Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 02 Feb 2015 02:58

elemtilas wrote:…. English …. have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect.
I disagree. English's "future tens" is more of a mood (or a collection of moods) than an aspect.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 03 Feb 2015 15:59

Bristel wrote:I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)
Thanks! [:)]
Bristel wrote:I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
I'm not making any promises, but if I have time...
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Prinsessa » 03 Feb 2015 21:59

eldin raigmore wrote:
elemtilas wrote:…. English …. have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect.
I disagree. English's "future tens" is more of a mood (or a collection of moods) than an aspect.
There's just been/is going on a big discussion about that in the conversation/spam thread, so let's not have it here as well. Do chime in in the other thread.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 04 Feb 2015 07:55

Prinsessa wrote:There's just been/is going on a big discussion about that in the conversation/spam thread, so let's not have it here as well. Do chime in in the other thread.
I just read that earlier today and decided to let it be.
If my posts should be lifted out of this thread and put on that other thread then some moderator will do it eventually.
I have nothing else to post about it here, or there.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Bristel » 05 Feb 2015 20:36

atman wrote:
Bristel wrote:I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)
Thanks! [:)]
Bristel wrote:I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
I'm not making any promises, but if I have time...
Could probably use a verb section too, but I can glean a lot of info from the Wiki too.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 22 May 2015 19:24

How do you ask questions in PIE?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 25 May 2015 19:01

HinGambleGoth wrote:How do you ask questions in PIE?
h1m̩m̩m̩... kʷód?

No, seriously: I don't know about special interrogative constructions reconstructed for PIE, but Latin and Sanskrit had optional interrogative clitics (ne...) that may be ancient. Does anyone have anything more to say?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Ephraim » 25 May 2015 23:41

For content questions (wh-questions), there are of course all the interrogative words beginning with *kʷ–.

But it's much harder to know what strategy PIE used to form yes–no-questions. Clackson gives four possible hypotheses (and notes that they are not mutually exclusive):
A) Sentence intonation and with no additional changes. This strategy is widely attested in IE languages and is found in Vedic and Hittite for example. Of course, we have no or very limited information about the intonation in the ancient languages.
B) An interrogative particle *nu found in Greek and Vedic. In Hittite, the same particle is widely used in non-interrogative sentences, however.
C) An interrogative particle *–ne perhaps originally the same as the negative particle *ne. Lehmann proposed this based on Latin and typological tendencies in OV-languages but Clackson does not find the arguments convincing.
D) Disjunctive questions of the type A-not-A, something like "verb *ne verb". Such constructions are primarily found in Sanskrit but the Latin questions with –ne could be explained through ellipsis of the first verb.

See Clackson, James (2007) "Indo-European Linguistics – An Introduction", p 159 ff.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 26 May 2015 11:54

Thank you! [:)]
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 29 May 2015 12:21

Talk like an Indo-Europeanist
Atman's entirely serious guide to IE technical vocabulary, phrases and jargon


INDO-EUROPEANISTS

kʷékʷlos klan: the Indo-European studies research community

American PIE: several eminent IEists are based in the United States

feeling lost like a laryngeal: a common situation for the beginner in IE studies

easy as PIE: on the other hand, experienced Ieists don't think the reconstructed language is that hard to work with

who ate all the PIEs?: some IE researchers happen to be overweight

RUKI: beginner student of Indo-European

wáy!: damn, another budget cut for our IE linguistics department!

a heck of a lot of wérǵom: putting together a new etymological dictionary of PIE is hard work

h3égʷʰim égwhent (he slayed the serpent): used when an Indo-Europeanist manages to finish a new book after working on it for years

h3nómn̩-ḱlutós (name-fame): things in IE studies carry the name of their discoverers forever (Narten ablaut, Caland system, Grassmann's law...)


RECONSTRUCTION ISSUES

fifty shades of h1rudhrós: it's not easy to reconstruct PIE color terms

love of the Kurgan people: sex, marriage and family in PIE times

it's a long way to Dnipropetrovsk: it took a lifetime to find the PIE homeland

PIE in the sky: fascinating but unproven hypotheses like Indo-Uralic, Nostratic, Eurasiatic, the Old European Hydronymy...

PIE in the face: some ideas are just laughable

no matter how you slice the PIE: on the contrary, other things are pretty uncontroversial

have your PIE and eat it too: beware of the dangers of overreconstruction

eat humble PIE: mistakes happen in IE studies

shepherd's PIE: why are Indo-Europeanists always talking about sheep in a plain?

have one's fingers in many PIEs: when one can't settle for a specific reconstruction

the éǵhs-files: in moments of desperation, some people think PIE is too complicated to be a mere Earth language; it must come from somewhere else

the dark side of the PIE: the history of IE studies is full of political arguments, racism, and features things like Nazi German intelligence agencies and Soviet researchers lost in the steppe never to be heard of again...

comparative method: white magic

internal reconstruction: black magic

applying the comparative method to forms obtained by internal reconstruction: don't try this at home, kids!

putting the wóǵʰom before the h1éḱwom (putting the cart before the horse): doing things backwards (thanks Lambu)


INDO-EUROPEAN SCHOLARLY ARTICLES

First of all, always remember that Indo-Europeanists love German words: ablaut, umlaut, auslaut, anlaut, Gruppenflexion, Stammbildung...

And Sanskrit ones: tudati presents, svarabhakti vowels, set and anit roots, tatpurusha and bahuvrihi compounds...

AND HOW TO COMMENT ON SAID ARTICLES

can't tell laryngeals from laryngitis: the author is incompetent

too much médhu: the author must've been drunk

h1m̩m̩m̩: at times it's hard to pick an etymology over another

kʷód?: you can't be serious, can you?

lewkóm!: brilliant!

ḱléwos n̩dhgwhitóm (eternal glory): congratulations!

h3gʷʰr̩r̩r̩r̩r̩: I suspect your methodology might not be quite sound

pace: dude, I don't think you got it right this time

contra: well, we'll agree to disagree, I suppose

unsupported: bullshit

idiosyncratic: bullshit

certainly premature: bullshit
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 29 May 2015 14:06

Whenever in doubt about the origin of an unexpected vowel in some old IE-language, just say "must be some other ablaut-grade" and move on.
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by loglorn » 29 May 2015 23:03

If PIE had postpositions and some descendants have prepositions, and these prepositions actually come from the PIE postpositions, how come those adpositions just changed place?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Znex » 30 May 2015 03:09

loglorn wrote:If PIE had postpositions and some descendants have prepositions, and these prepositions actually come from the PIE postpositions, how come those adpositions just changed place?
Because I don't think they were true postpositions anyway, I think they were supposed to be some sort of auxiliary verb as well or something.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 30 May 2015 14:43

Don't more adpositions descend etymologically from adverbs than from any other single part-of-speech? (Though, if I understand correctly, not from all other parts-of-speech taken together.)

And don't more case-endings descend etymologically from postpositions (or at least from adpositions) than from any other single etymological source? (Again, AIUI, not from all other sources taken together.)

A verbal auxiliary needn't be a verb nor even act like a verb.
An auxiliary-word is a verbal auxiliary if it tells at least one of: aspect, modality/mode/mood, polarity, tense, and/or voice; of the main verb, possibly along with other information.
Verbal auxiliary words which inflect, usually act syntactically as if they are verbs which have the main verb as their object.
Verbal auxiliary particles -- words which don't inflect -- have idiosyncratic syntactic behavior.

A modifier which can modify a verb or a verb-phrase or a clause or a sentence, is (one kind of) adverb.
(Any modifier which isn't an adjective is an adverb; if it modifies anything other than nouns and noun-phrases -- for instance, verbs or adjectives or other adverbs -- it's an adverb. But right now I'm only interested in ad-verbal adverbs, not ad-adjectival adverbs etc.)
There tends to be semantic and grammatical overlap between ad-verbal adverbs and verbal auxiliary-words.

Could some of these "postpositions" have been better-classified, or at least also-classified, as adverbs or as verbal auxiliary-words?

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Ephraim » 30 May 2015 15:52

I think it's often said that PIE "adpositions" were more like adverbs. Beekes writes:
"PIE did not have preverbs or pre- or postpositions, only adverbs (which became pre-verbs, etc., in the individual languages)." (Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, 2nd ed. p. 173)

It's never been quite clear to me exactly what this means. I'm not sure what the difference would be between a postposition and an adverb that is placed after a noun to describe it. But perhaps they were different in some sense:
1. They could be positioned away from the noun.
2. They didn't govern any particular case. The choice of case was more semantically conditioned (as I believe it is in Vedic still).

In any case, there's nothing strange about postpositions becoming prepositions. This happened in Germanic for example. Early Germanic had mostly postpositions (and I think they were true postpostions) but later languages obviously have mostly prepositions. Both positions were possible for a long time. These changes happened together with many other changes in word order.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » 31 May 2015 17:00

loglorn wrote:If PIE had postpositions and some descendants have prepositions, and these prepositions actually come from the PIE postpositions, how come those adpositions just changed place?

On a smaller diachronic scale, just take a look at the Italic languages. Oscan and Umbrian used postpositions (presumably from PIE), while (Old Latin) used some post-positions as well, while virtually non survived into Classical Latin, save -cum (e.g. mecum, tecum, nobiscum). Though not technically prepositions, the conjunctions
-que and -ve might form a sixter taxon.

On a somewhat similar note, the freaky-deaky ADJ + PRP + NOUN that exists in Latin might also be some kind of weird vermiform-appendix/coccyx holdover from PIE (e.g. quam ob rem, magna cum laude, etc.).

which see-
http://www.academia.edu/2134498/The_wor ... _Sabellian


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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 17 Aug 2015 05:35

Lambuzhao wrote:Talk like and Indo-Europeanist

¡Justo y necesario!
Thank you! But I'm not done yet...

Talk like an Indo-Europeanist - Addendum

The Indo-European Big Three: Latin, Greek and Sanskrit. Learn 'em, you've got no choice.

The Indo-European Significant Seven: Hittite, Tocharian B, Avestan, Gothic, Classical Armenian, Old Irish, Old Church Slavonic. Studying one or two of these doesn't hurt either.

feeling productive like a r/n heteroclite: when you can't get anything done

feeling productive like a thematic stem: when you're really on fire

PIE for breakfast: the best reconstruction ideas come in the morning

passim: read the whole paper, lazy ass!

Festschrift: birthday PIE for noted Indo-Europeanists

steppe by steppe: Indo-European studies should be approached gradually

a larger share of the PIE: Indo-European studies would deserve more attention and respect these days

freshly-baked PIE: recent theories likely to have a bright future (the h2e-conjugation, the a/o ablaut series...)

late PIE: what... do you mean my revolutionary new theory on Indo-European was already proposed, discussed and debunked in Freiburg in 1973?

nuclear PIE: some pseudo-researchers would deserve total annihilation

the other side of the PIE: it is strongly forbidden to perform séances in order to learn more about the phonological and morphosyntactical details of Proto-Indo-European
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Ahzoh » 17 Aug 2015 06:21

kʷékʷlos klan...
I see what they did there...
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by qwed117 » 01 Sep 2015 05:58

sangi39 wrote: The front velar vs. back velar approach has been suggested as a possible solution which might also more easily explain the merger of traditional * and *k into *k with some members of this board and the ZBB suggesting that /c/ > /k/ is somewhat unlikely, although others have used Hawai'ian's /t/ > /k/ as a possible counter-example.
But Hawai'ian's t->k is a manifestation of a larger chain shift more precisely (In X-Sampa) /t/>/k/>/?/>...Image
Still, it wouldn't explain a decent amount of info, like why doesn't k>? If we were to compare it to Hawai'ian. PIE is crazier than all of us, it seems
Edit: This is 4/8/16... I have no idea what this post is. Maybe I'm saying if /c/ moved back to /k/ then /k/ would've triggered the loss of the laryngeals. 2sketchy4me/
Last edited by qwed117 on 09 Apr 2016 05:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » 09 Apr 2016 03:53

*[óynos kʷékʷlos dʰreǵeti sm̥peh₂ntn̥s ⁞ h₁régʷesu-kʷe ‎ bʰendʰeti]
Spoiler:
I kno. I took the low road here. 'draw' and 'bind'. But, to redeem myself, I used a steampunked ἁπάντᾰς = all.ACC.PL, and then used the grandmom of Erebus/røkkr/riqis/‎rajas, plus the clitic 'and'. The reconstruction *h₁régʷesu was the genesis of this lil couplet. As for ring, I wanted to retrofit Gothic figgragulþ, but alas, which to use: 'fiver' or 'pointer' ‽‽‽ I enjoy how the word for "all (of them)" hangs in the middle of this conundrum; one could add the 3PL pronouns, but I like their absence. languages are so damn fun. [:S]

Has someone already translated the One Ring poem into PIE somewheres
:?:

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