(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by thetha » 09 Nov 2014 05:57

Ahzoh wrote:I mean physically painting their flesh... with artistic designs and vibrant colours. They would do it to the entire body, not an inch would be spared, well, except maybe the genitals...
How uncommon is it to just dress up your deceased people? If they were wearing clothes you wouldn't have to worry about dealing with genitals.

EDIT: I totally just ignored your last post and then I noticed you addressed this. But anyway, my first question still stands just as general curiosity.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 09 Nov 2014 06:18

Teddy wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I mean physically painting their flesh... with artistic designs and vibrant colours. They would do it to the entire body, not an inch would be spared, well, except maybe the genitals...
How uncommon is it to just dress up your deceased people? If they were wearing clothes you wouldn't have to worry about dealing with genitals.

EDIT: I totally just ignored your last post and then I noticed you addressed this. But anyway, my first question still stands just as general curiosity.
Vrkhazh people do not dress up their deceased people, they feel that it is not sufficient treatment of their loved ones, only the desperately poor may do this in place of paint.
There are also spiritual reasons, such that they think that the weight of clothes would cause their loved one to become restless, at most only the undergarments (shorts-like clothes made of linen that protect against sand parasites) would be worn.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » 09 Nov 2014 06:30

Ahzoh wrote:
I imagine it would only take an hour since the extended family is involved.
I imagine the final varnishing/shellacking would take about an hour.

This, after (if we use Ancient Egyptian Mummification as a measuring-stick) weeks (6-10) of knitting-needling out the gushy inside bits, anointing with oils and softened tree-gums or resins, primer-coating with some kind of foundation, powdering with salts and ground spices, possibly fumigating with sulphur/incense/camphor, smoking with aromatic woods, anointing again, adding various other colors, etc. Repeat. Again, this part took the Egyptians 6-10 weeks (40-70 days) to accomplish.

The only way to possibly cut down on the time of this process post mortem is if the person began preparations before death. I'm thinking of Japanese Buddhist monks who literally prepared their bodies in a ritual of self-mummification, about which you can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu
http://www.agorajournal.org/2005/Lowe.pdf

Frankly, I find this a little morbid myself, but it is a possibility for the more doughty of your con-inhabitants.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 09 Nov 2014 07:06

I don't really want Egyptian-style mummies (such as the removing of organs), I just want painted bodies... surely a corpse is "fresh" for two or three hours? And by fresh I mean not smelling and being unsanitary...
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 09 Nov 2014 23:36

Ahzoh wrote:I don't really want Egyptian-style mummies (such as the removing of organs), I just want painted bodies... surely a corpse is "fresh" for two or three hours? And by fresh I mean not smelling and being unsanitary...
Well, "fresh" as in "not yet obviously putrefying", sure;
but "unsanitary" begins at death, because all the sphincters relax.
By the same token "smelling" begins at death; only it smells of shit and piss rather than of rotten meat.
That's why corpses have to be bathed as part of the laying-out before a wake.

The painting may actually help to preserve the body somewhat, or at least keep it from putrefying too fast or smelling too bad if the funeral or wake takes three days as some of them do. It might be the customary thing to do right after washing the body.

Even if you don't want to remove all the organs, you may want to remove the intestines; they'll probably bloat and unsanitary contents will seep out of them otherwise. I don't know, but, maybe the same would be true of the lungs (or any other hollow organs that communicate with the outside of the body).

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Nov 2014 02:05

eldin raigmore wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I don't really want Egyptian-style mummies (such as the removing of organs), I just want painted bodies... surely a corpse is "fresh" for two or three hours? And by fresh I mean not smelling and being unsanitary...
Well, "fresh" as in "not yet obviously putrefying", sure;
but "unsanitary" begins at death, because all the sphincters relax.
By the same token "smelling" begins at death; only it smells of shit and piss rather than of rotten meat.
That's why corpses have to be bathed as part of the laying-out before a wake.

The painting may actually help to preserve the body somewhat, or at least keep it from putrefying too fast or smelling too bad if the funeral or wake takes three days as some of them do. It might be the customary thing to do right after washing the body.

Even if you don't want to remove all the organs, you may want to remove the intestines; they'll probably bloat and unsanitary contents will seep out of them otherwise. I don't know, but, maybe the same would be true of the lungs (or any other hollow organs that communicate with the outside of the body).
I did not think about funerary wake lasting three, and I don't remember any of the funerals I've been to lasting more than a day, who would wait three days?
Maybe they will get someone to "prepare" the body by removing the intestines, maybe replace it will salts and other preservatives, and stitch it back up after it is done...

I only imagined that family members and friends would gather at the bedside watching as the person lays dying and that as soon as they did, the family members would begin painting as soon as the person died without hesitation, but what then if someone dies unexpectedly and you came to know about only three hours later or even three days later? It would need to be preserved...
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by MrKrov » 10 Nov 2014 02:47

ahzoh wrote:I did not think about funerary wake lasting three, and I don't remember any of the funerals I've been to lasting more than a day, who would wait three days?
My grandma's funeral didn't last three days; it just took as long to sort stuff out to get to that point.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 10 Nov 2014 06:14

Ahzoh wrote:I did not think about funerary wake lasting three, and I don't remember any of the funerals I've been to lasting more than a day, who would wait three days?
When and where I was growing up in the South, in some black churches funerals typically lasted three days. So they wanted a very thorough embalming.

My father was a pathologist; he was the Coroner for Miller County Arkansas, and the County Medical Examiner for Bowie County Texas.
He was also one of the most active laymen in the white Protestant churches, and one of the white laymen most often invited to participate in black church services.

Autopsies were usually performed at the funeral homes. Pathologists and morticians had to co-operate. The morticians had to be careful not to destroy any evidence the pathologist needed, at least not until the pathologist had seen it; and the pathologist had to be careful not to disfigure the body's bones and external flesh in such a way that the mortician couldn't replace or hide it. So usually his "diener" was one of the morticians.

For these and other reasons he knew about the funerary customs of the various sub-communities around metropolitan Texarkana.

For instance, Jews wanted the body buried as quickly as possible. You can see in Genesis that they thought like that millenia ago; and I think it's even written down as God's commandment somewhere in the Hebrew Bible (probably Leviticus or Deuteronomy, maybe Numbers, I admit I don't know where).

White churches, or at least most of them, had the funerals sooner and faster than the black churches (for the most part), but not as soon or as fast as the synagogues (for the most part). So they tended to need more embalming than the synagogues but not as much as the black churches.

Of course some Protestant churches have very definite "views" about funerals that others don't. Some prefer cremation; some prohibit it, or nearly so. Some don't like expense or "fanciness" at the funeral or at the monument (the cemetary's grave-marker). Some, like Catholic churches, like a lot of religious statuary around the monument.
We had some Mormons in town, but I don't know that we had enough of them for my father to ever have autopsied any of them. Or maybe they just managed not to die in any way that left medical or legal or other questions. (I say "other" because he did autopsy a cropduster pilot; the FAA requires a complete autopsy of both plane and pilot whenever there's a fatal crash. That's not really a medical question like "what on earth kind of disease killed this patient?", nor a legal question like "was this guy murdered?", but its a question that requires an autopsy.)
AFAICR we never had any Muslims in town while I was there.
I remember some Jehovah's Witnesses.
I remember some Sikhs.
Again, AFAICR, none of them were ever autopsied.
Maybe they will get someone to "prepare" the body by removing the intestines, maybe replace it will salts and other preservatives, and stitch it back up after it is done…
That's a big part of what mummification is.
I gather your people don't actually want the corpse to last and last and last.
If arable land is at a premium they might want to make sure the fleshy parts of the body will turn to earth in two years or less -- maybe even one year or less.
They may have the custom of digging up the corpse after two years and just saving the bones in a monument, and re-using the grave for the next funeral.
The box they put the corpse in to have its flesh turned to earth would be called a "flesh-eater" or "sarco-phagus". The box they save the bones in would be called an "ossuary".
If they start running out of room to save the bones, they might sort them by type of bone rather than by who they're the bones of.
I only imagined that family members and friends would gather at the bedside watching as the person lays dying and that as soon as they did, the family members would begin painting as soon as the person died without hesitation, but what then if someone dies unexpectedly and you came to know about only three hours later or even three days later? It would need to be preserved...
If you're there when they die you'll notice right away that their sphincters have let loose. You'll want to wash them and their bedding and move them to some hard surface that you can sanitize afterward and won't ever use for any purpose where you really need it to be really sanitary. It's unlikely that just one person can do that without assistance.
Anyway, as soon as they're washed and dried, you could start painting them. That would make sense.

If you find them before there's any risk that trying to move them around will pull their flesh from their bones or their skin from their flesh or whatever -- before their flesh starts to soften -- then you'll probably want to wash them just as you would have if you'd been there at the time; and painting them might still be in order.

You might just poke a hole in their gastro-intestinal tract to let out the gaseous and liquid contents. Or you might want to go further; fill their stomachs and intestines with something that will keep everything from getting any stinkier and keep it from getting any bloatier. You might do that through their mouth and/or anus, or you might poke a hole in the front or back or side, or any combination of those ideas.

Face it -- a corpse is a very large waste-disposal problem for an average single-family household. Some industrial operations regularly handle bigger waste-disposal problems, but the average everyday one-family household doesn't.

The family may have a smokehouse where they preserve meat and/or other food by smoking it. They may decide to do that with the corpse.
I can see major problems with that idea.
First, you can be careful that the meat you smoke was healthy until you killed it, and that you killed it in a sanitary way. But you have no control over what killed the corpse; and it is even likelier to be something that could also kill you.
Second, the point of smoking meat (or other food) is that it won't rot; insects and microbes and so on won't "eat" it, so it will last at least more than a season (usually more than a year). But you've already said (or, at least, I thought you said) that your people don't want the corpse to last too long.

Anyway;
IMO it's an intriguing problem.

Think they might lacquer or shellac the corpse? Or varnish it? or something?
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Nov 2014 06:36

eldin raigmore wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I did not think about funerary wake lasting three, and I don't remember any of the funerals I've been to lasting more than a day, who would wait three days?
When and where I was growing up in the South, in some black churches funerals typically lasted three days. So they wanted a very thorough embalming.

My father was a pathologist; he was the Coroner for Miller County Arkansas, and the County Medical Examiner for Bowie County Texas.
He was also one of the most active laymen in the white Protestant churches, and one of the white laymen most often invited to participate in black church services.

Autopsies were usually performed at the funeral homes. Pathologists and morticians had to co-operate. The morticians had to be careful not to destroy any evidence the pathologist needed, at least not until the pathologist had seen it; and the pathologist had to be careful not to disfigure the body's bones and external flesh in such a way that the mortician couldn't replace or hide it. So usually his "diener" was one of the morticians.

For these and other reasons he knew about the funerary customs of the various sub-communities around metropolitan Texarkana.

For instance, Jews wanted the body buried as quickly as possible. You can see in Genesis that they thought like that millenia ago; and I think it's even written down as God's commandment somewhere in the Hebrew Bible (probably Leviticus or Deuteronomy, maybe Numbers, I admit I don't know where).

White churches, or at least most of them, had the funerals sooner and faster than the black churches (for the most part), but not as soon or as fast as the synagogues (for the most part). So they tended to need more embalming than the synagogues but not as much as the black churches.

Of course some Protestant churches have very definite "views" about funerals that others don't. Some prefer cremation; some prohibit it, or nearly so. Some don't like expense or "fanciness" at the funeral or at the monument (the cemetary's grave-marker). Some, like Catholic churches, like a lot of religious statuary around the monument.
We had some Mormons in town, but I don't know that we had enough of them for my father to ever have autopsied any of them. Or maybe they just managed not to die in any way that left medical or legal or other questions. (I say "other" because he did autopsy a cropduster pilot; the FAA requires a complete autopsy of both plane and pilot whenever there's a fatal crash. That's not really a medical question like "what on earth kind of disease killed this patient?", nor a legal question like "was this guy murdered?", but its a question that requires an autopsy.)
AFAICR we never had any Muslims in town while I was there.
I remember some Jehovah's Witnesses.
I remember some Sikh's.
Again, AFAICR, none of them were ever autopsied.
Maybe they will get someone to "prepare" the body by removing the intestines, maybe replace it will salts and other preservatives, and stitch it back up after it is done…
That's a big part of what mummification is.
I gather your people don't actually want the corpse to last and last and last.
If arable land is at a premium they might want to make sure the fleshy parts of the body will turn to earth in two years or less -- maybe even one year or less.
They may have the custom of digging up the corpse after two years and just saving the bones in a monument, and re-using the grave for the next funeral.
The box they put the corpse in to have its flesh turned to earth would be called a "flesh-eater" or "sarco-phagus". The box they save the bones in would be called an "ossuary".
If they start running out of room to save the bones, they might sort them by type of bone rather than by who they're the bones of.
I only imagined that family members and friends would gather at the bedside watching as the person lays dying and that as soon as they did, the family members would begin painting as soon as the person died without hesitation, but what then if someone dies unexpectedly and you came to know about only three hours later or even three days later? It would need to be preserved...
If you're there when they die you'll notice right away that their sphincters have let loose. You'll want to wash them and their bedding and move them to some hard surface that you can sanitize afterward and won't ever use for any purpose where you really need it to be really sanitary. It's unlikely that just one person can do that without assistance.
Anyway, as soon as they're washed and dried, you could start painting them. That would make sense.

If you find them before there's any risk that trying to move them around will pull their flesh from their bones or their skin from their flesh or whatever -- before their flesh starts to soften -- then you'll probably want to wash them just as you would have if you'd been there at the time; and painting them might still be in order.

You might just poke a hole in their gastro-intestinal tract to let out the gaseous and liquid contents. Or you might want to go further; fill their stomachs and intestines with something that will keep everything from getting any stinkier and keep it from getting any bloatier. You might do that through their mouth and/or anus, or you might poke a hole in the front or back or side, or any combination of those ideas.

Face it -- a corpse is a very large waste-disposal problem for an average single-family household. Some industrial operations regularly handle bigger waste-disposal problems, but the average everyday one-family household doesn't.

The family may have a smokehouse where they preserve meat and/or other food by smoking it. They may decide to do that with the corpse.
I can see major problems with that idea.
First, you can be careful that the meat you smoke was healthy until you killed it, and that you killed it in a sanitary way. But you have no control over what killed the corpse; and it is even likelier to be something that could also kill you.
Second, the point of smoking meat (or other food) is that it won't rot; insects and microbes and so on won't "eat" it, so it will last at least more than a season (usually more than a year). But you've already said (or, at least, I thought you said) that your people don't want the corpse to last too long.

Anyway;
IMO it's an intriguing problem.

Think they might lacquer or shellac the corpse? Or varnish it? or something?
It's not that I don't want to preserve the corpse, it's that I don't want the corpse to look like a raisin; a wrinkly brown thing, who wants to paint on that?

I don't know what a shellac is, but maybe the lacquer may both preserve the corpse and also help make it easier to paint on as well...

I think we already established that cleaning the body first is a must... and if it adds anything to sanitation, they might use gloves, and maybe a cloth over their mouth...

Also, take into account that the Vrkhazhi are trigamous, meaning a woman may have up to three husbands or a man may have up to three wives...

The Vrkhazh family would likely have the man's parents, his three wives, their children... They would also have aid of the local guy-who-deal-with-dead-people. I dunno about you, but that is at least five able-bodies persons to carry a body, wash it and lacquer it...
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 10 Nov 2014 10:44

Ahzoh wrote: Also, take into account that the Vrkhazhi are trigamous, meaning a woman may have up to three husbands or a man may have up to three wives...
Just like Denobulans (for anyone who watched ST:ENT)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 10 Nov 2014 18:09

sangi39 wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Also, take into account that the Vrkhazhi are trigamous, meaning a woman may have up to three husbands or a man may have up to three wives...
Just like Denobulans (for anyone who watched ST:ENT)
And like my conculture Adpihi, who, I'm just starting to realize, practice "line-marriage".

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Nov 2014 19:07

There are still thinks that need discussion... Like how Vrkhazh will deal with the body...

Washing the body is establish, and the body will be lain on a special table specifically for that purpose.

Will lacquer preserve the body and maybe help the paint?
Not that I don't want the body preserved, but I just don't want the corpse to be like a raisin, that is not something pleasant to paint on.
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Post by Thrice Xandvii » 11 Nov 2014 04:37

It might be too late if the person died of old age... or do Vrkhazhi not wrinkle with age?

So, I can't seem to come up with a phonology I like for my newest 'lang project. Everything seems too boring about it. Of course I could add "weird" things like clicks and whatnot, but one stipulation I always make is that I need to be able to pronounce the language more or less correctly, as such I am somewhat limited as a native English speaker (however I have a familiarity with Mandarin, Spanish and German).

Here's what I have so far:
/m/
/b t d k g q ʔ/
/ɸ~f β~v s~ʃ z~ʒ ʁ x~h/
/tʃ dʒ/
/ɹ l~ɫ/

/i y u uː/
/ə/
/e ø o oː/
/a~ɑ aː~ɑː/

(Note that some of the allophony there is to facilitate me pronouncing it... though obviously not all of it. If it helps, I currently have room for up to 24 consonants in my alphabet since 9 spaces are taken by vowels (the long ones constitute their own letters, but not the unrounded front vowels).)
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Post by Ahzoh » 11 Nov 2014 04:41

XXXVII wrote:It might be too late if the person died of old age... or do Vrkhazhi not wrinkle with age?
Well it would be manageable wrinkyness, I'm talking about:
Image
as opposed to this:
Image
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Post by Keenir » 11 Nov 2014 07:38

Ahzoh wrote:Will lacquer preserve the body and maybe help the paint?
Not that I don't want the body preserved, but I just don't want the corpse to be like a raisin, that is not something pleasant to paint on.
I probably missed something, but...

What do the Vrkhazh do with the body after they paint it?


(do they care if it wrinkles and gets holes in it post-painting?)

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Post by Ahzoh » 11 Nov 2014 08:26

Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Will lacquer preserve the body and maybe help the paint?
Not that I don't want the body preserved, but I just don't want the corpse to be like a raisin, that is not something pleasant to paint on.
I probably missed something, but...

What do the Vrkhazh do with the body after they paint it?


(do they care if it wrinkles and gets holes in it post-painting?)
They probably bury it in the desert...
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Post by eldin raigmore » 11 Nov 2014 08:29

Ahzoh wrote:They probably bury it in the desert...
What about the ones who live in the tropical rain-something?
Or even the ones in the semi-arid region (which is probably a grassland, I'm thinking?)?

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Post by Ahzoh » 11 Nov 2014 13:06

eldin raigmore wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:They probably bury it in the desert...
What about the ones who live in the tropical rain-something?
Or even the ones in the semi-arid region (which is probably a grassland, I'm thinking?)?
They will all bury the bodies... Not all in the desert...
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Post by Keenir » 13 Nov 2014 04:16

Ahzoh wrote:
Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Will lacquer preserve the body and maybe help the paint?
Not that I don't want the body preserved, but I just don't want the corpse to be like a raisin, that is not something pleasant to paint on.
I probably missed something, but...

What do the Vrkhazh do with the body after they paint it?


(do they care if it wrinkles and gets holes in it post-painting?)
They probably bury it in the desert...
so...they don't really need to laquer it...if nobody else is going to know how well/poorly one's dead were painted...(you could say that Western funerary practice is to paint the bodies of the dead so they look like they're just sleeping). yes? no?

"need" may not be the right word, where the Vrkhazh are concerned, however.
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Post by Ahzoh » 13 Nov 2014 04:48

Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:
Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Will lacquer preserve the body and maybe help the paint?
Not that I don't want the body preserved, but I just don't want the corpse to be like a raisin, that is not something pleasant to paint on.
I probably missed something, but...

What do the Vrkhazh do with the body after they paint it?


(do they care if it wrinkles and gets holes in it post-painting?)
They probably bury it in the desert...
so...they don't really need to laquer it...if nobody else is going to know how well/poorly one's dead were painted...(you could say that Western funerary practice is to paint the bodies of the dead so they look like they're just sleeping). yes? no?

"need" may not be the right word, where the Vrkhazh are concerned, however.
Why wouldn't they lacquer it? The lacquering is to preserve the body so it doesnt get all rotten before the family members finish painting it...
The painting is not meant to show off to others how well you painted, but to express your love for that dearly departed, it is more of thing hetween the family and friends...
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

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