How would you redesign IPA?

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How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Hominid » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 00:46

Obviously IPA should probably be left alone since it's universally recognized, but if you could make your own version of it, what would it be like?

I would use some Cyrillic letters, like ш and ж for the retroflex fricatives (I know they don't make those sounds in most languages, but it's very convenient and looks better than attaching tails to letters).
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Shemtov » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:53

Change the way coronal affricates are represented to single letter, mostly based on Americanist transcription-
/t͡s d͡z t͡ɬ d͡ɮ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ would be /c ⴛ* ƛ λ č ǰ/.
*From Nuskhuri Dzili
This would require a change in /c/- /ᶄ/ or /ḱ/
If there is a language attested anywhere that has /t͡ʃ̩ d͡ʒ̩ c̩/ or needs /j̩/ instead of /i/, then I would attach the Hacek to body of letter so /č̩/ won't be read as /t͡s̩˧˥/ or /ǰ̩/ as /j̩˧˥/.
Swap /ɯ ɤ/ with /ư ơ/.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 06:13

I think I would change the way tones are notated. I'm not sure what the best system would be, but at the least I would make it so that a rising tone doesn't use a v-like shape, but rather a ^-like one, and vice-versa. Other than that, I don't really see much need to change anything. Also, I find the above suggestion of affricates to be a horrendous one, IMO.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Aszev » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 10:01

Hominid wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 00:46
Obviously IPA should probably be left alone since it's universally recognized, but if you could make your own version of it, what would it be like?
I feel like this relates to so many of the discussions fueled by our common interest here [:D]
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Frislander » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 13:10

I would shift /æ/ and /a/ so that they are now the true open-front and open-mid vowels rather than the stupid English-centric situation we have now.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Adarain » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 18:18

On the vowel chart I would make the same adjustment that Frislander also wrote: make /æ/ the front and /a/ the central low vowels. This is basically how I see the letters used anyway though.

I would bring back the affricate letters ʦ etc, leaving the tiebar as an option for rare affricates (not encoded) or disambiguation (esp. in handwriting). Although I am fond of the americanist looks when it comes to coronals (especially č and ƛ), I don’t see a way to make those changes happen to the IPA.

I would finally add some additional symbols for laterals. ɭ̊˔ is rather silly for what could be simply ꞎ (which is in unicode, but not officially part of IPA!). Same with the palatal and velar laterals. I also feel like some of the sounds could really do with dedicated voiceless symbols, but I have no idea what non-diacritic-y modification could be made for them.

If I had to redesign it from the ground up, I’d try and make some fully featural system. Using the latin alphabet + modification is an unnecessary limitation.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 19:56

Adarain wrote:
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 18:18

I would finally add some additional symbols for laterals. ɭ̊˔ is rather silly for what could be simply ꞎ (which is in unicode, but not officially part of IPA!). Same with the palatal and velar laterals. I also feel like some of the sounds could really do with dedicated voiceless symbols, but I have no idea what non-diacritic-y modification could be made for them.
I think this will happen sometime soon.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Pabappa » Sun 18 Feb 2018, 07:10

Adarain wrote:
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 18:18
Although I am fond of the americanist looks when it comes to coronals (especially č and ƛ), I don’t see a way to make those changes happen to the IPA.

I would finally add some additional symbols for laterals. ɭ̊˔ is rather silly for what could be simply ꞎ (which is in unicode, but not officially part of IPA!). Same with the palatal and velar laterals. I also feel like some of the sounds could really do with dedicated voiceless symbols, but I have no idea what non-diacritic-y modification could be made for them.
oddly, plain lambda ( λ ) isn't used by the IPA ... even though a reversed lambda is. So that symbol could be used for something like that.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by GrandPiano » Sun 18 Feb 2018, 19:03

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 06:13
I think I would change the way tones are notated. I'm not sure what the best system would be, but at the least I would make it so that a rising tone doesn't use a v-like shape, but rather a ^-like one, and vice-versa.
Why is that? The current system makes sense to me. If [à] is low and [á] is high, then [ǎ] is low+high and [â] is high+low. (Similarly, [a᷅] is low+mid ([ā] being mid), [a᷄] is mid+high, and [a᷈] is low+high+low)
:eng: - Native
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 09:54

It just always seemed weird to me that an arrow pointing down is rising: [ǎ] and an arrow pointing up is falling: [â]. Other than that, no good reason.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by gestaltist » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 09:36

Creyeditor wrote:
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 19:56
Adarain wrote:
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 18:18

I would finally add some additional symbols for laterals. ɭ̊˔ is rather silly for what could be simply ꞎ (which is in unicode, but not officially part of IPA!). Same with the palatal and velar laterals. I also feel like some of the sounds could really do with dedicated voiceless symbols, but I have no idea what non-diacritic-y modification could be made for them.
I think this will happen sometime soon.
Just as soon as linguists agree on one set of features... so never.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 13:01

Yeah, because linguists also never agreed on the IPA. It just didn't catch on. And there were no reforms to IPA, never ever ever. \irony off
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by alynnidalar » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:56

Shemtov wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:53
Change the way coronal affricates are represented to single letter, mostly based on Americanist transcription-
/t͡s d͡z t͡ɬ d͡ɮ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ would be /c ⴛ* ƛ λ č ǰ/.
I'm curious why you'd do this. The current method (with the tie bar) makes it immediately clear that these are affricates, and also clearly indicates what kind of affricate they are. It's a great deal more obvious that /t/, /s/, and /t͡s/ are closely related than /t/, /s/, and /c/. What advantage does your suggestion offer?
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Shemtov » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 18:08

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Tue 20 Feb 2018, 09:54
It just always seemed weird to me that an arrow pointing down is rising: [ǎ] and an arrow pointing up is falling: [â]. Other than that, no good reason.
I've always thought of it as the direction of the right-most half of the arrow.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Shemtov » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 18:17

alynnidalar wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:56
Shemtov wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:53
Change the way coronal affricates are represented to single letter, mostly based on Americanist transcription-
/t͡s d͡z t͡ɬ d͡ɮ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ would be /c ⴛ* ƛ λ č ǰ/.
I'm curious why you'd do this. The current method (with the tie bar) makes it immediately clear that these are affricates, and also clearly indicates what kind of affricate they are. It's a great deal more obvious that /t/, /s/, and /t͡s/ are closely related than /t/, /s/, and /c/. What advantage does your suggestion offer?
I'm proposing a two-IPA system, an International Phonemic Alphabet, without tie-bars, and an International Phonetic Alphabet, which would use the tie-bars.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by alynnidalar » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 21:28

That... still doesn't really explain your reasoning.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Shemtov » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 00:29

alynnidalar wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 21:28
That... still doesn't really explain your reasoning.
Because Phonemically, affricates, especially coronal ones, are one sound. If you tell the non-linguistically inclined English speaker that the first sound in <Jack> is a combonation of /d/ and /ʒ/, they either won't believe you, or it will blow their mind. Same goes for Israelis and the first sound in /t͡sahal/ "IDF". This shows that phonemically, they are one sound, and it is only phonetically that they are a sequence. There is a reason we analyze <George> /d͡ʒoɹd͡ʒ/ as CVCC and not CCVCCC.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 00:57

But isn't that precisely what the tiebar is for? To indicate that though they are a sequence, they are treated as a unit? Much like diphthongs are treated as a single vowel in most situations unless morae or length is sometimes adjusted for them...
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Curlyjimsam » Sat 24 Mar 2018, 20:49

alynnidalar wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 21:28
That... still doesn't really explain your reasoning.
The IPA isn't just, or even mainly, about showing relationships between sounds. (If it were, there'd be no voiced/voiceless pairs - one could just use diacritics.) Ease of reading and writing is also a big factor, and single symbols for affricates would in many cases be easier to type (and arguably aesthetically more appealing).
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Birdlang » Fri 06 Apr 2018, 13:41

Change ʧ and ʤ to č and ǯ. Basically and change other stuff. Like ä to ϧ which is from Greek.
All the affricates would be single letters, like Shemtov suggested. I agree with them.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
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