(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Discussions about constructed worlds, cultures and any topics related to constructed societies.
Keenir
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2383
Joined: 22 May 2012 03:05

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 10 Sep 2019 01:24

LinguoFranco wrote:
31 Aug 2019 22:23
Would a humanoid race that has tails make things inconvenient, like sitting or wearing pants? What are some ways to get around this?

I'm talking about anthropomorphic animals, of course.
that probably depends on things like
  • how flexible are their tails, particularly where the tail attaches to the body
    do they have pants with tailholes, kilts?
    do they sit in chairs, on sofas, on blankets, or just kneel during meals?
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6387
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 10 Sep 2019 18:47

LinguoFranco wrote:
31 Aug 2019 22:23
Would a humanoid race that has tails make things inconvenient, like sitting or wearing pants? What are some ways to get around this?

I'm talking about anthropomorphic animals, of course.
Dogs have tails, and sit.
Some horses and donkeys and mules sometimes sit, I think, though not often.
Cats sit and wrap their tails around all four feet so they can’t be seen. They follow the motto “if i fits I sits”.
Monkeys have tails and do whatever it is monkeys do.

Birds perch. Or at least passerines do.

Their chairs or stools or other seats might be different.

Animals with tails might wear trews or hose or leggings instead of pantaloons.
Or chaps.

tl;dr summary: idk.

User avatar
LinguoFranco
greek
greek
Posts: 463
Joined: 20 Jul 2016 17:49
Location: U.S.

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » 13 Sep 2019 18:58

eldin raigmore wrote:
10 Sep 2019 18:47
LinguoFranco wrote:
31 Aug 2019 22:23
Would a humanoid race that has tails make things inconvenient, like sitting or wearing pants? What are some ways to get around this?

I'm talking about anthropomorphic animals, of course.
Dogs have tails, and sit.
Some horses and donkeys and mules sometimes sit, I think, though not often.
Cats sit and wrap their tails around all four feet so they can’t be seen. They follow the motto “if i fits I sits”.
Monkeys have tails and do whatever it is monkeys do.

Birds perch. Or at least passerines do.

Their chairs or stools or other seats might be different.

Animals with tails might wear trews or hose or leggings instead of pantaloons.
Or chaps.

tl;dr summary: idk.
I just had an idea for pants. Discussions I have read on the topic suggest that animals could have a slot or cut out that is U shaped to allow the tail to rest on top of it rather than a hole to put it through. I think that there should also be some kind of strap that buttons after the tail goes through, to keep it in place.

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 292
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 28 Sep 2019 14:18

Concerning my planet, I decided to go with the hothouse climate. It's interesting...

- global circulation stays the same: rising air at the equator, falling air at the tropics, rising air at the polar circles and falling air at the poles as well as corresponding humid and arid belts*.

- temperature gradient between the equator and the poles is small: this is especially true of the sea, but also of land**. Absolute global temperatures are higher, but high latitudes are relatively much warmer and low latitudes may be relatively colder. There's still tropical and temperate rainforests separated by an arid zone, but the flora and fauna of temperate rainforests ends up being pretty much the same as that of tropical rainforests. Poles may be warm enough to support broadleaf forests and there is no permanent ice and snow at the poles.

- increased temperature, especially ocean temperatures, means increased evaporation and increased precipitation. Humid belts expand and arid belts contract: instead of 10 degrees, tropical rainforests extend to 20 degrees north an south, tropical grasslands partially or, if the continent is small and maritime enough, completely replace tropical deserts, which are in any case limited to the immediate neighborhood of horse latitudes. Poles end up being much wetter (I haven't read this everywhere, but I suspect they're dry today because it's so cold there's practically no evaporation). The resulting cloud cover is thought to prevent them from loosing too much heat during winter.


It's interesting to thing how civilization might develop in this world. Would the polar latitudes be a good place to develop agriculture? They'd be habitable but there'd still be a need to store food for winter since I doubt leaves or fruits would grow during a months long night. As for urbanized, large-scale civilizations, it is thought they developed where there was a need for irrigation, and there'd be much less such areas in a hothouse world than in an icehouse one.



*Uninhabitable tropics in the Triassic and the early Jurassic seem to be a result of contemporary geography, namely the existence of Pangea: arid belts expanded towards the equator and deserts replaced the rainforest, likely because of increased continentality and monsoons so that evaporation around the equator exceeded precipitation. This was somewhat like Somalian climate, but on a larger scale: central and eastern tropical Pangea was completely arid while western tropical pangea was more hospitable. None of that applies to my planet.

**Some pollen finds from Antarctica suggest palm trees and other subtropical vegetation at the coasts, and broadleaf forests akin to those of New Zealand inland. This lends credence to the idea that a circumequatorial current driven heat transport trough the oceans is a key component of hothouse climates.
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1513
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen » 29 Sep 2019 21:29

Zekoslav wrote:
28 Sep 2019 14:18
Concerning my planet, I decided to go with the hothouse climate. It's interesting...
Indeed, thanks for sharing it. [:)]
Poles end up being much wetter (I haven't read this everywhere, but I suspect they're dry today because it's so cold there's practically no evaporation).
Partially, perhaps, but my understanding is that it's also specifically because they're relatively cold, i.e. colder than their surroundings. The descending mass of cold air creates a high pressure zone and winds blowing away from the poles, taking what moisture does evaporate with them, and blocking wet weather systems generated elsewhere from reaching the poles. This would presumably to some extent still be the case in your scenario, but depending on various factors like ocean currents, the positions of land masses, exact temperatures and whatnot, I suppose it could still work.

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1685
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 29 Sep 2019 22:49

I seem to recall that an odd number of atmospheric cells per hemisphere (i.e. relatively dry poles) is a physical universal. Although come to think of it, perhaps Uranus is a counterexample? So maybe if you have your planet lying on its side, that might change things.

Otherwise, no, your poles will be relatively dry.

User avatar
Pabappa
sinic
sinic
Posts: 278
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41
Contact:

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 30 Sep 2019 00:56

i'd always assumed an even number of cells wouldnt work because thered be no way to get all the storms to cluster together at the poles ... but on second thought, that doesnt explain a lot , since we already have subsidence clustered together at the poles. and that subsidence (high pressure) quickly become low pressure as one ascends through the atmosphere, which is why the atmospher is much thinner at hte poles thant the quator. sorry i didnt sleep last night. my typing is far form its best but you all get the picytre.

i wanted to post more on this thread but I havebt been able to keep up. I like that youve chosen to go exotic, though, as not too many conworlders are that brave.
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 292
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 30 Sep 2019 13:36

Re: polar climate. I'm aware of the fact that poles will always be relatively dry due to descending air, and I'm struggling to combine paleontological data with that fact: while relatively dry, they were wet enough to support forests (to be fair it's hard to collect pollen from central Antarctica... maybe it was grassland in the middle of the continent, for all we know).

I was thinking that, maybe, the coastal forests would be able to trap moisture, allowing the growth of more forest further inland, and so on an so on... kind of like Californian redwood forests and the Amazon. This could lead to some nice (i.e. interesting, not pleasant!) ecological disasters once agriculture and deforestation appear.

In addition, considering that the sea will be permanently warm, and the land will have pretty large temperature swings due to polar day and night, would that lead to some kind of monsoon? i.e. would the high pressure zone turn into low pressure zone in summer, or is it impossible due to the aforementioned physical universal?

EDIT: most models of climate change predict increased rainfall in high latitudes, including poles, although I haven't been able to find the cause since I don't understand the papers' jargon.
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

User avatar
LinguoFranco
greek
greek
Posts: 463
Joined: 20 Jul 2016 17:49
Location: U.S.

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » 30 Sep 2019 18:11

eldin raigmore wrote:
10 Sep 2019 18:47
LinguoFranco wrote:
31 Aug 2019 22:23
Would a humanoid race that has tails make things inconvenient, like sitting or wearing pants? What are some ways to get around this?

I'm talking about anthropomorphic animals, of course.
Dogs have tails, and sit.
Some horses and donkeys and mules sometimes sit, I think, though not often.
Cats sit and wrap their tails around all four feet so they can’t be seen. They follow the motto “if i fits I sits”.
Monkeys have tails and do whatever it is monkeys do.

Birds perch. Or at least passerines do.

Their chairs or stools or other seats might be different.

Animals with tails might wear trews or hose or leggings instead of pantaloons.
Or chaps.

tl;dr summary: idk.
Maybe they could have those short Japanese tables that they sit around without chairs.

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 292
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 19 Oct 2019 15:59

After having read more about wind patterns in hothouse worlds, I've come to the conclusion that they're unknown. There are mutliple contradictory models!

Most people agree that tropics expand, while concerning polar circles some suggest that they expand and others that they contract. If expansion is true, that would mean that polar easterlies would expand equatorward (this may be true and may the the explanation for why Patagonia used to be wet: it was under the effect of polar easterlies while now it's under the effect of westerlies, or rather isn't because there's mountains in the way). If contraction is true, then that means that it's the westerlies that shift poleward.

This is true only for the cold season, where the poles are higher pressure than lower latitudes. In warm seasons, the pressure gradient breaks down and the polar jet stream disappears. Because of that the westerlies are disrupted... how much depends on the model. In some models they're just weakened, in some they break down completely (replaced by local, land-and-sea based wind patterns, like mini-monsoons). They remain the strongest right at the ferrel/hadley cell border.

This summertime weakening of westerlies can have interesting consequence, such as mediterranean climate expanding to Ireland and England...

Chaos!
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

User avatar
Pabappa
sinic
sinic
Posts: 278
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41
Contact:

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 19 Oct 2019 17:07

Zekoslav wrote:
19 Oct 2019 15:59

This summertime weakening of westerlies can have interesting consequence, such as mediterranean climate expanding to Ireland and England...
We basically have that in North America, where even into southwestern Canada the summer is much drier than the winter. Washington & Oregon are remarkably dry in summer for their latitude .... even Europe doesnt compare. Though I think this may be due to differences in pressure and sea temperature, and not so much from the winds ... unless the winds are themselves carried by those differences in temperature and pressure.
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 292
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 19 Oct 2019 19:07

Pabappa wrote:
19 Oct 2019 17:07
Zekoslav wrote:
19 Oct 2019 15:59

This summertime weakening of westerlies can have interesting consequence, such as mediterranean climate expanding to Ireland and England...
We basically have that in North America, where even into southwestern Canada the summer is much drier than the winter. Washington & Oregon are remarkably dry in summer for their latitude .... even Europe doesnt compare. Though I think this may be due to differences in pressure and sea temperature, and not so much from the winds ... unless the winds are themselves carried by those differences in temperature and pressure.
It would be nice if I could rely on an agreed model to apply to my planet, but climate is so complex that there's not even an agreed model! At this point I better stop worrying too much. Some scientists think basically nothing changes when temperature increases, others think everything breaks down!

This and this map don't tell much. The first is based on data, and is quite spotty due to lack thereof. The second is based on a model. The data based map has pretty much the same humid and arid pattern as today's world, while the model based map has subtropical arid (and humid) areas extending much more poleward, sometimes contradicting the data based map.

At this point I better just make my temperate forests jungles, my taigas temperate forests and my tundras and icecaps temperate grasslands..
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1685
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 19 Oct 2019 19:19

Pabappa wrote:
19 Oct 2019 17:07
Washington & Oregon are remarkably dry in summer for their latitude .... even Europe doesnt compare.
Average precipitation, June-September, in Seattle: 118mm. In Madrid: 65mm. There's only one month in which Seattle isn't at least twice as rainy as Madrid, and no month when it's drier overall. Even in Spokane, it's 80mm. [Spokane is drier than Madrid over July-October, because Madrid gets a bit wet in October, but October is clearly not 'summer' anymore].

[In Bend, Oregon, it's 56mm, which is admittedly drier than Madrid, but then Bend is in an area called 'The High Desert', so that's not a great surprise. Bend is dry because it's 140m from the sea, on the other side of TWO mountain ranges, both higher than the hills in Spain, and is at twice the altitude of Madrid]

User avatar
Pabappa
sinic
sinic
Posts: 278
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41
Contact:

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 19 Oct 2019 21:42

I meant the coasts .... the comparison holds up for the interiors too, but I didnt bring it up because Europe doesnt have a giant mountain range right along the west coast comparable to North America's. Still, to answer the Madrid vs Seattle thing ... those cities are not at equal latitudes. compare instead Seattle to extreme northern France or Vancouver to southern England. and Astoria, OR shows that this dryness extends out into the extreme coastal locations as well. even Bella Coola still has a noticeable summer dry period, all the way up at 52°N.
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1685
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 19 Oct 2019 23:42

...OK, first, sorry I didn't guess that by "remarkably dry, even Europe doesn't compare" you meant that "right on the coast, parts are drier than parts of Europe at an equivalent latitude", which is not quite the same thing.

Second, here's June-August three-month average summer precipitation for settlements at more or less the same latitude, from south to north, on the extreme coast of America and Europe:

Brookings: 80mm
Viana do Castello: 80mm

Astoria: 120mm
La Rochelle: 128mm

Henderson Lake: 162mm
Ushant: 153mm


I'm not seeing a "remarkable" difference here.

[of course, the precipitation patterns aren't identical. The American settlements are wetter in spring (so would be wetter if we included April and May in these numbers), whereas the European settments are wetter in autumn (so would be wetter if we included September and October).]

User avatar
Pabappa
sinic
sinic
Posts: 278
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41
Contact:

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 20 Oct 2019 00:09

All three of those American settlements are clearly wetter in autumn than those that line up with them in Europe. And in winter, and in spring. Which is why they can *almost* be classified as Mediterranean ... and that's only "almost" because it's the temperatures that keep them from qualifying, not the rainfall.

I dont understand why you led in your first post by picking cities with misaligned latitudes. Wouldnt the good-faith assumption be that I was comparing like against like?

But this isnt about my conworld, and the original poster isnt going to get anything out of this debate, so I have no real intent to keep on arguing this topic, and if you still feel that youre right and Im wrong, Im perfectly OK with that. Thanks for the conversation even so.
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 292
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 13 Nov 2019 14:32

After weeks of perfectionistic procrastination, I finally got enough inspiration to start properly working on my climatically controversial conworld. And no, it's not climate, it's tectonics!

Image

Yellow: outline of continental shelf, Red: divergent boundary, Blue: convergent boundary, White: transform boundary.


It's a work in progress, and there will definitely be divergent boundaries in the small tropical ocean and the southern polar ocean (you can see on the map that some continents fit together [;)]), as well as somewhere in the big tropical ocean, but I don't know where as of now. The reason for this is that when comparing the ratio of land and sea to Earth, there is space for one, roughly South America sized continent. I thought to make it very long and thin and to put it around the equator at the west edge of the map, so that it blocks sea currents and reduces the heating effect of the circumtropical current. However, the eastern side of the map is very empty and a continent there would look nice from a graphical point of view. What do you think?
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Post Reply