Yabushio: timeline

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Salmoneus
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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by Salmoneus » 08 Feb 2015 16:25

The thing that seems odd to me: why would America grant it independence after the war, rather than just making it part of the empire? [Like the Marianas, the Ryukyus, Wake, Midway, Micronesia, etc]

America didn't start surrendering its conquests until the 1970s, and in some cases then only due to Vietnam (the Ryukyus, as the base for the vietnam airstrikes and as a nuclear missile site, were the location of huge protests (the natives and the japanese didn't want china to invade them if the war escalated). And despite theoretical return to Japan, they're still essentially under american occupation (20% of Okinawa's land area is directly ruled by America still, and Americans enjoy effective extraterritoriality).

Some of these places are still American - the Marianas, for instance.

Could be a fascinating opportunity for your islands. At the very least, you could get a nice veneer of post-war American capitalism onto the japanese underlay. Or you could go the whole Marianas route (essentially the wild west, corporate dictatorship, slave labour, sex tourism, etc). Adds a little spice.

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by clawgrip » 08 Feb 2015 16:45

Yeah, something I will have to think about. I wonder if a 95-year old unequal treaty with the United Kingdom would help gain them independence after the war. I could be wrong, but I don't think any of the places you mentioned that became territories of the US had a valid treaty with any Western nation at the time they were annexed, nor, aside from Okinawa probably, a comparable population (I am imagining a relatively high population density for this country).

I guess Yabushio could possibly be in a strategic position for the Korean War, so it is possible that the US might try to take it over like they did Okinawa, but if the treaty with the UK remained in effect, that might complicate things, if the UK and Yabushio still considered it valid, or if there were any further mutual defense/support agreements made between 1848 and 1945.

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by Bristel » 10 Feb 2015 03:26

Since this was decided already, I'm not sure if my input is going to help, but I think a feudal system that the daimyō belonged to would be considered a "fiefdom" in English. But it seems the related words in translations might be "domain", so I guess it's both correct. I just like the way "constitutional fiefdom" sounds. LOL

I like the history behind Yabushio, and especially the retained daimyō as a leader in a modern setting.

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by k1234567890y » 10 Feb 2015 05:58

is it possible that Yabushionese people simply managed to fight against Japanese invasion even though they had considerably lesser population, and their resistance was so strong that made the Meiji government of Japan cancel the plan to take over Yabushio? Also, is it possible that Yabushio has/had a militia-based system like Switzerland, or is it possible that every male and female of Yabushio of certain age is/was required to serve in the military for several years like Israel?

also, for the population, if the population density of Yabushio is roughly as same as "real" Oki islands, the population of Yabushio would be about 85,000; however, it is possible that the main island of Yabushio, Yabushiojima, actually has more population and the population density of Yabushiojima is actually higher than the Oki island parts. How do most Yabushionese people make a living? mining? agriculture? fishing? tourism? or something else?
...

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by clawgrip » 10 Feb 2015 13:51

Thanks, everyone, you've given me some things to think about. There are several questions that need answering.

1. Was the feudal Japanese caste system (samurai - farmers - artisans - merchants ( - burakumin)) abolished earlier or later?
It was suggested that there may have been a bunch of lower class people living here, and the Oki islands were really a destination for exiles, so we can imagine there might be some dislike of the system. However, I can't imagine the samurai class would just decide to give up their status and become equals with people so low they're not even in the system. The actual Japanese samurai fought a war (and lost) rather than giving up their status. I can't think of any motivation these people would have to give it up, though surely the post-WW2 constitution would eliminate it.

If the caste system remains until the 20th century, then there would be no Swiss-style system, because only the samurai would be trained for combat, though due to their more open society, the 19th century Yabushionese samurai would likely be much more modern than the Japanese samurai we imagine. Maybe something in their foreign relations could cause the caste system to weaken or change...maybe there just weren't enough samurai to make a useful military and navy, so they had to recruit from below, especially with the prospect that the warrior class might have to actually fight wars with foreigners.

Incidentally, I think the abolition of the caste system would preclude the use of the description "constitutional fiefdom" (even though I like the sound of this name too). Constitutional domain is still kind of feudal and old-timey sounding, but at the same time, general enough that it doesn't imply the existence of a caste system or otherwise non-(modern) democratic social structure, the way that "fiefdom" does.

I don't think the Japanese army would give up in a war against Yabushio, though. Look at the Russo-Japanese war to see just what kind of war of attrition they are willing to fight. Yabushio would be destroyed.

2. Why does Yabushio gain independence after World War II?
Salmoneus pointed out that there has been no justification given for this, comparing it to Okinawa and such. I figured that the British treaty of 1848, unfair as it may have been, still placed Yabushio as an ally of the UK. As a result, since a major Allied power has recognized its status as a nation, the US may not be so quick to annex it themselves. Most importantly, however, is the fact that, as far as I can gather, every single territory annexed by Japan during World War II was returned to its former status at the end of the war (or made even more independent than before, e.g. Indonesia). Okinawa, Taiwan, and Korea were all more complicated because they were annexed much earlier (1879, 1895, 1910 respectively). So I think there is a strong case for Yabushio being liberated with the rest. That being said, I think the allies are sure to have a hand in guiding the country and writing its constitution.

3. What is the population of Yabushio?
As k1234567890y points out, the real Oki Islands are fairly sparsely populated. However, this is surely because of their extreme remoteness from the major population and business centres of Japan. If Yabushio is its own country, then it is sure to have a much higher population. How much higher though, I don't know yet.

4. What kind of employment do people have?
I figure these islands are too small to have much in the way of natural resources that they can trade with other countries. By the modern age, they won't be able to rely on silver resources as they did in the feudal period. Ketumak suggested that it is a tax-haven with high-tech companies. k1234567890y suggests mining, agriculture, fishing, and tourism as possible occupations. I think mining might be waning at this point, but the others seem viable.

There may be other questions to ask and answer as well. If anyone feels like giving some more suggestions or comments, I would definitely appreciate the input.

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by shimobaatar » 10 Feb 2015 19:20

I agree that the leaders of Yabushio would be unlikely to completely abolish the caste system, but on account of all the exiles and such living in the country, do you think they might decide to reduce it somewhat in order to keep the majority of the population happy? As in "daimyō - samurai - everyone else" or something similar? I also agree that the size difference between Yabushio and Japan (in both land area and population) is also something to keep in mind when considering the differences in the two countries' caste systems.

Personally, "fiefdom" still sounds too feudal and too European to be part of the official name of the country, but that's just my opinion.

And yes, the Japanese would not be likely to retreat or give up easily on defeating/conquering Yabushio (or anywhere else, really).

If the treaty with Britain is what's stopping the US from annexing Yabushio, why wouldn't the UK annex it instead?

Would mining and silver no longer be such important industries in the modern era because the demand for silver would be lower, or because the silver deposits had been depleted earlier and not enough silver would be left by modern times?

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by clawgrip » 11 Feb 2015 02:48

shimobaatar wrote:I agree that the leaders of Yabushio would be unlikely to completely abolish the caste system, but on account of all the exiles and such living in the country, do you think they might decide to reduce it somewhat in order to keep the majority of the population happy? As in "daimyō - samurai - everyone else" or something similar? I also agree that the size difference between Yabushio and Japan (in both land area and population) is also something to keep in mind when considering the differences in the two countries' caste systems.
I wll have to consider the options for this.
Personally, "fiefdom" still sounds too feudal and too European to be part of the official name of the country, but that's just my opinion.
Fiefdom doesn't really sound too European to me, because the word fief is the regular translation for 封土 when discussing the Japanese feudal system. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because a fief directly implies a caste system.
If the treaty with Britain is what's stopping the US from annexing Yabushio, why wouldn't the UK annex it instead?
I'm trying to work out how this would work. The UK granted independence to a whole lot of its colonial possessions between the 40s and 70s, so perhaps it would make more sense if Yabushio gained independence in the 50s or 60s or so. I will have to investigate the various reasons these colonial possessions got their independence.
Would mining and silver no longer be such important industries in the modern era because the demand for silver would be lower, or because the silver deposits had been depleted earlier and not enough silver would be left by modern times?
I was thinking the latter. If they've been mining silver for at least 300 years, it's got to be running out by that time.

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by k1234567890y » 11 Feb 2015 14:34

Probably most Yabushio people actually work and live in Japan(most likely), (South) Korea, China, Russia, etc., like what Maltese do(I have heard that most Maltese people actually work and live overseas, that is, there are more Maltese people living overseas than in Malta)?

Also, I have an idea to create another small island which is near to Yabushio and is heavily influenced by Japan and Yabushio but is actually an independent country, and the people of the island speak a language derived from Korean or Ainu rather than Japanese...
...

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Re: Yabushio (treaty)

Post by Lao Kou » 11 Feb 2015 14:59

k1234567890y wrote:Also, I have an idea to create another small island which is near to Yabushio and is heavily influenced by Japan and Yabushio but is actually an independent country
Sea of Japan -- going like hotcakes. [xD]
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Re: Yabushio

Post by clawgrip » 13 Apr 2015 13:19

I'm trying to work out the population of the country. I'm thinking it will be relatively dense, like pretty much all of the countries of South/Southeast/East Asia, so maybe somewhere around 1 to 1.4 million people or so, giving it a population density of maybe 820-1200 people/km². somewhere around Malta/Bermuda/Bangladesh/Maldives and higher than Mauritius or Taiwan. It would rank within the top 15 in the world, but it's not insane like Hong Kong, Singapore, or Malta, and still a fair bit behind Bahrain. I think in order to justify having an independent air force in addition to the army and navy/coast guard, I will need at least that many people.

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Re: Yabushio

Post by clawgrip » 13 Apr 2015 14:19

I've also been thinking about what kind of air force they will have. My thoughts are that they will have around 1 or 2 F-16 Fighting Falcons as their only attack aircraft (they seem reasonably priced and quite popular, but I'm no expert). Everything else will be transport craft and the like.

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Re: Yabushio: determining the population and geography

Post by clawgrip » 15 Apr 2015 14:29

Okay, I'm trying now to calculate the population of Yabushio and a rough idea of population distribution. If I go with a total population of 1.4 million, and we know that Okinoshima Department is 28% of the land mass and Yabushiojima Department is 72%, then assuming entirely even population distribution, this would give them populations of approximately 392,000 and 1,008,000 respectively (I think the two departments on my map are slightly out of proportion...will have to look into it). Due to the split nature of the country, I think I want there to be a relatively large city in each department though, so I will probably have to shift some of that population over to Okinoshima. Okinoshima Department will probably be dominated by the city of Ama, while Yabushiojima Department will have some medium-sized cities plus one larger one.

Another fun thing I'm looking into is the names, number, and size of the municipalities. The real-world Oki archipelago has only three towns and one village, but looking into the history of municipal mergers, I found that the three towns all came into existence through mergers of several villages each. The town of Nishinoshima used to be five different villages, the town of Ama was eight villages, and the town of Okinoshima, which covers the entire largest island, was once 48 separate villages.

With a population significantly larger than the real-world Oki islands and a much higher level of importance in the country, the map is sure to look quite different. The towns are all preserved as place names for modern Japanese addresses, so I can easily get accurate information on their borders. So once I get a handle on the population and population centres, I can determine which villages will undergo mergers.

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Re: Yabushio: determining the population and geography

Post by clawgrip » 15 Apr 2015 15:58

Reproportioned map (Yabushiojima department was too small before)

Image

Too lazy to deal with the messed up water patterns right now.

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Re: Yabushio: determining the population and geography

Post by clawgrip » 15 Apr 2015 16:25

Just running a bunch of posts and calculations here to get my ideas down.

The real Oki islands have a population of 20,405 people. The municipalities are as follows:
Okinoshima: 14,563
Nishinoshima: 2,915
Ama: 2,331
Chibu: 596

If the population is expanded from 20,405 to 392,000, as posited before, then the populations would become:
Okinoshima: 279,769
Nishinoshima: 56,000
Ama: 44,780
Chibu: 11,449

If I steal, say, 15,000 people or so from Yabushiojima Dept, this gives me a population of 407,000, giving:
Okinoshima: 290,475
Nishinoshima: 59,143
Ama: 46,494
Chibu: 11,888

I want to make Ama the main city mainly because I like the name better than Nishinoshima. They're of comparable size, so it's no big deal. Anyway, if I account for the draw of Ama as a major population centre, we will see a drain on Nishinoshima and especially Chibu. If I steal 75% of Chibu's population and 35% of Nishinoshima's population and stick them all in Ama, I get:

Okinoshima: 290,475
Nishinoshima: 37,793
Ama: 75,760
Chibu: 2,972

Of course, Okinoshima, Nishinoshima, and Ama will all be further subdivided into more cities and towns, so the population will spread out a bit. I want to give Ama a six-digit population, so if I take 30,000 from Okinoshima and give it to Ama, I get:
Okinoshima: 260,475
Ama: 105,760

This still leaves 993,000 in Yabushiojima Department. A major portion of this will be in the capital, Tadzuru. If I say it has approximately 450,000 people, that leaves 543,000 to be spread out elsewhere. I have two other major cities, Kurashiba and Morio, but I want them to have populations comparable to Ama, so maybe around 100,000 each. If I give each one 100,000, that leaves me with 343,000 to populate the various smaller towns of Yabushiojima. I think this seems reasonable enough.

Rough stats:
Tadzuru: 450,000
Ama: 110,000
Morio: 100,000
Kurashiba: 90,000
Nishinoshima: 37,000
Chibu: 3000

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Re: Yabushio: determining the population and geography

Post by Salmoneus » 16 Apr 2015 01:23

That seems like a very flat distribution of the middle-ranked cities. Any reason?

Zipf would give:
Tadzuru: 450,000
Ama: 225,000
Morio: 150,000
Kurashiba: 112,500
Nishinoshima: 90,000

Now it's true that in a 'colonial' situation, where there's a close connexion to a much larger economy, your primate city can be much larger than Zipf requires. So the gap between Tadzuru and Ama isn't necessarily a problem. But it is odd to me that you're taking disproportionally away from the larger cities: your Ama is less than half the size it 'ought' to be, while your Kurashiba is only slightly smaller. I'd have expected the decline to be more regular. If anything, as Ama is the capital of its own region, it might be slightly bigger than expected relative to Kurashiba and Morio?

There's nothing inherently impossible in what you have, of course - every country is different. But it might be worth thinking about: why are the secondary cities of the country so unnaturally similar in size?

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Re: Yabushio: determining the population and geography

Post by clawgrip » 16 Apr 2015 01:27

Thanks for the feedback. I was not quite sure about the populations, so if it's unrealistic, I don't mind adjusting it as you suggest. The numbers you have suggested look fairly good. There's also Okinoshima though, which I haven't factored in yet. I only have the population estimate for the entire island, rather than the city itself. I'll have to read up on Zipf's law and figure out how that fits in as well.

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Re: Yabushio: determining the population and geography

Post by clawgrip » 17 Apr 2015 07:46

I've worked out the system of administrative division. It's inspired by but different from the Japanese system. Each Department will have two tiers below it. I've divided up the country into 93 separate municipal divisions, the majority of which are quite small. I will calculate the population of each one, and then form the upper-tier municipalities based on population and geography. The larger upper tier municipalities will be called 市 shi ("city"), and the municipalities below shi will be called 區 ku ("ward"). The smaller upper-tier municipalities will be called 郡 gun ("county"), and the municipalities below gun will be 町 machi ("town") and 村 mura ("village"), population being the main difference between the two. Shi and gun will have municipal governments, ku will have limited municipal governments, while machi and mura won't have any local government. Machi might have a local branch office of the county government, but that's it. I've completed the lower-tier municipality map, but I want to wait until the upper tier is complete before posting the map.

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Re: Yabushio: municipality map

Post by clawgrip » 18 Apr 2015 18:15

Here is a map of the administrative districts. Coloured areas indicate the upper-tier divisions, while the numbered divisions mark the lower-tier divisions. I added the numbers in before the upper-tier was decided, so that's why they don't match up nicely. I'm just too lazy to go back and redo them right now.

Image

As I mentioned before, 市 -shi means city, while 郡 -gun means county. The populations are all roughly established, but I want to do some more fiddling, so I have not determined which lower-tier divisions are towns and which are villages. There are also a couple upper-tier municipalities whose status has not yet been decided.

藪鹽島省 Yabushiojima-shō

大土郡 Ofodo-gun
1. 誼氣 Kotoke
3. 山下 Yamashita
4. 熊瀧 Kumantaki
5. 曽田 Soda
30. 篠井 Shinoi
6. 若松原 Wakamatsubara
7. 重津野 Omotsuno
8. 阿部 Abe
9. 美利 Yoshitoshi
10. 存意 Zoni
11. 飯坂 Īsaka
12. 崖 Fake
13. 本匠 Fonjọ̄

田鶴市 Tadzuru-shi
2. 田尻 Tajiri
28. 徳利 Tokuri
29. 中条 Nakasuji
31. 宿 Yado
32. 屯坂 Donzaka
33. 田鶴 Tadzuru
34. 鵜島 Ujima
35. 汐入 Shīri
38. 方須 Fōsu

間波郡 Kanba-gun
14. 丹下田 Tangeda
15. 大江 Ofoye
16. 和泉 Idzumi
17. 有島 Arishima
18. 堀口 Foriguchi
19. 豊濱 Toyofama
20. 間波 Kanba
21. 札が辻 Fudagatsuji
22. 野良原 Norabara
23. 末田 Sēda
24. 坩が谷 Tsubogaya
25. 本部 Motobu
26. 真柴 Mashiba
27. 不來内 Kozunai
56. 笹山 Sasayama
57. 戸澤 Tozawa
58. 鹿目 Kanome

倉芝市 Kurashiba-shi
36. 満田 Manda
37. 倉芝 Kurashiba
39. 事見 Kotomi
40. 相賀北 Aiga-Kita
41. 勝海 Katsumi
42. 龍島 Ryūjima
43. 相賀南 Aiga-Minami
44. 那岡 Naoka
45. 諸里 Morozato

干支原郡 Yetobara-gun
46. 岱平 Taifei
47. 高瀬 Takase
48. 古山桑門 Furuyama-Kuọkado
49. 古山小池 Furuyama-Koike
50. 西葦田 Nishi-Ashida
51. 東葦田 Figashi-Ashida
52. 峩伊 Gai
53. 木 Ki
54. 馬坂 Bazaka

守保市 Morio-shi
55. 土路 Doro
59. 屈足 Kuttari
60. 須部 Sube
61. 岩谷 Yọ̄ya
62. 尼野 Amano
63. 守保 Morio
64. 宇多野 Utano
65. 和田 Wada
66. 大釈迦 Daishaka
67. 番屋 Banya

隠岐の島省 Okinoshima-shō

郡(市/郡) Kofori (-shi or -gun)
68. 郡 Kofori
69. 代 Dai
70. 久見 Kumi
71. 伊後 Igo

元屋郡 Ganya-gun
72. 西 Nishi
73. 元屋 Ganya
74. 飯美 Ībi

東郷市 Tōgọ̄-shi
75. 布施 Fuse
76. 卯敷 Uzuki
77. 原田 Farada
78. 東郷 Tōgọ̄
79. 犬來 Inugu
80. 今津 Imadzu

都万(市/郡) Tsuma (-shi or -gun)
81. 蛸木 Takugi
82. 都万 Tsuma
83. 上西 Kaminishi
84. 那久 Naku
85. 北方 Kitagata

海士市 Ama-shi
86. 宇受賀 Uzuka
87. 海士 Ama
88. 福井 Fukī
89. 知々井 Chichī

別府(市/郡) Beppu (-shi or -gun)
90. 宇賀 Uka
91. 本 Moto

西の島群 Nishinoshima-gun
92. 浦郷 Uragọ̄
93. 知夫 Chibu
Last edited by clawgrip on 19 Apr 2015 16:45, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Yabushio: municipality map

Post by Creyeditor » 18 Apr 2015 19:08

I think the 'not-matching-up-nicely' could very well be explained, if the different divisions stem from different times. That's the way it is in Germany, sometimes at least.
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Re: Yabushio: municipality map

Post by clawgrip » 19 Apr 2015 02:13

Well I just numbered the towns from north to south in order, before I decided anything about the upper tier. The numbers are only there as a convenient way to list the names, since I couldn't fit them in the map, but they're not really that important.

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