Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by bbbourq » 09 Sep 2018 18:29

This is my first post in here, but I would like to add in my own influence on my conlang/world. The "discoveries" thus far have been highly influenced by my own spirituality; specifically in the realms of Buddhism and the Law of Attraction (interestingly, I grew up as a Roman Catholic and received confirmation, then I converted to Islam much later after I met my wife in order to be allowed to marry her). Much of my conworld's religion is built on the premise that the people have a very deep-rooted connection with nature and the universal consciousness as I am very much attuned to my own seven chakras. I have yet to see if the people have an energy map as seen with the chakras, meridians, or Metatron's Cube. The religion is monotheistic, but I am unsure if the one deity truly plays a role. I am inclined to think that it might be archaic since the religion is more about being in the now, connected to all life and energy, vs a god. There is still much to learn and so far texts on the subject have been sparse.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Pabappa » 29 Sep 2018 23:05

I'd love to see details either here or elsewhere if you ever feel up to it... it sounds very interesting. When you say there's much to learn, do you mean you yourself haven't yet found answers to questions the people want to know?
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » 02 Jan 2019 07:21

elemtilas wrote:
07 Sep 2018 14:58
Probably a yard or an ell and a half taller. Nowhere near as long as the whale, though!
Oh. So hippopotamus-size, maybe?
One would think a Daine would be more concerned about the razor with a mind of its own shaving off the wrong part of his body.
[O.O]

Happily, razors is one thing Daine don't need, on account of no facial hair requiring a shave.
So Daine can't grow facial hair, not even male Daine? What about the humans (the Men of the World, as you call them)? Surely at least some of their ethnic groups grow facial hair, right?
Ewww! So the cat disintegrates into at least 257 pieces like a cartoon character?
Right. Just try and account for all the pieces you can. You just never know when the rest of the cat will materialise. Or the toast, for that matter.
The rest of the cat materializes like that? Pure dwimmery!
(BTW, Mensinghi is one monarchy, under a queen, with over fifty provinces across the ocean floor, all given autonomy in speaking their own languages. So although there's one-world government, languages and scripts differ from place to place, and there's some variation in laws.)
Interesting. Is a female monarch obligatory (like in most Daine lands), or do they also have kings from time to time?
All Mensinghi royals are descendants of Yimena Opporvosti, who lived 2,000 years ago. The succession to the crown follows a system of gynecocentric primogeniture. The oldest daughter of whoever the current monarch is, if such a daughter exists, will be first in line to become queen regnant when the current queen dies, abdicates, or is impeached. The succession then goes on to the first-in-line's children. oldest daughters get first preference, then other daughters, from second-oldest to youngest, then the monarch's sons, from oldest to youngest. After the oldest daughter's descendants are exhausted, the succession favors subsequent daughters of the monarch and each of their descendants, then the monarch's sons (each followed by his descendants from oldest to youngest). After descendants of the current monarch have been exhausted, or if the queen has no descendants, the monarch's oldest sister and her descendants stand in line, then the succession goes through subsequent sisters (each with their descendants), than to the monarch's brothers (each with his descendants), from oldest to youngest. If the queen has no living descendants nor any living siblings, nieces, nor nephews, the oldest living female cousin once removed who is a descendant of the monarch's maternal grandmother is in line. It then goes to her descendants, to subsequents female cousins once removed and their descendants, to male cousins once removed and their descendants, and then to the great-grandchildren of the monarch's maternal grandfather, paternal grandmother, and paternal grandfather.

Because the rules for succession to the crown on Mensinghi are gynecocentric, queens regnant are much more common than kings regnant. There have been a number kings regnant throughout the history of Mensinghi, however. A king whose wife is queen regnant is known as a king consort. Same-sex marriage has been practiced since before Mensinghi became a one-world monarchy, however, and often the queen will be married to another woman. The life partner of the queen is then referred to as the lesbian consort. She is accepted as a member of the royal family, even though she and the queen have no descendants (succession determined by biological parenthood rather than marriage and adoption, with no rules regarding legitimate versus illegitimate children). A man who had an out-of-wedlock child with the queen is known in LIE as a king consperm, while a woman who had an out-of-wedlock child with the king is known in LIE as a queen conove.
Is there any religious component to Mensinghian queenship or is it entirely a secular affair?
There are multiple religions on Mensinghi -- Bensuzu, Dakhiri, Matamara, etc., and Mensinghi has separation of church and state. Even though the royal family are mostly Bensuzu, there are no state religions (like Anglicanism in England and Scotland). There were Bensuzu prayers at the current queen's coronation, just as there would be Dakhiri prayers were the queen (or king) Dakhiri, but that's more like prayers at a wedding than anything that truly has the imprimatur of the state.
In Auntimoany, the choosing and installing of an emperor are fairly routine and secular affairs. Though the coronation is entirely & spectacularly religious in nature; and the emperor has certain duties and is given certain prerogatives of a spiritual nature.

Among Daine, queenship is very much a spiritual affair. Just not with the spectacle that Men seem to require!
Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » 02 Jan 2019 15:30

Khemehekis wrote:
02 Jan 2019 07:21
elemtilas wrote:
07 Sep 2018 14:58
Probably a yard or an ell and a half taller. Nowhere near as long as the whale, though!
Oh. So hippopotamus-size, maybe?
River horse? Which kind: the false river horse, or occidental hippopotamus or the true river horse, the oriental hippo? That one in the picture is the oriental variety and stands about 42 hands (14 foot) at the shoulder.
Happily, razors is one thing Daine don't need, on account of no facial hair requiring a shave.
So Daine can't grow facial hair, not even male Daine? What about the humans (the Men of the World, as you call them)? Surely at least some of their ethnic groups grow facial hair, right?
Nope. Hair on the body is a different matter, and that varies considerably by race and ethnicity, but no Daine have facial hair.

As for Men, that too varies by race and ethnicity. Of the Men most familiar in the Eastlands, the Blaqmên -- the white skinned newcomers -- and the Blaowmên -- blueblack skinned newcommers, who immigrated about 1500 years ago from the Uttermost West and the South beyond the Seas respectively, they can grow a little bit of a moustache. Really, more like two little moustaches, towards the corners of the mouth. Don't let the official portraits fool you! If you see an iconograph or a painting of a Man with long handlebar moustaches, they're fake!

Of the other race, those who immigrated about 15000 years ago, also from the Uttermost West, some of their ethnicities can (relatively quickly) grow long chin beards which they like to braid. Most just get a bit of scuzz at the end of the chin, though.
Ewww! So the cat disintegrates into at least 257 pieces like a cartoon character?
Right. Just try and account for all the pieces you can. You just never know when the rest of the cat will materialise. Or the toast, for that matter.
The rest of the cat materializes like that? Pure dwimmery!
Yep. With any luck, most of the bits will congregate in roughly one area. But it wouldn't hurt if you, you know, checked behind the sideboard or looked in grandma's Zow Dynasty flower pots. Thaumically julienned cat will start to smell...odd...after a little while.
All Mensinghi royals are descendants of Yimena Opporvosti, who lived 2,000 years ago. The succession to the crown follows a system of gynecocentric primogeniture.
A very interesting system indeed! And no wonder kings regnant are so rare!
Same-sex marriage has been practiced since before Mensinghi became a one-world monarchy, however, and often the queen will be married to another woman. The life partner of the queen is then referred to as the lesbian consort. She is accepted as a member of the royal family, even though she and the queen have no descendants (succession determined by biological parenthood rather than marriage and adoption, with no rules regarding legitimate versus illegitimate children). A man who had an out-of-wedlock child with the queen is known in LIE as a king consperm, while a woman who had an out-of-wedlock child with the king is known in LIE as a queen conove.
Would such a queen regnant either marry (also) a man or at least mate with one in order to bear a proper heir? Or is the tradition simply to pass on to the next heir in line?

Daine have neither concept in their cultures (either same sex unions as modern western Earth humans understand them nor inheritance by simple fact of descent nor inherited regnal authority).

While it's obvious that a Mensighni queen is "born to the queenship", the same can be said of a Daine queen. The difference is, at the time, no one knows it, and least of all the queen herself. She'll have to grow and mature into the position before it's revealed to her. A new queen is chosen by the Council -- the wise elders of the land -- and sometimes with the advice of the previous queen. At the appropriate time, she'll be called and anointed and that's pretty much it.
Is there any religious component to Mensinghian queenship or is it entirely a secular affair?
There are multiple religions on Mensinghi -- Bensuzu, Dakhiri, Matamara, etc., and Mensinghi has separation of church and state. Even though the royal family are mostly Bensuzu, there are no state religions (like Anglicanism in England and Scotland). There were Bensuzu prayers at the current queen's coronation, just as there would be Dakhiri prayers were the queen (or king) Dakhiri, but that's more like prayers at a wedding than anything that truly has the imprimatur of the state.
Curious. While Daine don't practice "religion" in a way that Men would understand it, the very idea that the spiritual and the secular should be so unnaturally separated is to them quite the odd notion!

Men, though typically less wise than Daine, would recoil at the notion, wondering how such a government can even function without both realms in balance! Without the Commission of Heaven, at the very least, government will soon fall to wreck and ruin. Without a duly consecrated Ruler, the Commission can not be secured.
In Auntimoany, the choosing and installing of an emperor are fairly routine and secular affairs. Though the coronation is entirely & spectacularly religious in nature; and the emperor has certain duties and is given certain prerogatives of a spiritual nature.

Thanks for sharing!
And then there's the current Empress. She quite sweetly wrested power and authority from her husband via gentle coup. Thus far, the Commission seems to be resting secure in her hands, so for the time being all is well!
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » 05 Jan 2019 06:28

elemtilas wrote:
02 Jan 2019 15:30
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Jan 2019 07:21
elemtilas wrote:
07 Sep 2018 14:58
Probably a yard or an ell and a half taller. Nowhere near as long as the whale, though!
Oh. So hippopotamus-size, maybe?
River horse? Which kind: the false river horse, or occidental hippopotamus or the true river horse, the oriental hippo? That one in the picture is the oriental variety and stands about 42 hands (14 foot) at the shoulder.
Goodness, you have two horses-of-the-river? Might they correspond to the regular hippo (Hippopotamus amphibius) and the pygmy hippo on our planet?
Nope. Hair on the body is a different matter, and that varies considerably by race and ethnicity, but no Daine have facial hair.

As for Men, that too varies by race and ethnicity. Of the Men most familiar in the Eastlands, the Blaqmên -- the white skinned newcomers -- and the Blaowmên -- blueblack skinned newcommers, who immigrated about 1500 years ago from the Uttermost West and the South beyond the Seas respectively, they can grow a little bit of a moustache. Really, more like two little moustaches, towards the corners of the mouth. Don't let the official portraits fool you! If you see an iconograph or a painting of a Man with long handlebar moustaches, they're fake!

Of the other race, those who immigrated about 15000 years ago, also from the Uttermost West, some of their ethnicities can (relatively quickly) grow long chin beards which they like to braid. Most just get a bit of scuzz at the end of the chin, though.
Cool. Do they have Semitic-type people like me, with lots of facial hair on the guys?
Yep. With any luck, most of the bits will congregate in roughly one area. But it wouldn't hurt if you, you know, checked behind the sideboard or looked in grandma's Zow Dynasty flower pots. Thaumically julienned cat will start to smell...odd...after a little while.
I'm glad I'm anosmic.
All Mensinghi royals are descendants of Yimena Opporvosti, who lived 2,000 years ago. The succession to the crown follows a system of gynecocentric primogeniture.
A very interesting system indeed! And no wonder kings regnant are so rare!
Glad you think so. And they should be about as common as queens regnant in the United Kingdom.
Same-sex marriage has been practiced since before Mensinghi became a one-world monarchy, however, and often the queen will be married to another woman. The life partner of the queen is then referred to as the lesbian consort. She is accepted as a member of the royal family, even though she and the queen have no descendants (succession determined by biological parenthood rather than marriage and adoption, with no rules regarding legitimate versus illegitimate children). A man who had an out-of-wedlock child with the queen is known in LIE as a king consperm, while a woman who had an out-of-wedlock child with the king is known in LIE as a queen conove.
Would such a queen regnant either marry (also) a man or at least mate with one in order to bear a proper heir? Or is the tradition simply to pass on to the next heir in line?
If a queen were bisexual, she might, but when Mensinghi has had truly lesbian queens, said queens have just turned to the daughters, then the sons of their sisters, then the daughters, then the sons of their brothers, etc.
Daine have neither concept in their cultures (either same sex unions as modern western Earth humans understand them nor inheritance by simple fact of descent nor inherited regnal authority).
I know the Daine don't have homosexuality and bisexuality, but . . . there's no primogeniture, either androcentric or gynecocentric? No willing things to the next-of-kin?
While it's obvious that a Mensighni queen is "born to the queenship", the same can be said of a Daine queen. The difference is, at the time, no one knows it, and least of all the queen herself. She'll have to grow and mature into the position before it's revealed to her. A new queen is chosen by the Council -- the wise elders of the land -- and sometimes with the advice of the previous queen. At the appropriate time, she'll be called and anointed and that's pretty much it.
[O.O] I just had my mind blown.

Several years ago when we were discussing voting on another forum, someone mentioned a science fiction novel in which a society had a computer that determined the most statistically average person in the world at any given time, and that one person was called upon to do their voting. Only one voter in the whole society! Daine queenship reminds me of that.
Curious. While Daine don't practice "religion" in a way that Men would understand it, the very idea that the spiritual and the secular should be so unnaturally separated is to them quite the odd notion!

Men, though typically less wise than Daine, would recoil at the notion, wondering how such a government can even function without both realms in balance! Without the Commission of Heaven, at the very least, government will soon fall to wreck and ruin. Without a duly consecrated Ruler, the Commission can not be secured.
Yeah, but in the World, people (as in sapients -- humans, Daine, Hotai, etc.) know that Heaven and God exist.

In the Lehola Galaxy, on the other hand, people still haven't figured out for sure the truth about God (or gods) and the afterlife. Although the iteli attests to a conscious force that designs the universe, God has still not revealed Himself or Herself. There are planets where people want to establishment a lehocracy -- a step beyond theocracy where God Himself is supreme ruler -- and they're still waiting.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » 05 Jan 2019 09:24

Khemehekis wrote:
05 Jan 2019 06:28
Spoiler:
elemtilas wrote:
02 Jan 2019 15:30
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Jan 2019 07:21
elemtilas wrote:
07 Sep 2018 14:58
Probably a yard or an ell and a half taller. Nowhere near as long as the whale, though!
Oh. So hippopotamus-size, maybe?
River horse? Which kind: the false river horse, or occidental hippopotamus or the true river horse, the oriental hippo? That one in the picture is the oriental variety and stands about 42 hands (14 foot) at the shoulder.
Goodness, you have two horses-of-the-river? Might they correspond to the regular hippo (Hippopotamus amphibius) and the pygmy hippo on our planet?
I think the varieties of occidental river horse answer fairly closely to an Earth hippopotamus. I've not travelled far in the West, but I believe they have several varieties there, including some small ones.

In the East, the river horse is more or less as depicted: a rather tall sivatherium-like beast. Totally unrelated to the hippopotamus proper. You generally find them down south, in Syan-Syan. You do get a nice view, riding one of them!
Nope. Hair on the body is a different matter, and that varies considerably by race and ethnicity, but no Daine have facial hair.

As for Men, that too varies by race and ethnicity. Of the Men most familiar in the Eastlands, the Blaqmên -- the white skinned newcomers -- and the Blaowmên -- blueblack skinned newcommers, who immigrated about 1500 years ago from the Uttermost West and the South beyond the Seas respectively, they can grow a little bit of a moustache. Really, more like two little moustaches, towards the corners of the mouth. Don't let the official portraits fool you! If you see an iconograph or a painting of a Man with long handlebar moustaches, they're fake!

Of the other race, those who immigrated about 15000 years ago, also from the Uttermost West, some of their ethnicities can (relatively quickly) grow long chin beards which they like to braid. Most just get a bit of scuzz at the end of the chin, though.
Cool. Do they have Semitic-type people like me, with lots of facial hair on the guys?[/quote]

In the East, no. I've not come across any. It is possible that down in Ehrran (in the Farther West) or across the (newish) Straits of Zion in Phazzanea or Afareia there are Men such as yourself. After the Flood and the destruction of Punt, the Shams people mostly migrated south, into what was until recently the Levant, and down into what is still Saba, Miserea and across the sea into what is now Prester Yohan's realm, the Empire of the Axiomatics.

Others --- Jews in particular --- after the sack of Jerusalem moved eastwards and mingled with the Hellades. All along the Highway of Silk are strung, pearl like, numerous Judeo-Buddho-Indo-Helladian kingdoms. (!) There are, of course, Jews as far east as Auntimoany, but I don't think there's much Semitic about them. I'd say about 80% of the Auntimoanian Jews are Blaqmen: strapping big Aryan fellows! The remaining 20% are Blaowmen: the blue-black folk.
Yep. With any luck, most of the bits will congregate in roughly one area. But it wouldn't hurt if you, you know, checked behind the sideboard or looked in grandma's Zow Dynasty flower pots. Thaumically julienned cat will start to smell...odd...after a little while.
I'm glad I'm anosmic.
You too? Spiff! I can whiff a little, but it would have to be really strong for me to notice.
Spoiler:
All Mensinghi royals are descendants of Yimena Opporvosti, who lived 2,000 years ago. The succession to the crown follows a system of gynecocentric primogeniture.
A very interesting system indeed! And no wonder kings regnant are so rare!
Glad you think so. And they should be about as common as queens regnant in the United Kingdom.
That's about what I was thinking.

Question: (leastways according to The Crown), it was said to the young Elizabeth that England did great things during the reigns of their Queens (and I think history bears that out). Is there a similar notion among the Mensinghi and their Kings?
Spoiler:
Same-sex marriage has been practiced since before Mensinghi became a one-world monarchy, however, and often the queen will be married to another woman. The life partner of the queen is then referred to as the lesbian consort. She is accepted as a member of the royal family, even though she and the queen have no descendants (succession determined by biological parenthood rather than marriage and adoption, with no rules regarding legitimate versus illegitimate children). A man who had an out-of-wedlock child with the queen is known in LIE as a king consperm, while a woman who had an out-of-wedlock child with the king is known in LIE as a queen conove.
Would such a queen regnant either marry (also) a man or at least mate with one in order to bear a proper heir? Or is the tradition simply to pass on to the next heir in line?
If a queen were bisexual, she might, but when Mensinghi has had truly lesbian queens, said queens have just turned to the daughters, then the sons of their sisters, then the daughters, then the sons of their brothers, etc.
Makes sense.
Daine have neither concept in their cultures (either same sex unions as modern western Earth humans understand them nor inheritance by simple fact of descent nor inherited regnal authority).
I know the Daine don't have homosexuality and bisexuality, but . . . there's no primogeniture, either androcentric or gynecocentric? No willing things to the next-of-kin?
Actually, no. Usual practice is to give things to people you love while you're alive. Whatever is left when you die generally ends up in the queenhold's mathom house. If someone has need of something that was yours, it'll be given them.

It's interesting, for all the cultural and communal wealth of even the smallest queenholds, individual Daine really don't own a lot of individual property. Most of what they make is made for and on behalf of the community.
While it's obvious that a Mensighni queen is "born to the queenship", the same can be said of a Daine queen. The difference is, at the time, no one knows it, and least of all the queen herself. She'll have to grow and mature into the position before it's revealed to her. A new queen is chosen by the Council -- the wise elders of the land -- and sometimes with the advice of the previous queen. At the appropriate time, she'll be called and anointed and that's pretty much it.
[O.O] I just had my mind blown.

Several years ago when we were discussing voting on another forum, someone mentioned a science fiction novel in which a society had a computer that determined the most statistically average person in the world at any given time, and that one person was called upon to do their voting. Only one voter in the whole society! Daine queenship reminds me of that.
Interesting system, that! Daine aren't very good at "high level democracy". I think they're not individualistic enough for that.
Curious. While Daine don't practice "religion" in a way that Men would understand it, the very idea that the spiritual and the secular should be so unnaturally separated is to them quite the odd notion!

Men, though typically less wise than Daine, would recoil at the notion, wondering how such a government can even function without both realms in balance! Without the Commission of Heaven, at the very least, government will soon fall to wreck and ruin. Without a duly consecrated Ruler, the Commission can not be secured.
Yeah, but in the World, people (as in sapients -- humans, Daine, Hotai, etc.) know that Heaven and God exist.
Well, yes.

There is that! (Though Orcs (Hotai included) are a little unsure whó that actually is.) But even so, that existence is not really obvious to everyone. Orcs, being natural contrarians, deny the whole shebang. Men --- Men are short-sighted! --- God revealed himself to them only a couple lifetimes of Daine ago, and they've pretty much forgotten already. Daine never had a direct experience of God, but they learned from the Teyor who in turn learned from the mighty Powers who, during their youth, were still actively working in Yeola. All the great ones have now retreated so that history can unfold.

And, boy are they going to get a surprise at the End!

So, yes, there is cognitive knowledge (such as Men have) and experiential knowledge (such as Teyor have) and intuitive knowledge (such as Daine have) of God, but it's not like the Almighty comes down to Auntimoany to harangue Parliament from time to time!
In the Lehola Galaxy, on the other hand, people still haven't figured out for sure the truth about God (or gods) and the afterlife. Although the iteli attests to a conscious force that designs the universe, God has still not revealed Himself or Herself. There are planets where people want to establishment a lehocracy -- a step beyond theocracy where God Himself is supreme ruler -- and they're still waiting.
I see!

Interstinger and interestinger!

I guess the lehocrats might have to wait a while...

Even in the World, they'll have to wait a bit for that!
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » 07 Jan 2019 10:53

elemtilas wrote:
05 Jan 2019 09:24
I think the varieties of occidental river horse answer fairly closely to an Earth hippopotamus. I've not travelled far in the West, but I believe they have several varieties there, including some small ones.

In the East, the river horse is more or less as depicted: a rather tall sivatherium-like beast. Totally unrelated to the hippopotamus proper. You generally find them down south, in Syan-Syan. You do get a nice view, riding one of them!
Syan-Syan sounds like an Asian name.

Do you know how many species of river horse they have on Gea?
Cool. Do they have Semitic-type people like me, with lots of facial hair on the guys?
In the East, no. I've not come across any. It is possible that down in Ehrran (in the Farther West) or across the (newish) Straits of Zion in Phazzanea or Afareia there are Men such as yourself. After the Flood and the destruction of Punt, the Shams people mostly migrated south, into what was until recently the Levant, and down into what is still Saba, Miserea and across the sea into what is now Prester Yohan's realm, the Empire of the Axiomatics.

Others --- Jews in particular --- after the sack of Jerusalem moved eastwards and mingled with the Hellades. All along the Highway of Silk are strung, pearl like, numerous Judeo-Buddho-Indo-Helladian kingdoms. (!) There are, of course, Jews as far east as Auntimoany, but I don't think there's much Semitic about them. I'd say about 80% of the Auntimoanian Jews are Blaqmen: strapping big Aryan fellows! The remaining 20% are Blaowmen: the blue-black folk.
Oh, cool, so they call it the Levant -- just like on Earth! And there are Jews. Is Jewish only a religion in the World, or do Jews share common genes as we do on Earth?
I'm glad I'm anosmic.
You too? Spiff! I can whiff a little, but it would have to be really strong for me to notice.
So you're not completely anosmic the way I am?

I've met at least two another anosmic people: Maria Marquez and my friend Fred Calipini. Fred is currently in the hospital with pneumonia. I pray for my friend to recover; I'm sure he's praying too, as he loves to say the Pater Noster.
Question: (leastways according to The Crown), it was said to the young Elizabeth that England did great things during the reigns of their Queens (and I think history bears that out). Is there a similar notion among the Mensinghi and their Kings?
I've never thought about that. I wasn't even aware of this story regarding Queen Elizabeth II!
I know the Daine don't have homosexuality and bisexuality, but . . . there's no primogeniture, either androcentric or gynecocentric? No willing things to the next-of-kin?
Actually, no. Usual practice is to give things to people you love while you're alive. Whatever is left when you die generally ends up in the queenhold's mathom house. If someone has need of something that was yours, it'll be given them.

It's interesting, for all the cultural and communal wealth of even the smallest queenholds, individual Daine really don't own a lot of individual property. Most of what they make is made for and on behalf of the community.
Oh, good. What's a mathom house?
Interesting system, that! Daine aren't very good at "high level democracy". I think they're not individualistic enough for that.
I've become more and more cynical about democracy over the years. What this nation needs is a good Inner-Bruise-style coup of the Trump administration!
Yeah, but in the World, people (as in sapients -- humans, Daine, Hotai, etc.) know that Heaven and God exist.
Well, yes.

There is that! (Though Orcs (Hotai included) are a little unsure whó that actually is.) But even so, that existence is not really obvious to everyone. Orcs, being natural contrarians, deny the whole shebang. Men --- Men are short-sighted! --- God revealed himself to them only a couple lifetimes of Daine ago, and they've pretty much forgotten already. Daine never had a direct experience of God, but they learned from the Teyor who in turn learned from the mighty Powers who, during their youth, were still actively working in Yeola. All the great ones have now retreated so that history can unfold.

And, boy are they going to get a surprise at the End!

So, yes, there is cognitive knowledge (such as Men have) and experiential knowledge (such as Teyor have) and intuitive knowledge (such as Daine have) of God, but it's not like the Almighty comes down to Auntimoany to harangue Parliament from time to time!
A surprise at the end? As in, Gean eschatology?

Hotai/goblins are a subset of Orcs in the World? And they're all atheists?
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » 09 Jan 2019 17:03

Khemehekis wrote:
07 Jan 2019 10:53
elemtilas wrote:
05 Jan 2019 09:24
I think the varieties of occidental river horse answer fairly closely to an Earth hippopotamus. I've not travelled far in the West, but I believe they have several varieties there, including some small ones.

In the East, the river horse is more or less as depicted: a rather tall sivatherium-like beast. Totally unrelated to the hippopotamus proper. You generally find them down south, in Syan-Syan. You do get a nice view, riding one of them!
Syan-Syan sounds like an Asian name.

Do you know how many species of river horse they have on Gea?
Sorry, I don't know that! Yeola / Gea is a pretty big, largely unexplored place, after all!
Spoiler:
Cool. Do they have Semitic-type people like me, with lots of facial hair on the guys?
In the East, no. I've not come across any. It is possible that down in Ehrran (in the Farther West) or across the (newish) Straits of Zion in Phazzanea or Afareia there are Men such as yourself. After the Flood and the destruction of Punt, the Shams people mostly migrated south, into what was until recently the Levant, and down into what is still Saba, Miserea and across the sea into what is now Prester Yohan's realm, the Empire of the Axiomatics.

Others --- Jews in particular --- after the sack of Jerusalem moved eastwards and mingled with the Hellades. All along the Highway of Silk are strung, pearl like, numerous Judeo-Buddho-Indo-Helladian kingdoms. (!) There are, of course, Jews as far east as Auntimoany, but I don't think there's much Semitic about them. I'd say about 80% of the Auntimoanian Jews are Blaqmen: strapping big Aryan fellows! The remaining 20% are Blaowmen: the blue-black folk.
Oh, cool, so they call it the Levant -- just like on Earth! And there are Jews. Is Jewish only a religion in the World, or do Jews share common genes as we do on Earth?
Depends on one's perspective, of course. In the Eastlands, they call that region the Uttermost West, a kind of catch-all term for all the regions of the West: Wespera, Heropea, Atelante, Phazzanea, Vanda and Afareia. The Levant is located in Demeteia.

In the Westlands, they call it Levant because of obvious reasons: er rêyes dorire en al lifantom na, the Sun rises in the east.
I'm glad I'm anosmic.
You too? Spiff! I can whiff a little, but it would have to be really strong for me to notice.
So you're not completely anosmic the way I am?

I've met at least two another anosmic people: Maria Marquez and my friend Fred Calipini. Fred is currently in the hospital with pneumonia. I pray for my friend to recover; I'm sure he's praying too, as he loves to say the Pater Noster.
Not complete, no. Just weakened. Hope the pneumonia clears away soon!
Usual practice is to give things to people you love while you're alive. Whatever is left when you die generally ends up in the queenhold's mathom house. If someone has need of something that was yours, it'll be given them.

It's interesting, for all the cultural and communal wealth of even the smallest queenholds, individual Daine really don't own a lot of individual property. Most of what they make is made for and on behalf of the community.
Oh, good. What's a mathom house?
Oo, the mathom house! It's a pickers' paradise! Think museum plus storehouse plus antique shop plus recycling facility and you'll get an idea:

Image
Image

It's the place where useful things that are no longer needed at the moment go to rest up for a while until needed again. So, it's part utilitarian storage & workshop, where tools and parts are kept; but also storage for things people have made that are destined for trade; and also a place where people can put things (an extra bed box, surplus bottles & boxes, and household ephemera) they don't need but are still serviceable and other people can get them and use them.

It's also the place where broken things go to be recycled. Really anywhere in Yeola, but especially among the Daine, there is simply no such thing as a throw-away or disposable economy. If you own a racca, you wear it until it develops holes. Then you patch the holes. And you keep wearing it until you patch the patches. Eventually you'll have a whole garment! But you don't throw it away and obtain an entirely new one. A wooden cooking spoon is used until the spoon part is literally worn down to a nub. But even then, it may not be thrown away. Just leave it with the mathom boys. They'll turn the ancient handle into something else.
Daine aren't very good at "high level democracy". I think they're not individualistic enough for that.
I've become more and more cynical about democracy over the years. What this nation needs is a good Inner-Bruise-style coup of the Trump administration!
I'll leave the present to history. As for democracy, I am nowhere close to cynical about it, but I have little hope that people will do what it takes to make it work properly. There are too many (Americans) who feel entitled but don't wish to contribute; too many want to be entertained but don't want to be educated; etc. Democracy isn't for these people. But enough of that! That's too depressing!

What we need a good, strong, wise Daine queen!

:mrgreen:
Yeah, but in the World, people (as in sapients -- humans, Daine, Hotai, etc.) know that Heaven and God exist.
Well, yes.

There is that! (Though Orcs (Hotai included) are a little unsure whó that actually is.) But even so, that existence is not really obvious to everyone. Orcs, being natural contrarians, deny the whole shebang. Men --- Men are short-sighted! --- God revealed himself to them only a couple lifetimes of Daine ago, and they've pretty much forgotten already. Daine never had a direct experience of God, but they learned from the Teyor who in turn learned from the mighty Powers who, during their youth, were still actively working in Yeola. All the great ones have now retreated so that history can unfold.

And, boy are they going to get a surprise at the End!

So, yes, there is cognitive knowledge (such as Men have) and experiential knowledge (such as Teyor have) and intuitive knowledge (such as Daine have) of God, but it's not like the Almighty comes down to Auntimoany to harangue Parliament from time to time!
A surprise at the end? As in, Gean eschatology?
No, actually a bit before that. The last moans of Yeola. Long after the Orcs have taken over and ruined everything fair and lovely, the Powers will come into The World again to set things right (which may, to some extent, be echoed in the Protestant/Revolutionary doctrines of tribulation & rapture --- that kind of thing, if not that thing exactly!). They will set foot on the last remaining unsullied land, and finding there the remaining Teyor, including The Eldest (the oldest living person in the world), they will take them out of Yeola before scouring the place entirely clean of befoulment.

But there's a hitch: the Powers have been unaware of the Younger Children. At this point, Men and Dwarrows and Fairies and Elves will be long extinct. Remaining will be the distant descendants of the Daine, a kind of mixed and homogenised people; but a people whose physical fate is bound to Yeola. They can not follow the Teyor, even though they greatly wish to. It then falls to the Powers to sort out how to destroy and rebuilt a whole planet while preserving these last good people.

The Eschaton itself will happen rather later, and involves the Seven Squirrels and the World Tree.

But even the Eschaton isn't the End of All That Is. Thát will involve the Final Music and the dissolution of all matter and energy and the moment when Death herself finds she has become redundant and the Eye of God is at last withdrawn from an utterly dead, utterly cold, utterly unreviveable cosmos.
Hotai/goblins are a subset of Orcs in the World? And they're all atheists?
Yes. There are various sorts of Orcs. They are Atheists in that that they very strongly believe in the nonexistence of God. They have in their racial memory knowledge of another god -- one who is now distant, slumbering, but who will come again and drive the Orcs forth from the deep places and ravage the world. That will be the Age of the Orc, and they will become the masters of Yeola before they make it quite uninhabitable for any decent folk.

Good folk call them evil, and it is true that they love to hunt and kill, to enslave and make war on Daine and Man and Fairy alike (though they are constitutionally terrified of Elves, and with good reason). And it's true that good folk more than happily hunt down and slay Orcs in their turn. Because They are evil and We are good.

But the truth is a little different. Orcs aren't really "evil" so much as "orthogonal". They are clever and brave after a fashion; their girls are smart and learned in the way of their kind and love nothing more than tending hearth and home and family; their boys are not so smart, but take direction well and are strong and good builders and tinkers. But above all, Orcs are chaotic. When they get it in their heads that some neighbouring faction is out to get them, their fundamental paranoia is released and they go all berserk, fighting everyone that gets in their way until there is either no one left to fight or they lie dead; they destroy everything in their path with wanton abandon; they rape and pillage and kill and will go miles out of their way to satisfy the bloodlust that can not be assuaged.

Imagine what they were once like when their god filled their heads with visions of enemies!

Imagine what they will be like once again, when their god awakens and returns...
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Firebird766 » 12 Jan 2019 20:59

I am not religious, but I am American and a lot of American culture comes from a historically Puritan background. I have to keep checking myself to stop molding my concultures similarly.

I also keep finding myself accidentally molding my current conreligion to be vaguely similar to the Abrahamic ones. Which I then need to correct because I don’t want to make Yet Another Christianity Clone. It’s a pain and I wish I didn’t have these influences injecting themselves into my work.

Luckily, I have a friend who is pretty good at calling me out when I accidentally do this.

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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » 14 Jan 2019 01:53

elemtilas wrote:
09 Jan 2019 17:03
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Jan 2019 10:53
Do you know how many species of river horse they have on Gea?
Sorry, I don't know that! Yeola / Gea is a pretty big, largely unexplored place, after all!
I see. Mark Rosenfelder has said he still has yet to name all the cannibal tribes in that jungle on Almea.
Depends on one's perspective, of course. In the Eastlands, they call that region the Uttermost West, a kind of catch-all term for all the regions of the West: Wespera, Heropea, Atelante, Phazzanea, Vanda and Afareia. The Levant is located in Demeteia.

In the Westlands, they call it Levant because of obvious reasons: er rêyes dorire en al lifantom na, the Sun rises in the east.
"Atelante" sounds a lot like "Atlantis". I think "Phazzanea" is a pretty cool name. "Afareia" sounds like Homo afer.
Hope the pneumonia clears away soon!
Well, someone said he saw Fred riding the bus with him, so evidently he's out of the hospital now!

Hurray!
Oh, good. What's a mathom house?
Oo, the mathom house! It's a pickers' paradise! Think museum plus storehouse plus antique shop plus recycling facility and you'll get an idea:

[Images]
Those pictures remind me of Urban Ore Eco Park in Berkeley. I've been to Urban Ore many times. It has influenced my art; in The Bittersweet Generation, the character Bryce Schlitter gets a job at a place called High Diamonds Eco Park.
If you own a racca, you wear it until it develops holes. Then you patch the holes. And you keep wearing it until you patch the patches. Eventually you'll have a whole garment!
Is a racca like a rocha top?
What we need a good, strong, wise Daine queen!
Ah. There goes Elemtilas. You said earlier that you didn't like either Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein -- give me Daine monarchy any day of the week!
But there's a hitch: the Powers have been unaware of the Younger Children. At this point, Men and Dwarrows and Fairies and Elves will be long extinct.
Sounds like a dark conworld if many of its sapients (even humans) die out in the future -- and the future is already planned out by the conworld's creator.
Remaining will be the distant descendants of the Daine, a kind of mixed and homogenised people; but a people whose physical fate is bound to Yeola. They can not follow the Teyor, even though they greatly wish to. It then falls to the Powers to sort out how to destroy and rebuilt a whole planet while preserving these last good people.
Sounds like a classic fantasy dilemma. If I were creating the Word, I myself don't know how I would solve that one.
The Eschaton itself will happen rather later, and involves the Seven Squirrels and the World Tree.
I'll have to google "Seven Squirrels". I'm guessing there's something in "Some Snippets from the World" or FrathWiki on it?
But even the Eschaton isn't the End of All That Is. Thát will involve the Final Music and the dissolution of all matter and energy and the moment when Death herself finds she has become redundant and the Eye of God is at last withdrawn from an utterly dead, utterly cold, utterly unreviveable cosmos.
Do the spirits that have been saved in the afterlife -- the humans who were saved by Jesus coming to the World, etc. -- cease to exist too, or is it just physical matter?
Hotai/goblins are a subset of Orcs in the World? And they're all atheists?
But the truth is a little different. Orcs aren't really "evil" so much as "orthogonal". They are clever and brave after a fashion; their girls are smart and learned in the way of their kind and love nothing more than tending hearth and home and family; their boys are not so smart, but take direction well and are strong and good builders and tinkers. But above all, Orcs are chaotic. When they get it in their heads that some neighbouring faction is out to get them, their fundamental paranoia is released and they go all berserk, fighting everyone that gets in their way until there is either no one left to fight or they lie dead; they destroy everything in their path with wanton abandon; they rape and pillage and kill and will go miles out of their way to satisfy the bloodlust that can not be assuaged.
What do you mean by "orthogonal"? As I understand it, the word "orthogonal" means that some X's can be A, and some X's can be B, and some Y's can be A, and some Y's can be B.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » 14 Jan 2019 03:37

Khemehekis wrote:
14 Jan 2019 01:53
elemtilas wrote:
09 Jan 2019 17:03
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Jan 2019 10:53
Do you know how many species of river horse they have on Gea?
Sorry, I don't know that! Yeola / Gea is a pretty big, largely unexplored place, after all!
I see. Mark Rosenfelder has said he still has yet to name all the cannibal tribes in that jungle on Almea.
):

Sorry! Maybe eventually?
Depends on one's perspective, of course. In the Eastlands, they call that region the Uttermost West, a kind of catch-all term for all the regions of the West: Wespera, Heropea, Atelante, Phazzanea, Vanda and Afareia. The Levant is located in Demeteia.

In the Westlands, they call it Levant because of obvious reasons: er rêyes dorire en al lifantom na, the Sun rises in the east.
"Atelante" sounds a lot like "Atlantis". I think "Phazzanea" is a pretty cool name. "Afareia" sounds like Homo afer.
Indeed. Plato, as is well known, got his lore from Solon who had learned from Qimetian priests. Qimet was, long long ago, an Atelantean colony and they kept many imperfect memories of those ancient days. Afareia probably derives from the Puniqian word for land.
Hurray!
:mrgreen:
Those pictures remind me of Urban Ore Eco Park in Berkeley. I've been to Urban Ore many times. It has influenced my art; in The Bittersweet Generation, the character Bryce Schlitter gets a job at a place called High Diamonds Eco Park.
Cool!

Ya, Ecopark. That's a mathom house!
If you own a racca, you wear it until it develops holes. Then you patch the holes. And you keep wearing it until you patch the patches. Eventually you'll have a whole garment!
Is a racca like a rocha top?
Not sure what a rocha top is.

A racca is what a Daine wears, when they wear clothing. A kind of simple wrap around the waist:
Image
What we need a good, strong, wise Daine queen!
Ah. There goes Elemtilas. You said earlier that you didn't like either Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein -- give me Daine monarchy any day of the week!
And I stand by that assessment! A Daine queen is the best solution to every political problem plaguing Man.
But there's a hitch: the Powers have been unaware of the Younger Children. At this point, Men and Dwarrows and Fairies and Elves will be long extinct.
Sounds like a dark conworld if many of its sapients (even humans) die out in the future -- and the future is already planned out by the conworld's creator.
Dark? Yeah. It is a dying world. Torn between its fallen and unfallen natures. Bound eventually to come to an end. And likely a rather messy one at that. But what world is not dying?

Hm. Definitely a Theme, that, in my works. Joie de vivre; joie de mourir. The sorrow amid great joy.

I wouldn't say it's "planned out", though, and least of all by me! While I have insight, it largely remains up to those living on the inside how things will actually turn out!

The dying out thing: you can thank Men for that! Self-fulfilling philosophy, is what that is. They also introduced the concept of the race war, so they've got that going for them, too.
Remaining will be the distant descendants of the Daine, a kind of mixed and homogenised people; but a people whose physical fate is bound to Yeola. They can not follow the Teyor, even though they greatly wish to. It then falls to the Powers to sort out how to destroy and rebuilt a whole planet while preserving these last good people.
Sounds like a classic fantasy dilemma. If I were creating the World, I myself don't know how I would solve that one.
Me too. I'm just glad I don't have to make those kinds of decisions!
The Eschaton itself will happen rather later, and involves the Seven Squirrels and the World Tree.
I'll have to google "Seven Squirrels". I'm guessing there's something in "Some Snippets from the World" or FrathWiki on it?
"Seven Squirrels of Regenreck" might turn something up. I thought I had put the story somewhere, but even I couldn't google it up, so maybe I didn't!
But even the Eschaton isn't the End of All That Is. Thát will involve the Final Music and the dissolution of all matter and energy and the moment when Death herself finds she has become redundant and the Eye of God is at last withdrawn from an utterly dead, utterly cold, utterly unreviveable cosmos.
Do the spirits that have been saved in the afterlife -- the humans who were saved by Jesus coming to the World, etc. -- cease to exist too, or is it just physical matter?
Hm. Those things, the fates of souls and the life after death from the physical existence, those things are outside The World. I have no direct knowledge of that, but can only speculate.

I would say that all manifestations of physical beings (their living bodies, the bodies of the animated dead, phenonenal residua, ghosts, mythic abstractions, terrestrial deities) and all physical records of their thoughts and hopes and dreams (and such devices and places do exist in Yeola) shall by that far distant future long have been incinerated by the bloating deaths of the stars. Astrologers don't know this, but the stars will eventually and catastrophically expand and explode as their inhabitants themselves die. Any planet unlucky enough to be in close orbit will be baked, boiled, fried and fricasseed. But the end of all things is after the Heat Death. By that time, the Last Star in the entire universe shall have wunk out of existence and all matter shall assume room temperature and all energy shall dissipate. Eventually, the stringy bits will all unravel and their components will crumble.

Of course, nothing living will exist anywhere in the universe at that time. I would presume (and hope) that the souls of all the living spirit beings shall have long been removed from the confines of All That Is. Disatomised chaos-dust suspended in a million degree below absolute zero space is no place for anything alive! Even the menacing Things from the outer Voids would find nothing to feast on here. No reality left. Just the dust bones of a dead carcase.

I would further presume that, as God exists outside of Time and Place, i.e., outside of the confines of All That Is, that there will indeed be those Men and Daine and Teyor (and perhaps even Orcs) whose abode is with God. What they might remember of the World Before? I couldn't say. It being a place of sorrow, they may have no memories of it, or perhaps no longer feel the sorrow of it.
Hotai/goblins are a subset of Orcs in the World? And they're all atheists?
But the truth is a little different. Orcs aren't really "evil" so much as "orthogonal". They are clever and brave after a fashion; their girls are smart and learned in the way of their kind and love nothing more than tending hearth and home and family; their boys are not so smart, but take direction well and are strong and good builders and tinkers. But above all, Orcs are chaotic. When they get it in their heads that some neighbouring faction is out to get them, their fundamental paranoia is released and they go all berserk, fighting everyone that gets in their way until there is either no one left to fight or they lie dead; they destroy everything in their path with wanton abandon; they rape and pillage and kill and will go miles out of their way to satisfy the bloodlust that can not be assuaged.
What do you mean by "orthogonal"? As I understand it, the word "orthogonal" means that some X's can be A, and some X's can be B, and some Y's can be A, and some Y's can be B.
Orthogonal is like 90deg. So, their entire world view, sense of propriety, morality, etc. has been turned to the side. So, most peoples of Yeola can at least agree on basics --- even something basic like the wrongth of stealing or murdering --- Orcs just don't see things that way.

You had asked about facial hair and so forth in the different ethnicities of Men in the East, so I made some pictures to show what I mean:

viewtopic.php?p=287410#p287410
[url]viewtopic.php?p=287539#p287539[]/url]
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Pabappa » 14 Jan 2019 21:05

Firebird766 wrote:
12 Jan 2019 20:59


I also keep finding myself accidentally molding my current conreligion to be vaguely similar to the Abrahamic ones. Which I then need to correct because I don’t want to make Yet Another Christianity Clone.
Im curious what you mean, if youre willing to share. I think its impossible to be truly original when creating a religion because all of the big questions you can think of have been asked and answered. And just within Christianity one can find a wide variety of beliefs. For example, two different translations of a certain verse in the book of John give rise to two very different and irreconcilable world views about the very core of the religion. Yet you can find people with both interpretations within the same denomination of Christianity. Since this is an important belief, Christians with one reading of the verse could even be said to be closer, theologically, to Islam and other religions than to the Christians using the other reading.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Shemtov » 14 Jan 2019 22:38

Pabappa wrote:
14 Jan 2019 21:05
Firebird766 wrote:
12 Jan 2019 20:59


I also keep finding myself accidentally molding my current conreligion to be vaguely similar to the Abrahamic ones. Which I then need to correct because I don’t want to make Yet Another Christianity Clone.
Im curious what you mean, if youre willing to share. I think its impossible to be truly original when creating a religion because all of the big questions you can think of have been asked and answered. And just within Christianity one can find a wide variety of beliefs. For example, two different translations of a certain verse in the book of John give rise to two very different and irreconcilable world views about the very core of the religion. Yet you can find people with both interpretations within the same denomination of Christianity. Since this is an important belief, Christians with one reading of the verse could even be said to be closer, theologically, to Islam and other religions than to the Christians using the other reading.
Question:
Are you talking about the Neo-Arian vs. Orthodoxy spilt? Or something else? If so, please PM me.
Also, similarly, different analysis of a Sacred Text can impact the followers' Political views even if they are theologically the same. There's one passage in the Talmud, that depending on how you analyze it, caused a giant political split among Orthodox Jews (note that one way of analysis also impacts that sides eschatology).
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Firebird766 » 15 Jan 2019 04:29

Pabappa wrote:
14 Jan 2019 21:05
Im curious what you mean, if youre willing to share. I think its impossible to be truly original when creating a religion because all of the big questions you can think of have been asked and answered. And just within Christianity one can find a wide variety of beliefs. For example, two different translations of a certain verse in the book of John give rise to two very different and irreconcilable world views about the very core of the religion. Yet you can find people with both interpretations within the same denomination of Christianity. Since this is an important belief, Christians with one reading of the verse could even be said to be closer, theologically, to Islam and other religions than to the Christians using the other reading.
Taboos and social mores was the first thing I noticed. My conpeople’s views on homosexuality, suicide, and whatnot are the most obvious ones. Sex as a taboo topic. Marriage as the be-all-end-all of life.

And then I realized I’d basically aped the Cain and Abel story, though looking back I guess the concept of “two brothers get in a disagreement and one kills the other” is kind of a broad one. Bleh.

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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » 15 Jan 2019 13:43

Firebird766 wrote:
15 Jan 2019 04:29
Taboos and social mores was the first thing I noticed. My conpeople’s views on homosexuality, suicide, and whatnot are the most obvious ones. Sex as a taboo topic. Marriage as the be-all-end-all of life.

And then I realized I’d basically aped the Cain and Abel story, though looking back I guess the concept of “two brothers get in a disagreement and one kills the other” is kind of a broad one. Bleh.
Interesting.

That's the thing about those stories --- they express universals. In that case, perhaps, the more primitive response to fear, anger and envy.

If your worry is that you're just reinventing an old myth: be of good cheer! The truth is, without realising it, you tapped into humanity's earliest science, that of cultural self awareness. If your invented culture comprises humans or close analogues, that's a good place to be for a worldbuilder.

Without knowing what your invented culture's views on "homosexuality, suicide, and whatnot" are, the interesting fact that you listed those two highest on the list is, at least to me, indicative that you may be aping modern western / American (counter)culture viewpoints. I would have expected tabus and mores concerning sex, marriage & family to be at the top, most especially if marriage is the be-all-end-all of life!
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