Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 31 Aug 2014 05:11

In old Germanic languages, neuter Words always seem to have "weaker" declensions than other genders, this also applies to some extent to feminine, Masculine seems to have less syncretism.

Is this mainly due to changes in Germanic or were there similar patterns already in PIE? is it just random or some leftover? is it connected to the development of the gender system in the first place?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 01 Sep 2014 20:05

The neuter declension already had more syncretism in PIE, look at these:

THEMATIC -o- NOUNS (MASCULINE)

example word: nisdós (nest)

Singular <> Dual <> Plural
Nom: nisdós <> nisdóh₁ <> nisdóes
Voc: nisdé <> nisdóh₁ <> nisdóes
Acc: nisdóm <> nisdóh₁ <> nisdóns
Gen: nisdósyo <> …......... <> nisdóh₁om
Dat: nisdóey <> …......... <> nisdóybʰos
Instr: nisdóh₁ <> ….......... <> nisdṓys
Abl: nisdéad <> …......... <> nisdóybʰos
Loc: nisdéy <> …......... <> nisdóysu

versus this:

THEMATIC -o- NOUNS (NEUTER)

example word: yugóm (yoke)

Singular <> Dual <> Plural
Nom: yugóm <> yugóyh₁ <> yugéh₂
Voc: yugóm <> yugóyh₁ <> yugéh₂
Acc: yugóm <> yugóyh₁ <> yugéh₂
Gen: yugósyo <> …......... <> yugóh₁om
Dat: yugóey <> …......... <> yugóybʰos
Instr: yugóh₁ <> ….......... <> yugṓys
Abl: yugéad <> …......... <> yugóybʰos
Loc: yugéy <> …......... <> yugóysu

Noinative, vocative and accusative neuters are always identical in PIE (and its immediate daughter languages).

For far more information on this and on the specific Germanic developments you could try this book:

http://books.google.it/books/about/From ... edir_esc=y
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 09 Sep 2014 04:07

Did certain prepositions govern certain verbs and cases already in PIE, or is that later?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 09 Sep 2014 23:19

It seems so (if a verb or an adjective had to be used with a particular case in one early-attested language, it was usually used the same way in the other early-attested languages), even though PIE had adverbs that doubled as postpositions, not prepositions.
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by tezcatlip0ca » 26 Oct 2014 04:14

Are you still there?

How are athematic nominals like h3rēgs and nokwts declined?

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 27 Oct 2014 05:21

I'm still "here", I just don't have time to make new lessons [:)]

The nouns you want to know about were declined more or less like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo ... s#Examples

nókʷts "night" is in the first column; we have an acrostatic root noun. Acrostatic is the Indo-Europenanist's way to say that the accent stays on the root throughout the declension. Ablaut grade is o in the direct cases and e in the oblique ones.

h₃rḗǵs "king, ruler" is declined like mḗh₁n̥s, which is featured in the second column. It's another acrostatic root noun, where the accent is always on the root. But this is a Narten noun: this sub-class features lengthened e-grade in the direct cases and normal e-grade on the obliques, as you can see.
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 21 Nov 2014 22:22

Whatever happened to all those final nasals? they seem to mostly be reflected as nasal vowels, in Latin, Proto-Germanic and Old church Slavonic, maybe the final -m and -n were just reflected as nasalization quite early on?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 24 Nov 2014 13:16

HinGambleGoth wrote:Whatever happened to all those final nasals? they seem to mostly be reflected as nasal vowels, in Latin, Proto-Germanic and Old church Slavonic, maybe the final -m and -n were just reflected as nasalization quite early on?
Well, if I remember right (and I may not [;)] ) the transformation of final nasals into nasal vowels in Latin is dated to around the classical period (first century BC), meaning that Latin had full nasals before that. There is direct inscriptional evidence for this dating: some people started to forget to write final "m" as soon as their spoken language lost it, so we can recover when this change happened. Nobody forgot to write them before, suggesting that the nasals were full consonants before.

Greek kept them intact even longer, and it seems to me (but look things up yourself, don't take my word for it) that nasalization of vowels was discussed as happening in relation to the Law of Open Syllables in Slavic, so OCS had probably lost the final nasals recently (opening syllables that were closed before).
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Chagen » 25 Nov 2014 16:52

IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 25 Nov 2014 20:30

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
One wonders why some languages easily drop nasals with nasalization only lasting a short time, while others keep it, why is it that French keeps nasalization that developed in the early middle ages, while for instance Germanic languages have more or less lost the Proto-Germanic nasalization completely, apart from maybe frisian? and dalecarlian.

Does the amount of minimal pairs really matter? French is loaded with homophones.

It is interesting to see that PIE, a language making me think of Czech or Arabic, filled with "impossible" [:S] consonant clusters, developed into stuff like Danish and French, that just sound like garbled vowels and approximants.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 25 Nov 2014 22:51

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
That's OK, but does good old Andy (Sihler) tell us when the change can be assumed to have happened? I seem to remember something like the first century BC, am I wrong by much?

And anyone pronouncing actual [m] after most dialects of Latin had undergone the change wasn't making a mistake, it was merely a conservative pronounciation!
HinGambleGoth wrote:It is interesting to see that PIE, a language making me think of Czech or Arabic, filled with "impossible" consonant clusters, developed into stuff like Danish and French, that just sound like garbled vowels and approximants.
That's interesting alright. But it's not surprising: nearly 6000 years is an enormously long time...
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » 26 Nov 2014 01:43

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 26 Nov 2014 13:16

Lambuzhao wrote:
Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
Not unpredictably, I bought that book myself years ago (you know, :con: Atlántika didn't build itself on its own [:)] ). It's definitely a good book, and in spite of the title it has plenty of info on Sanskrit too. And if one wants to get into Indo-European studies, I'm afraid that some knowledge of Sanskrit, even superficial (like mine [:$] ), is mandatory.

But the book you should have on IE (if you don't already) is Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction by Benjamin W. Fortson IV. Thorough, comprehensive, clear and well-written. I have the first edition, but a second edition (2009) is now available, restyled & expanded, and now with 30% less laryngeals. It's even relatively cheap, and worth buying (even though I was joking about the laryngeals [;)] ).
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 26 Nov 2014 18:57

I am getting more and more convinced that that PIE was a kind of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackSpeech

It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination, the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 27 Nov 2014 15:43

HinGambleGoth wrote:It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination
Well, after a few years it starts making sense, maybe, somewhat... [:)] And Ancient Greek and Sanskrit had even more complex systems !
HinGambleGoth wrote:the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
The kʷékʷlos klan :?: :!:
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Nov 2014 22:52

atman wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination
Well, after a few years it starts making sense, maybe, somewhat... [:)] And Ancient Greek and Sanskrit had even more complex systems !
HinGambleGoth wrote:the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
The kʷékʷlos klan :?: :!:
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by elemtilas » 17 Dec 2014 02:02

Lambuzhao wrote:
Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
Well, maybe if you've been very very good this year, perhaps Yeolfather will bring you a copy of Sihler! (Just don't forget to hang up a new sock, and never èver forget to leave the window open just a crack, lest Yeolfather break down your window just to get in!)

I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Prinsessa » 18 Dec 2014 16:12

elemtilas wrote:I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.
What myth is that?

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by elemtilas » 18 Dec 2014 17:38

Skógvur wrote:
elemtilas wrote:I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.
What myth is that?
Basically the one to one correspondence of English to Latin (or French or Spanish) forms. Mind you, it's not like I knew what the Latin forms were until I got into college, but the standard grid of tenses we learned in Latin (and French in HS) was already very familiar to me from grammar school English. Sihler put into words what I had already felt: that English is far more aspect oriented than Latin. Of course, Latin has aspect too, but everything fits very neatly into a three way grid of past - present - future tenses whereas English only can when contorted. We have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect. After that, you get into the wonderful world of phrasal verbs, adverbial verbs compound verbs and so forth.

I found it much more sensible to view the basic English verb -- sing / sang, walk / walked, write / wrote -- forms as habitual aspect / past tense rather than present tense / past tense, since in English, the "present" tense is handled by the progressive aspect, not the "simple present" as that is really a timeless form. "I eat beets" doesn't imply I have a big old bowl of beets in front me right now whereas "I am eating beets" does. "I write stories" doesn't mean I have pen in hand. I can honestly say "I walk" even though I'm presently sitting down.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Bristel » 02 Feb 2015 00:08

I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)

I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
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Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
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