(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2654
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 05:02

What effect would affricates becoming plain fricatives have on following vowels? Could they produce tone?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
darkness
darkness
Posts: 3829
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:25

So for /tSa/ → /Sa/ you're asking what might happen to /a/? I'd think it'd be more likely for the preceding vowel to be impacted, but that is just my gut. Nothing might happen to /a/.
Image
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2654
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:50

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:25
So for /tSa/ → /Sa/ you're asking what might happen to /a/? I'd think it'd be more likely for the preceding vowel to be impacted, but that is just my gut. Nothing might happen to /a/.
What would happen to the proceeding vowel?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
DesEsseintes
cleardarkness
cleardarkness
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 12:16

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:57

Shemtov wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:50
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:25
So for /tSa/ → /Sa/ you're asking what might happen to /a/? I'd think it'd be more likely for the preceding vowel to be impacted, but that is just my gut. Nothing might happen to /a/.
What would happen to the proceedingpreceding vowel?
Here’s a possible scenario: affricates get reanalysed as clusters and then the stop debuccalises:

Vt͡ʃ → Vtʃ → Vʔʃ

The glottal stop might then elide and leave tone behind:

Vʔʃ → V[+tone]ʃ

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)

Or the glottal stop could shorten the preceding vowel and thereby change its quality

Vʔʃ → V[-long]ʃ → V2ʃ

Etc.
User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
darkness
darkness
Posts: 3829
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 09:52

DesEsseintes wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:57
Here’s a possible scenario: affricates get reanalysed as clusters and then the stop debuccalises:

Vt͡ʃ → Vtʃ → Vʔʃ

The glottal stop might then elide and leave tone behind:

Vʔʃ → V[+tone]ʃ

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)

Or the glottal stop could shorten the preceding vowel and thereby change its quality

Vʔʃ → V[-long]ʃ → V2ʃ
I had no direct knowledge that I could share when I posted, but the above are similar to what my gut was telling me might be a thing. I was suspect of Shemtov's original question, as it seemed unlikely that a vowel separated by another phoneme would be impacted overmuch by the deletion of a consonant that wasn't even touching it. Assuming Des is answering the question as intended, this makes a lot more sense.
Image
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 18:37

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:55

DesEsseintes wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:57

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)
AIUI, it's argued that one is the result of a glottal stop, and the other is the result of a glottalised vowel (in this case resulting from a following glottal stop). However, since one can very easily become the other and in the case of historic languages there's no way to distinguish one from the other except by the later reflexes, this is effectively trivia in so far as the needs of conlang diachronics are concerned.
User avatar
DesEsseintes
cleardarkness
cleardarkness
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 12:16

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 14:15

Salmoneus wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:55
DesEsseintes wrote:
Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:57

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)
AIUI, it's argued that one is the result of a glottal stop, and the other is the result of a glottalised vowel (in this case resulting from a following glottal stop). However, since one can very easily become the other and in the case of historic languages there's no way to distinguish one from the other except by the later reflexes, this is effectively trivia in so far as the needs of conlang diachronics are concerned.
Thanks for the info. The high and low tone outcomes of Navajo and Apache were explained similarly if I remember correctly. Do you know if there’s attestation for a glottal stop fronting (probably not the right word here?) to pharyngeal which would then become creaky voice which in turn would cause a low tone?
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2408
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 27 Dec 2017, 10:47

Frislander wrote:
Sat 23 Dec 2017, 16:20
Omzinesý wrote:
Sat 23 Dec 2017, 15:06
Frislander wrote:
Sat 23 Dec 2017, 14:24
Omzinesý wrote:
Sat 23 Dec 2017, 13:09
What could cause a word-initial resonant consonant to become prestopped (if there aren't prefixes to make to consonant not be initial).
Do you need a reason? Just prestop initial resonants.
Of course I do!
I want to create phonemes, not change all of them.
Maybe just before oral vowels? Or maybe when glottalised?
I was thinking about someting like fortitation of onsets of syllables with short vowels. The problem is just that those moraic processes usually affect the codae.
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » Wed 27 Dec 2017, 12:55

Omzinesý wrote:
Wed 27 Dec 2017, 10:47
I was thinking about someting like fortitation of onsets of syllables with short vowels. The problem is just that those moraic processes usually affect the codae.
Ah right. Well I might suggest trying some stressed-based things, like perhaps prestopping before a stressed syllable (I don't think it's attested in natlangs but I do know that gemination before stressed syllables is a thing).
User avatar
LinguoFranco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2016, 16:49

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » Wed 27 Dec 2017, 18:28

Would it make much sense for /i/ and /u/ to lower to /e/ and /o/ whenever they are next to /x/?
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2408
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 27 Dec 2017, 18:54

LinguoFranco wrote:
Wed 27 Dec 2017, 18:28
Would it make much sense for /i/ and /u/ to lower to /e/ and /o/ whenever they are next to /x/?
That's typically how uvulars affect high vowels. So I think I depends how back your /x/ really is. Of course a uvular fricative can cause the mentioned sound change and then become velar /x/.
Ælfwine
greek
greek
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon 21 Sep 2015, 00:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 18:08

Could I change some of Latin's prepositions (e.g. ante-) to become preverbs/coverbs that could later on become grammaticalized as auxilary verbs? I was thinking of deriving my past tense this way, but I don't know how realistic it is.
My Blog
Current Projects:
Mannish — A North Germanic language spoken on the Calf of Man
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
User avatar
Lambuzhao
earth
earth
Posts: 7552
Joined: Sun 13 May 2012, 01:57

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 18:24

A) Sounds very interesting. How grammaticalized as 'pre/co-verbs'? Would they conjugate instead of the verb (following some kind of 'when 2 verbs go walking, only one does the talking' rule?). Would both conjugate (Naughty!) ?

B) Reminds me of Coptic. SOme of those pre/coverbs have to have come from PRPs. Especially ones like /menensa/, /ʃa/ and others I cannot arse myself to conjure out of Tattam's grammar. But some research thisaway might bear some comparative fruit.

Possibly also Middle Egyptian with the use of the PRP/Postclitic /ḫr/, and PRP /m/ coverbally.

Could you cast us a putative example, mayhaps?

[;)]
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2408
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 20:47

Ælfwine wrote:
Thu 28 Dec 2017, 18:08
Could I change some of Latin's prepositions (e.g. ante-) to become preverbs/coverbs that could later on become grammaticalized as auxilary verbs? I was thinking of deriving my past tense this way, but I don't know how realistic it is.
Please, give an example.
Ælfwine
greek
greek
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon 21 Sep 2015, 00:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 21:33

Something like

ante facto > anti=facto (this stage a coverb) > antifacto or factanto make-past-1ps

Here ante transitions from a preposition to coverb to an auxiliary and finally a morphological feature.

Not sure if I will go this route but it is interesting to play with Hungarian coverbs and preverbs.
My Blog
Current Projects:
Mannish — A North Germanic language spoken on the Calf of Man
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
User avatar
Pabappa
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat 18 Nov 2017, 02:41
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 21:55

Spanish -ía is from a verb that had once been before the main verb.... is that what converbs are? Some Italian dialects have a stronger form ...-ebbera, with various endings for different persons. Both are sufficed to the infinitive.

But I don't know how the same could happen with a preposition.... to get the person endings on, you'd have to get the speakers to start using the preposition as a verb.
Image
User avatar
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat 10 Jan 2015, 14:10

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Davush » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 01:08

Ælfwine wrote:
Thu 28 Dec 2017, 21:33
Something like

ante facto > anti=facto (this stage a coverb) > antifacto or factanto make-past-1ps

Here ante transitions from a preposition to coverb to an auxiliary and finally a morphological feature.

Not sure if I will go this route but it is interesting to play with Hungarian coverbs and preverbs.
First I would expect 'ante' to be used in a more adverbial sense - adverbs becoming grammaticalised as tense/aspect markers is quite common. I think this is more plausible in this particular case if we imagine a lot of non-Latin speakers learning this as an L2 over a short period of time, leading to simplification of Latin's quite complex past-tense forms.

Using English as an analogy:
'I went before' meaning 'I went a little while ago', taking this further you could get 'I go before' > I go.before with 'before' eventually becoming a tense marker.

I usually only hear 'coverb' when referring to Chinese preposition-like verbs and related structures which confused me slightly to begin with, as it appears you're asking about adverbs becoming affixes.

Wikipedia does say "In relation to Hungarian, coverb is sometimes used to denote a verb prefix.[3] They are elements that express meanings such as direction or completion and so have a function corresponding to that of certain types of adverbs."
User avatar
LinguoFranco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2016, 16:49

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 05:20

How would you handle fixed stress in a polysynthetic language? Let's say that the penultimate syllable is always stressed. Would this only affect the root of the word, or would each affix have a stress pattern? Does the root become unstressed, with the stress occurring instead on the next-to-last syllable of the sentence-word?
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2602
Joined: Sat 10 Nov 2012, 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 06:29

That varies from language to language. But fixed stress, on its own, isn't too complex because it's, well, fixed. When you say "the penultimate syllable is always stressed" with no further qualifitication, I think of your final interpretation, that the second-to-last syllable of the entire word receives stress, regardless of the word's structure. A language could place stress based on the derivational/inflectional structure of a word, for example putting stress on the penultimate syllable of the root. Any morpheme, including the root, could be affected by having or not having stress; that will also depend on the language. For natlangs, as well as conlangs with diachronics, historical sound changes are a big factor in the nature and extent of that effect.
User avatar
Pabappa
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat 18 Nov 2017, 02:41
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 06:51

Does the root become unstressed, with the stress occurring instead on the next-to-last syllable of the sentence-word?

Inuktitut says yes:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_phonology#Stress

Finnish, though not polysynthetic, has many long words, and manages with a fixed root stress (always initial). So you could go either way, but my instinct and the feeling I get from working with my own polysynthetic conlang is that fixed stress is the best ... Which for your language would be penultimate.
Image
Post Reply