World genres

Discussions about constructed worlds, cultures and any topics related to constructed societies.
HoskhMatriarch
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 May 2015 17:48

World genres

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 20 Mar 2016 05:17

People on the worldbuilding forum on Reddit are always quick to give their worlds genres. I had no problem with this, until I learned that apparently "fantasy, because magic" isn't specific enough and I have to give my world a more specific genre like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or something. I couldn't figure out what to label my world as, because sometimes there's a lot of really flamboyant magic with flying through the air and slaying dragons with flaming swords, but most of the time there isn't, and most of the time the average person doesn't come across any more magic than the kind of thing you'd find in Pow-Wows; or, the Long-Lost Friend or in the rituals of local witches or shamans (who do often have more flamboyant magic than what magic in cultures on Earth consists of, but it still isn't a central part of the lives of the average person). Then I thought, isn't it stories that should have genres, not worlds? I wouldn't say the planet Earth is nonfiction or realistic fiction, just that stories that are nonfiction or realistic fiction (as well as many from pretty much every genre) are set on Earth. So if we say stories have genres rather than the settings they take place in, some of the stories in my world are high fantasy and some are low fantasy (although probably leaning towards low fantasy because flying through the air or slaying dragons with flaming swords or talking to elves is considered out of the ordinary). Saying settings have genres comes across like saying the Black Forest is a fairy tale or Mount Olympus is a Greek myth to me. Those places are settings suited to those kinds of stories, but they don't actually possess those genres themselves.
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light

Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2556
Joined: 22 May 2012 02:05

Re: World genres

Post by Keenir » 20 Mar 2016 05:28

HoskhMatriarch wrote:People on the worldbuilding forum on Reddit are always quick to give their worlds genres.
you might want to steer clear of Reddit, HoshkM. Every time you go there, you come back here with a "everyone says UVW isn't a valid Y, so I can't XZ." or words to that effect.
I had no problem with this, until I learned that apparently "fantasy, because magic" isn't specific enough and I have to give my world a more specific genre like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or something. I couldn't figure out what to label my world as,
then don't.
Saying settings have genres comes across like saying the Black Forest is a fairy tale or Mount Olympus is a Greek myth to me. Those places are settings suited to those kinds of stories,
cart's being put before the horse - Greek myths are set on Mt. Olympus, not vice versa.
(i think the mountain also figures in Orthodox Christianity as well)
but they don't actually possess those genres themselves.
this discussion feels familiar; but I think this time its not one of your previous threads.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3357
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: World genres

Post by elemtilas » 20 Mar 2016 05:44

HoskhMatriarch wrote:People on the worldbuilding forum on Reddit are always quick to give their worlds genres. I had no problem with this, until I learned that apparently "fantasy, because magic" isn't specific enough and I have to give my world a more specific genre like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or something.
It really does seem like everyone on Reddit (whatever that is) is very quick to tell everyone else how to do things. Perhaps consider taking it with a grain or three of Morton's iodized?

Do yourself a big favor and ignore them when whatever it is they're telling you to do today doesn't sit well with you. You know your world and your own mind and the direction(s) your imagination will take this world better than they do. (And better than any of us here do, too!) Just do your own thing and they'll either like it or they won't.
I couldn't figure out what to label my world as, because sometimes there's a lot of really flamboyant magic with flying through the air and slaying dragons with flaming swords, but most of the time there isn't, and most of the time the average person doesn't come across any more magic than the kind of thing you'd find in Pow-Wows; or, the Long-Lost Friend or in the rituals of local witches or shamans (who do often have more flamboyant magic than what magic in cultures on Earth consists of, but it still isn't a central part of the lives of the average person). Then I thought, isn't it stories that should have genres, not worlds?
Yes, stories (and particularly those marketed towards a broad public readership) do come in genres, and those genres are pretty well defined pigeonholes. But worlds and settings can also, though perhaps a little more perilously, be categorised.
I wouldn't say the planet Earth is nonfiction or realistic fiction, just that stories that are nonfiction or realistic fiction (as well as many from pretty much every genre) are set on Earth.
True. We had a discussion much like this a while back. I tend to agree with you that an otherworld is a place for stories to happen in, and if the visionary of that world has rooted around deeply and broadly enough, it may be possible to set stories of many genres within it.
So if we say stories have genres rather than the settings they take place in, some of the stories in my world are high fantasy and some are low fantasy (although probably leaning towards low fantasy because flying through the air or slaying dragons with flaming swords or talking to elves is considered out of the ordinary). Saying settings have genres comes across like saying the Black Forest is a fairy tale or Mount Olympus is a Greek myth to me. Those places are settings suited to those kinds of stories, but they don't actually possess those genres themselves.
I think they're more leaning towards a descriptive terminology pertinent to otherworlds, rather than story genres. World genres seem to be things like "alternate history", "real world (.i. Earth)", "alternate Earth" and so forth. Rather than saying the Black Forest is a fairy tale, I might say that "the Old Forest is a perilous place, a fairie; indeed a faerie in the old school "bone-and-blood" way". A fairy tale might happen ìn the Old Woods (and most certainly nòt of the Disney persuasion), but is not per se a fairy tale. Saying that it is "a faerie" -- a realm of the Lovely Folk -- sets the reader up for some interesting and most certainly rated R adventures!

I think also that some terms, particularly "fantasy" and "sci-fi" will overlap. In other words, they can name genres of both worlds and stories. I'm sure there is much other overlap, and just because a world has the label "sci-fi" does not mean one can not tell a perfectly good mythological epic in it!
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1607
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 18:37

Re: World genres

Post by Salmoneus » 20 Mar 2016 14:03

HoskhMatriarch wrote:People on the worldbuilding forum on Reddit are always quick to give their worlds genres.
Oh good, it's the weekly "(invisible imaginary) people say... so tell me I'm right and they're all idiots" thread. How we've all missed it. Is anyone taking bets on what undefined "people on reddit" will tell Hoskh next? Has anyone looked to see what they're telling people on reddit that "people on a conlanging forum" have ordered them to do?
I had no problem with this, until I learned that apparently "fantasy, because magic" isn't specific enough and I have to give my world a more specific genre like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or something.
Yes, I hate it when people come to my house and hold daggers to my throat and force me to participate in reddit arguments.
Then I thought, isn't it stories that should have genres, not worlds? I wouldn't say the planet Earth is nonfiction or realistic fiction, just that stories that are nonfiction or realistic fiction (as well as many from pretty much every genre) are set on Earth. Saying settings have genres comes across like saying the Black Forest is a fairy tale or Mount Olympus is a Greek myth to me. Those places are settings suited to those kinds of stories, but they don't actually possess those genres themselves.
The difference is that, and I appreciate that this is a minor point and perhaps too technical for the layman to understand, but it's worth trying to wrap your head around: Earth is real and your conworld isn't.
The Eart is made out of mud, and rock, and sky and atoms and photons, and occasionally cheese. We can then tell stories about these things - some true stories, some false. A conworld is made out of stories. There is no reality to it: it is only a collection of stories that you tell, whether those stories are in the form of novels or in the form of pretend histories narrated via forum posts. A conworld is an anthology of stories, and if it makes sense to ask what genre the stories are in, it makes sense to ask what genre the anthology is in.
Although of course, and again this might be difficult, genres are not black-and-white or objective, but only descriptive shorthand subjectively, interpretatively, applied, and there will be many stories and collections of stories that blur or cross lines.

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5699
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: World genres

Post by Lao Kou » 20 Mar 2016 15:17

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:I couldn't figure out what to label my world as,
then don't.
[+1] It really is that simple.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

cntrational
roman
roman
Posts: 953
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 03:59

Re: World genres

Post by cntrational » 20 Mar 2016 16:38

elemtilas wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:People on the worldbuilding forum on Reddit are always quick to give their worlds genres. I had no problem with this, until I learned that apparently "fantasy, because magic" isn't specific enough and I have to give my world a more specific genre like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or something.
It really does seem like everyone on Reddit (whatever that is) is very quick to tell everyone else how to do things. Perhaps consider taking it with a grain or three of Morton's iodized?

Do yourself a big favor and ignore them when whatever it is they're telling you to do today doesn't sit well with you. You know your world and your own mind and the direction(s) your imagination will take this world better than they do. (And better than any of us here do, too!) Just do your own thing and they'll either like it or they won't.
I actually go to the subreddits Hoskh is talking about.

They don't tell anybody anything. Sure, they might give advice like this on request, but Hoskh is actually reading into what they're doing and drawing conclusions. She's not asking us to disprove them, she's asking us to prove that they're doing worldbuilding wrong.

User avatar
rajavlitra
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 67
Joined: 17 Jan 2015 03:11
Contact:

Re: World genres

Post by rajavlitra » 20 Mar 2016 23:37

>reddit

Guffaw
If anyone has asked what I tend to draw on my pc, it's mountains. Fucking mountains. (dA | tumblr)

Image

User avatar
Avjunza
sinic
sinic
Posts: 295
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 07:18
Location: Aotearoa

Re: World genres

Post by Avjunza » 21 Mar 2016 00:43

cntrational wrote:
elemtilas wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:People on the worldbuilding forum on Reddit are always quick to give their worlds genres. I had no problem with this, until I learned that apparently "fantasy, because magic" isn't specific enough and I have to give my world a more specific genre like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or something.
It really does seem like everyone on Reddit (whatever that is) is very quick to tell everyone else how to do things. Perhaps consider taking it with a grain or three of Morton's iodized?

Do yourself a big favor and ignore them when whatever it is they're telling you to do today doesn't sit well with you. You know your world and your own mind and the direction(s) your imagination will take this world better than they do. (And better than any of us here do, too!) Just do your own thing and they'll either like it or they won't.
I actually go to the subreddits Hoskh is talking about.

They don't tell anybody anything. Sure, they might give advice like this on request, but Hoskh is actually reading into what they're doing and drawing conclusions. She's not asking us to disprove them, she's asking us to prove that they're doing worldbuilding wrong.
Reddit is inherently flawed because of the voting system; everything is rated by the community as a whole, and even in the smaller subs like r/worldbuilding it makes a serious impression on young people just getting into the hobby. As they learn about conworlding, they're learning that they will be downvoted and possibly ridiculed if they don't make their conworld appeal to everyone. Many of them they don't have anywhere else to share their work, so their only experience of conworlding is to have every single part they share to be judged and rated, often with very little feedback.
Image

cntrational
roman
roman
Posts: 953
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 03:59

Re: World genres

Post by cntrational » 21 Mar 2016 00:54

Yeah, sure. But Hoskh is still being misleading. Standard etiquette in the worldbuilding subreddit is to downvote unproductive or rude things, not things you disagree with. Rude comments will be moderated and banned, just like they would be here.

If Hoskh got a lot of downvotes, it was for behavior. You think she doesn't act so arrogant about things there too?

HoskhMatriarch
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 May 2015 17:48

Re: World genres

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 21 Mar 2016 17:32

I must act different there, because I tend to get upvotes. Not massive amounts of them, but upvotes nevertheless...
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4544
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: World genres

Post by Creyeditor » 21 Mar 2016 18:22

What about everyone being nice a bit and actually talking about world genres? Are there any? Is there a generally accepted clasification? What do you think about your own conworld? Does it fit into any category? Do you think that stories of different story genres can work in one conworld?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2556
Joined: 22 May 2012 02:05

Re: World genres

Post by Keenir » 21 Mar 2016 19:19

HoskhMatriarch wrote:I must act different there, because I tend to get upvotes. Not massive amounts of them, but upvotes nevertheless...
then please do two things:
[*]behave that well here.
[*]post as much of your conlang and conworld here that you seem to have done on Reddit.
cntrational wrote:They don't tell anybody anything. Sure, they might give advice like this on request, but Hoskh is actually reading into what they're doing and drawing conclusions. She's not asking us to disprove them, she's asking us to prove that they're doing worldbuilding wrong.
While its a good idea, imho, to read through others' conlangs and conworlds for ideas, and to use that to spark inspiration for new conlangs and conworlds....its not a good idea to take up arms against others' conlangs and conworlds - at best, you look idiocentric; at worst, a troll.

Build your own conworld, HoshkM.; do that, okay?
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3225
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: World genres

Post by sangi39 » 21 Mar 2016 19:44

Creyeditor wrote:What about everyone being nice a bit and actually talking about world genres? Are there any? Is there a generally accepted clasification? What do you think about your own conworld? Does it fit into any category? Do you think that stories of different story genres can work in one conworld?
I think there's probably two main approaches to this:

1) Developing the world first, then writing stories set there, and
2) Developing the story first, fitting the world around it,

... and even then there's probably a degree of overlap.

The first option probably allows you to write a number of stories belonging to different genres within the same world, so you kind of get to pick and choose which elements of the world take centre stage, while the second option probably limits the kind of world you can build, or at least expose in your stories (if you have any).

No doubt there are world "genres", ranging from those based more on science and those based on fantasy, from the serious to the humorous, from the logical to the utterly surreal, and so on and so on, but you can have different genres of story within those.

I can't claim to have read a lot of fiction, but Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels demonstrate this last point quite well. They're all set on the same world, a humorous and slightly surreal fantasy world, but you have books like Men at Arms and Feet of Clay, which border on something like a murder-mystery, against books like Hogfather which delves more heavily into the fantasy elements of the world.

I think Sal summed it up nicely above with:
Although of course, and again this might be difficult, genres are not black-and-white or objective, but only descriptive shorthand subjectively, interpretatively, applied, and there will be many stories and collections of stories that blur or cross lines.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
Egerius
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2412
Joined: 12 Sep 2013 20:29
Location: Not Rodentèrra
Contact:

Re: World genres

Post by Egerius » 21 Mar 2016 20:41

Creyeditor wrote:What about everyone being nice a bit and actually talking about world genres? Are there any? Is there a generally accepted clasification? What do you think about your own conworld? Does it fit into any category? Do you think that stories of different story genres can work in one conworld?
Well. I don't know good classification scheme for conworlds, but I might as well just describe mine.

Rodentèrra could be viewed as ‘anthropocriticism’ – the fruits/achievements of humanity in the hands of another sentient species.
Also, the nations present reflect (and follow) the development on Earth.
Rodentèrra is a non-magical, earth-like conworld set in the same universe as Earth, but 4.096 million years in the future, set in multiple eras (but, ultimately, in a ‘present day’ comparable to the early 2000s AD).
We have one species with sentience and intelligence as high as the present-day homo sapiens and three animal families that have a sentience and intelligence level comparable to the homo neanderthalensis. These three half-sentient animal families bond with the intelligent species, but have pockets of their own cultures (also, they have rights and obligations within the cultural spheres).

Also, Rodentèrra is work in progress with many empty and singularity-plagued areas.
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
Conlang embryo of TELES: Proto-Avesto-Umbric ~> Proto-Umbric
New blog: http://argentiusbonavalensis.tumblr.com

User avatar
alynnidalar
roman
roman
Posts: 1056
Joined: 17 Aug 2014 02:22
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: World genres

Post by alynnidalar » 21 Mar 2016 22:18

Creyeditor wrote:What about everyone being nice a bit and actually talking about world genres? Are there any? Is there a generally accepted clasification? What do you think about your own conworld? Does it fit into any category? Do you think that stories of different story genres can work in one conworld?
The way to think of genres, IMO, is as something to be done after the fact. Once you've created a world and written stories in it and are worrying about where your novel series should be listed on Amazon, that is the appropriate time to be concerned with what genre you're writing in.

The above is advice frequently given out on the NaNoWriMo forums, which have deluges of authors terrified they're "doing writing wrong" before they've even put a word on the page! Write your stories first, fuss about what genre they fall into later. The only reason to think about genre first is if you're explicitly writing something just to sell it quickly and easily; this is a perfectly valid way to write, I suppose, but is so different from how I do it that I don't have much advice.

And if you're not concerned about selling your writing at all, then classifying it by genre becomes even less relevant. It can be an entertaining intellectual exercise to think about genre, but don't get too wrapped up in it.

Purely as an intellectual exercise, my dalar stories/world fit pretty squarely in the urban fantasy genre, albeit with enough spy thriller elements to put them on the outlying edges of the genre. I don't know that this is a genre, per se, but a lot of urban fantasy novels that aren't paranormal romances tend to deal with discovery and exploration of new things, like how in the Dresden Files, Harry Dresden becomes increasingly more familiar with the intricacies of the fae, and in the Mercy Thompson books, Mercy learns a lot about vampires and walkers. (to pick two very simple examples) As the series go on, you discover new creatures, new factions, etc.

On the contrary, the only supernatural creatures in my dalar books are the dalar themselves, and the dalar protagonists, at least, are perfectly familiar with the dalar, their abilities, and governments. So it's kind of a different spin on the thing. Rather than discovering totally new parts of the world, it's more about exploring the implications of what the protagonists already know, and seeing what sorts of interesting situations can arise from that.

The conworld is, arguably, an AU (alternate universe) where everything is exactly the same except there's these nonhumans living secretly among us; in TVTropes terms it's a Wainscot Society with a pretty heavy Masquerade that may break in time. Things are Like Reality Unless Noted, with a heavy dose of Post-Modern Magik (by which I mean the magical "elves" carry iPhones and assault rifles, which are so much more practical than dodgy telepathy and longbows).

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3357
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: World genres

Post by elemtilas » 25 Mar 2016 04:38

alynnidalar wrote:The way to think of genres, IMO, is as something to be done after the fact. Once you've created a world and written stories in it and are worrying about where your novel series should be listed on Amazon, that is the appropriate time to be concerned with what genre you're writing in.
And those of us who don't care about where a novel ought to be listed don't even need to be concerned about the world's genre.

I guess almost by default if I wrote a novel set in The World, it would be listed under fantasy, so, whatever.
The above is advice frequently given out on the NaNoWriMo forums, which have deluges of authors terrified they're "doing writing wrong" before they've even put a word on the page!
Interesting. I see this kind of thing a lot here, too, with especially newer folks about widdling their britches for fear of doing the slightest thing wrong. [o.O]
Write your stories first, fuss about what genre they fall into later. The only reason to think about genre first is if you're explicitly writing something just to sell it quickly and easily; this is a perfectly valid way to write, I suppose, but is so different from how I do it that I don't have much advice.
I think that makes sense. If you just write for yourself and not for the publisher, you can write what you like and not worry about those kinds of issues. Though I still think it might be an interesting intellectual exercise to consider what would be basic genres of otherworlds. Are there sort of meta-themes that link different worlds into related groups? Do terms like "fantasy world" make sense at all? What are the most basic types?
And if you're not concerned about selling your writing at all, then classifying it by genre becomes even less relevant. It can be an entertaining intellectual exercise to think about genre, but don't get too wrapped up in it.
Yep.
Purely as an intellectual exercise, my dalar stories/world fit pretty squarely in the urban fantasy genre, albeit with enough spy thriller elements to put them on the outlying edges of the genre. I don't know that this is a genre, per se, but a lot of urban fantasy novels that aren't paranormal romances tend to deal with discovery and exploration of new things, like how in the Dresden Files, Harry Dresden becomes increasingly more familiar with the intricacies of the fae, and in the Mercy Thompson books, Mercy learns a lot about vampires and walkers. (to pick two very simple examples) As the series go on, you discover new creatures, new factions, etc...
I honestly don't know (and haven't put a whole lot of thought into it either) what or even if there is a single genre that would encompass The World. It's been variously described as something of a fantasy, something of an alt-history, a faerie, jazz-worlding, obscure fantasy, a complete alternate world, usw. The best I've come up with is the somewhat kitchen-sinky thaumo-techno-steam-punky-everlasting-bronze-age-religio-faerie-world. I think that's about six and a half different genres... [O.o]

Well, back to the never-ending work of editing & correcting...
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera

User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4406
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: World genres

Post by qwed117 » 26 Mar 2016 05:06

Spoiler:
Egerius wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:What about everyone being nice a bit and actually talking about world genres? Are there any? Is there a generally accepted clasification? What do you think about your own conworld? Does it fit into any category? Do you think that stories of different story genres can work in one conworld?
Well. I don't know good classification scheme for conworlds, but I might as well just describe mine.

Rodentèrra could be viewed as ‘anthropocriticism’ – the fruits/achievements of humanity in the hands of another sentient species.
Also, the nations present reflect (and follow) the development on Earth.
Rodentèrra is a non-magical, earth-like conworld set in the same universe as Earth, but 4.096 million years in the future, set in multiple eras (but, ultimately, in a ‘present day’ comparable to the early 2000s AD).
We have one species with sentience and intelligence as high as the present-day homo sapiens and three animal families that have a sentience and intelligence level comparable to the homo neanderthalensis. These three half-sentient animal families bond with the intelligent species, but have pockets of their own cultures (also, they have rights and obligations within the cultural spheres).

Also, Rodentèrra is work in progress with many empty and singularity-plagued areas.
I'll be brutally honest, my work on Teles is becoming awfully like a Maoist Utopia. Not exactly the feel I was going for. Aiga, half dissapparent is even worse, reading like an apologetic understanding of religion and culture in general. I've been acing to use that word though. I honestly should rethink the way I conworld. A more Chagenesque approach would do me well
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

User avatar
Micamo
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7186
Joined: 05 Sep 2010 18:48
Contact:

Re: World genres

Post by Micamo » 26 Mar 2016 08:42

Micamo's three cardinal rules of worldbuilding:

1. Everything's hopeless
2. Everyone's fucked
3. Some people are even more fucked than others
My pronouns are <xie> [ʒiː] / <xer> [ʒɚ]

My shitty twitter

User avatar
rajavlitra
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 67
Joined: 17 Jan 2015 03:11
Contact:

Re: World genres

Post by rajavlitra » 27 Mar 2016 17:21

Micamo wrote:Micamo's three cardinal rules of worldbuilding:

1. Everything's hopeless
2. Everyone's fucked
3. Some people are even more fucked than others
Sounds like the kind of stuff RvBOMally does.
If anyone has asked what I tend to draw on my pc, it's mountains. Fucking mountains. (dA | tumblr)

Image

User avatar
Lambuzhao
earth
earth
Posts: 7748
Joined: 13 May 2012 01:57

Re: World genres

Post by Lambuzhao » 27 Mar 2016 17:38

Micamo wrote:Micamo's three cardinal rules of worldbuilding:

1. Everything's hopeless
2. Everyone's fucked
3. Some people are even more fucked than others
[+1] [+1] & [+1] [xP] #3 reminds me of the rule from Animal Farm :

Spoiler:
Image

Post Reply