(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 06 May 2016 22:40

Well, hand waving does do a lot to let us focus on the things we're most interested in. I think as long as you're aware that's what you're doing, there's no problem. The main issue in terms of how it affects you as you conworld will be looking at its history too closely.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 07 May 2016 05:16

Segano wrote:
The Civil War was an example, but it isn't the place to start figuring out how things are different in this timeline. The tensions over states' rights and slavery that led to the Civil War had been brewing for a long time beforehand. As far as I can tell, Iristan's territory encompassed basically the entire South, until after the Revolution, so how would those tensions have developed between two already separate nations? How did the the original Ten Colonies win the Revolution? I think it makes sense to start with the founding of Iristan and work forward, figuring out how that changes things.
I think one of the problems lies with the fact that Iristan originally controlled the entire south. For one, it is a lot of territory to control. I suppose it would be more plausible for them to sell some territory, that would explain the way the borders look.
um, no. they don't control the entire South. the Confederacy went out as far west as Mississippi and Tenn., and for a time I think even included Texas (before and after Texas was reduced from one nation to several states)

so unless the Confederates were allied with Iristan, they wouldn't have gone to war with the Union with so few member states.
This got me wondering, how did Iristan form in the first place?

16th and 17th century colonial powers tended not to like losing land. First how did they manage to colonize the land?
Let's assume they did, even if England did not try to restore its land, which is rather unlikely, 16th and 17th century Spain would have seen an unsupported refugee state as a perfect opportunity to expand. It would spend it's first two centuries as a colony without a metropolis surrounded by very powerful enemies. How does it persevere?
In my timeline, the areas colonized by Iristan were never colonized by Britain (i.e. Iristan wouldn't have been a British colony). Basically Iristan was formed after a couple of hundred people from the island of Ruhnu migrated to North America. There they would then expand.
a thought...perhaps Iristan began as a British colony(s) {Georgia, the Carolinas, southern Virginia}...but after the Revolution, when there were murmurings of going their own way - we had such murmurings in our timeline as well - Iristan forms...either as a counterbalance to the other colonies gathering into what would become the US (which had, among its major debates, whether to ally with Britain or with France; perhaps Iristan thought "neither, have fun" and went their own way)

and perhaps people from Ruhnu were simply more likely to get government jobs in Iristan (as opposed to Irishmen or Welshmen (etc) getting the jobs) because that's who were applying for the jobs.
It also think the problem lies with the fact that even just changing the tiniest thing could have enormous consequences. Kennedy may not have been born in Georgia or the Carolinas, but if he was born in one of these states, he would have been Iristani. He wouldn't have been president, something which would change a lot of things.
maybe his family moved at some point JFK's father and said dad's politics were more at home in the US, so maybe they moved to the US for that reason - or the Kennedys had moved to the US for some other reason at some point since they left Ireland.
I honestly couldn't even begin to come up with a plausible reason why everything looks the same as it does today. I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on this. :)
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 31 May 2016 00:34

Can non-civilized cultures have writing? I'm pretty sure they can have some form of writing, since Germanic tribes have runes, for instance, but I'm not sure how extensive it can be. Probably rudimentary runic-inscription-type stuff is the most common for a non-civilized but agricultural culture to have, and the ones with no writing at all tend to be hunter-gatherers and the ones with extensive writing are civilized.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 31 May 2016 01:23

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Can non-civilized cultures have writing?
"Here I am a barbarian, for no one understands me." -a famous Roman.

also: YES they can. its foreigners who would call the culture non-civilized.
and the ones with no writing at all tend to be hunter-gatherers and the ones with extensive writing are civilized.
except the ones who aren't.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 31 May 2016 01:34

Keenir wrote: also: YES they can. its foreigners who would call the culture non-civilized.
Civilisation is not a value judgement, but an objective sociological fact.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 31 May 2016 02:28

Salmoneus wrote:
Keenir wrote: also: YES they can. its foreigners who would call the culture non-civilized.
Civilisation is not a value judgement, but an objective sociological fact.
Civilization is an objective (but Eurocentric) sociological marker. Being civilized/barbarous is definitely not objective.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 31 May 2016 03:32

I mean civilized in the sense that they have certain social institutions and structures that you find in Greece, Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, most modern Western countries, etc. If civilized isn't the proper term for that, what is? Because I'm trying to describe people who don't have that without inserting values into it. Honestly I find cultures without civilization completely fascinating and a lot of (although certainly not all) uncivilized cultures are more "civilized" than civilized ones in the non-technical use of the word (I mean, it wasn't the ancient Germans or Celts who invented gladiator games, for instance...). My conworld doesn't have ubiquitous civilization so know who gets how much writing and from where is important. There are really only a few hubs of civilization and most people are uncivilized, and I write about the various uncivilized groups quite extensively rather than just writing about the civilized ones like most people. Considering how many people are into Vikings and Druids and stuff like that in real life, I'm surprised there aren't more conworlders writing extensively about uncivilized cultures.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 31 May 2016 04:26

HoskhMatriarch wrote:I mean civilized in the sense that they have certain social institutions and structures that you find in Greece, Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, most modern Western countries, etc. If civilized isn't the proper term for that, what is?
I think its "state societies".

as opposed to "tribes."
Honestly I find cultures without civilization completely fascinating
even Tarzan's apes had a civilization, I'm told. (in the books, at least)
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 31 May 2016 18:43

Well, if it's "state societies", then there are a lot of non-state societies in my conworld. The time that it takes place in is pretty much pre-medieval (except during the times I consider writing the entire history of the world from the dawn of the world to its destruction and the fight with the Abyssal, which I'll probably do, but still really do a lot of plot development and tone-setting in the pre-medieval period, since then a lot of important things in the history of the world happen).
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 31 May 2016 19:05

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, if it's "state societies", then there are a lot of non-state societies in my conworld. The time that it takes place in is pretty much pre-medieval (except during the times I consider writing the entire history of the world from the dawn of the world to its destruction and the fight with the Abyssal, which I'll probably do, but still really do a lot of plot development and tone-setting in the pre-medieval period, since then a lot of important things in the history of the world happen).
sounds neat; got anything we can read/beta/proofread ?
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 31 May 2016 19:32

Well, right now I'm still working out too many things. I have a good idea of the big picture and then some details here and there but not anything super coherent (although I often write stories, none of them are official yet. The names of everything and the languages change way too often too, and right now I'm in an inter-naming phase where I don't have names for much anything). I guess it's probably pretty unusual to set stories in pre-medieval times rather than medieval times, no matter how fanciful you make it. (And I'm not sure I should be calling it "pre-medieval times" since it's not Earth, I just mean that it's like Roman or other empire times rather than a feudal society like most fantasy seems to be.)
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 31 May 2016 23:13

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, right now I'm still working out too many things. I have a good idea of the big picture and then some details here and there but not anything super coherent (although I often write stories, none of them are official yet. The names of everything and the languages change way too often too,
as The Professor could attest, the names always change - that makes stories no less readable.
I guess it's probably pretty unusual to set stories in pre-medieval times rather than medieval times, no matter how fanciful you make it. (And I'm not sure I should be calling it "pre-medieval times" since it's not Earth, I just mean that it's like Roman or other empire times rather than a feudal society like most fantasy seems to be.)
I've read a lot of fiction and mysteries set in Roman times; and I've seen lots of Big-Dang-Empires novels out there, some with and some without feudalism.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 01 Jun 2016 02:33

I've mastered a table RPG match set in the Bronze-age, and more than once thought about how cool would Bronze and Iron age fantasy be. I guess i'm a bronzepunk kid of fellow.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 02 Jun 2016 16:19

Actually, feudalism is relatively rare in fantasy novels - at least, it always used to be (I'm not up to date). Typically, although the tech level is more late mediaeval, early renaissance, the political system is renaissance (internecine republics, monarchs and their ministers centralising power away from grumpy old dukes, each typically a mini-monarch over a region) or enlightenment (centralised absolute monarchies, noble titles only an indicator of hereditary status, standing armies), or else some form of classical imperialism.

The more complicated arrangements distinctive in feudalism (nobles as effectively sovereign and bound only by personal oaths of allegiance; political geography as a complex patchwork of tiny holdings controlled in a geographically-non-contiguous way; conscript armies bound by hereditary contracts (a certain number of weeks per year) supplemented by mercenary companies) are rare. In fantasy, everyone in Merendia is ruled by the King of Merendia, in some cases via the Duke of Polostia who sub-rules the Duchy of Polostia. In feudalism, you're ruled by the Baron of Mangovia (who lives 500 miles away), though your neighbour is ruled by the Count of Hordense (who lives in another country), and both the Baron and the Count have sworn allegiance to the King of Merendia, who is responsible for maintaining some laws in you area but not others (which are traditionally the responsibilty of the Bishop of Noxen, who is also the Earl of Waffen, an Earldom comprising about five acres somewhere near the arctic circle). So in a way you think of yourself as Merendian. But both the Baron and the Count have ALSO sworn allegiance to the Duke of Nalesia, and although the Dukes of Nalesia traditionally swear allegiance to the Kings of Merendia, the current Duke (who is also the King of Mikobia, Lessenia, Hypolia and Lak, Duke of Vesser, Viscount of Orb, Elector Palatine and Archimandrite of Drox) is currently at war with the King of Merendia, at least qua his role as King of Lessenia and qua the King of Merendia's alternative role as the Prince-Archbishop of Hengen (though the Kings of Merendia and Hypolia are simultaneously close allies in their war again the Count of of Hypolia, who has no claim to any land anywhere but is a cousin of the Prince of Elidia), so who the hell knows who is in charge...

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Foolster41 » 02 Jun 2016 21:57

Any good suggestions for someone who feels stuck on their conworld and feels it's not very well fleshed out?

I think I asked this before and got questions about economy. I've been doing a little research more recently (as well as stuff on class structure), and I'm having a hard time finding anything interesting. I can't find much in terms of non-modern economic systems besides Feudalism, and I kind of feel like I don't want to do something weird/different for the sake of being weird/different.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 02 Jun 2016 22:10

Foolster41 wrote:Any good suggestions for someone who feels stuck on their conworld and feels it's not very well fleshed out?

I think I asked this before and got questions about economy. I've been doing a little research more recently (as well as stuff on class structure), and I'm having a hard time finding anything interesting. I can't find much in terms of non-modern economic systems besides Feudalism, and I kind of feel like I don't want to do something weird/different for the sake of being weird/different.
well, what "non-interesting" things have you encountered thus far?

the Incan system of mit'a? the Big Man system of various places?
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Foolster41 » 02 Jun 2016 22:25

Keenir wrote:
Foolster41 wrote:Any good suggestions for someone who feels stuck on their conworld and feels it's not very well fleshed out?

I think I asked this before and got questions about economy. I've been doing a little research more recently (as well as stuff on class structure), and I'm having a hard time finding anything interesting. I can't find much in terms of non-modern economic systems besides Feudalism, and I kind of feel like I don't want to do something weird/different for the sake of being weird/different.
well, what "non-interesting" things have you encountered thus far?

the Incan system of mit'a? the Big Man system of various places?
Apparently you're better at googling than me. I'll look at those, thanks.

Recomendations for other suggestions for fleshing out my world is welcome.
I guess I should link to info about it. You can find info on the wiki here.

Edit: Actually, Saltha has a similar thing to M'ta. They must serve in the temple and the military at age 15. Adding civil work (such
as road building) makes sense too.

Edit: Here's a small article on the social class structure of Saltha

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 04 Jun 2016 06:52

loglorn wrote:I've mastered a table RPG match set in the Bronze-age, and more than once thought about how cool would Bronze and Iron age fantasy be. I guess i'm a bronzepunk kind of fellow.
Bronzepunk kind of describes The World pretty well, in its retro-neo-bronze-age technology level. Otherwise, I guess Dwimmerpunk.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, right now I'm still working out too many things. I have a good idea of the big picture and then some details here and there but not anything super coherent (although I often write stories, none of them are official yet. The names of everything and the languages change way too often too, and right now I'm in an inter-naming phase where I don't have names for much anything). I guess it's probably pretty unusual to set stories in pre-medieval times rather than medieval times, no matter how fanciful you make it. (And I'm not sure I should be calling it "pre-medieval times" since it's not Earth, I just mean that it's like Roman or other empire times rather than a feudal society like most fantasy seems to be.)
Just my penny-hapenny here, but, really. Sometimes you just have to piss or get off the pot.

Just make a decision and leave it at that. One thing I've noticed in your posts, and I'm sure this is a function of your style, is that you seem to have some difficulty making decisions wrt your conlang. Just think about all those things your dislike about some natlangs vs others. Is it really such a horrible thing if there is a feature or some aspects of phonology that you are not absolutely sure about? Does your conlang have to 100000000% perfect for you to use it?

As for the setting, I don't really think you need to really compare it with Earth history. The setting is just an imperial fantasy of some kind. Anyone who reads your stories will be able to see that it's not really "medieval" or "feudal" in nature!
Last edited by elemtilas on 04 Jun 2016 16:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Jun 2016 11:23

elemtilas wrote:
loglorn wrote:I've mastered a table RPG match set in the Bronze-age, and more than once thought about how cool would Bronze and Iron age fantasy be. I guess i'm a bronzepunk kind of fellow.
Bronzepunk kind of describes The World pretty well, in its retro-neo-bronze-age technology level. Otherwise, I guess Dwimpunk.

Why not "Dwimmerpunk"? I think that has a better ring to it, for a hapenny. :wat:

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, right now I'm still working out too many things. I have a good idea of the big picture and then some details here and there but not anything super coherent (although I often write stories, none of them are official yet. The names of everything and the languages change way too often too, and right now I'm in an inter-naming phase where I don't have names for much anything). I guess it's probably pretty unusual to set stories in pre-medieval times rather than medieval times, no matter how fanciful you make it. (And I'm not sure I should be calling it "pre-medieval times" since it's not Earth, I just mean that it's like Roman or other empire times rather than a feudal society like most fantasy seems to be.)
Just my penny-hapenny here, but, really. Sometimes you just have to piss or get off the pot.

Just make a decision and leave it at that. One thing I've noticed in your posts, and I'm sure this is a function of your style, is that you seem to have some difficulty making decisions wrt your conlang. Just think about all those things your dislike about some natlangs vs others. Is it really such a horrible thing if there is a feature or some aspects of phonology that you are not absolutely sure about? Does your conlang have to 100000000% perfect for you to use it?

As for the setting, I don't really think you need to really compare it with Earth history. The setting is just an imperial fantasy of some kind. Anyone who reads your stories will be able to see that it's not really "medieval" or "feudal" in nature!
[/quote]


This would take some more discipline of Hoskh's part, but why not travel down both forks of the road a little?
That's how Rozwi, and it's sisterlang/culture Yauchuan got started: I collected the lichens, scrimshaw, dust-bunnies and other ideas that were 'interesting' but somehow didn't fit the aesthetic I was after for Rozwi... that's how Yauchuan got started. And, what didn't quite sound/feel right for either of those two, a number of those lefterover ideas became a third sisterlang Kwijin. All members of the even biggered venerable and mighty Klae-Ungan language clan, with wisadom and power and honor and blessing unto the generations upon generations.


But, yeah, get to fudging work already, Hoskh, as I have mentioned before. [¬.¬]

SHOW us something.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 04 Jun 2016 16:40

Lambuzhao wrote:
elemtilas wrote:Bronzepunk kind of describes The World pretty well, in its retro-neo-bronze-age technology level. Otherwise, I guess Dwimpunk.

Why not "Dwimmerpunk"? I think that has a better ring to it, for a hapenny. :wat:
Fixed! Yeah, I like the ring of Dwimmerpunk better.

HoskhMatriarch wrote:I'm still working out too many things. I have a good idea of the big picture and then some details here and there but not anything super coherent (although I often write stories, none of them are official yet. The names of everything and the languages change way too often too
elemtilas wrote:Just make a decision and leave it at that.
Lambuzhao wrote:This would take some more discipline of Hoskh's part, but why not travel down both forks of the road a little?
That's how Rozwi, and it's sisterlang/culture Yauchuan got started: I collected the lichens, scrimshaw, dust-bunnies and other ideas that were 'interesting' but somehow didn't fit the aesthetic I was after for Rozwi... that's how Yauchuan got started. And, what didn't quite sound/feel right for either of those two, a number of those lefterover ideas became a third sisterlang Kwijin. All members of the even biggered venerable and mighty Klae-Ungan language clan, with wisadom and power and honor and blessing unto the generations upon generations.
This is certainly a fantastic methodology, and one that I employ in The World. I'll find an interesting bit of ephemera - plants, certainly, though I haven't yet investigated the wonderful and interesting adventures of Dust Bunnies (hmmm...) - and sometimes leave it aside until I discover where it fits in the puzzle. I certainly wasn't implying that exploration of tiny details is a Bad Thing, only that there does come a time when there's been enough chat and it's time for show-and-tell!

Lambuzhao wrote:But, yeah, get to fudging work already, Hoskh, as I have mentioned before. [¬.¬]

SHOW us something.
Zackly!

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