Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 25 Nov 2014 20:30

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
One wonders why some languages easily drop nasals with nasalization only lasting a short time, while others keep it, why is it that French keeps nasalization that developed in the early middle ages, while for instance Germanic languages have more or less lost the Proto-Germanic nasalization completely, apart from maybe frisian? and dalecarlian.

Does the amount of minimal pairs really matter? French is loaded with homophones.

It is interesting to see that PIE, a language making me think of Czech or Arabic, filled with "impossible" [:S] consonant clusters, developed into stuff like Danish and French, that just sound like garbled vowels and approximants.
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 25 Nov 2014 22:51

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
That's OK, but does good old Andy (Sihler) tell us when the change can be assumed to have happened? I seem to remember something like the first century BC, am I wrong by much?

And anyone pronouncing actual [m] after most dialects of Latin had undergone the change wasn't making a mistake, it was merely a conservative pronounciation!
HinGambleGoth wrote:It is interesting to see that PIE, a language making me think of Czech or Arabic, filled with "impossible" consonant clusters, developed into stuff like Danish and French, that just sound like garbled vowels and approximants.
That's interesting alright. But it's not surprising: nearly 6000 years is an enormously long time...
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » 26 Nov 2014 01:43

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 26 Nov 2014 13:16

Lambuzhao wrote:
Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
Not unpredictably, I bought that book myself years ago (you know, :con: Atlántika didn't build itself on its own [:)] ). It's definitely a good book, and in spite of the title it has plenty of info on Sanskrit too. And if one wants to get into Indo-European studies, I'm afraid that some knowledge of Sanskrit, even superficial (like mine [:$] ), is mandatory.

But the book you should have on IE (if you don't already) is Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction by Benjamin W. Fortson IV. Thorough, comprehensive, clear and well-written. I have the first edition, but a second edition (2009) is now available, restyled & expanded, and now with 30% less laryngeals. It's even relatively cheap, and worth buying (even though I was joking about the laryngeals [;)] ).
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 26 Nov 2014 18:57

I am getting more and more convinced that that PIE was a kind of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackSpeech

It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination, the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
[B)] Image Image :deu:

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 27 Nov 2014 15:43

HinGambleGoth wrote:It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination
Well, after a few years it starts making sense, maybe, somewhat... [:)] And Ancient Greek and Sanskrit had even more complex systems !
HinGambleGoth wrote:the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
The kʷékʷlos klan :?: :!:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Nov 2014 22:52

atman wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination
Well, after a few years it starts making sense, maybe, somewhat... [:)] And Ancient Greek and Sanskrit had even more complex systems !
HinGambleGoth wrote:the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
The kʷékʷlos klan :?: :!:
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by elemtilas » 17 Dec 2014 02:02

Lambuzhao wrote:
Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
Well, maybe if you've been very very good this year, perhaps Yeolfather will bring you a copy of Sihler! (Just don't forget to hang up a new sock, and never èver forget to leave the window open just a crack, lest Yeolfather break down your window just to get in!)

I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Prinsessa » 18 Dec 2014 16:12

elemtilas wrote:I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.
What myth is that?

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by elemtilas » 18 Dec 2014 17:38

Skógvur wrote:
elemtilas wrote:I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.
What myth is that?
Basically the one to one correspondence of English to Latin (or French or Spanish) forms. Mind you, it's not like I knew what the Latin forms were until I got into college, but the standard grid of tenses we learned in Latin (and French in HS) was already very familiar to me from grammar school English. Sihler put into words what I had already felt: that English is far more aspect oriented than Latin. Of course, Latin has aspect too, but everything fits very neatly into a three way grid of past - present - future tenses whereas English only can when contorted. We have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect. After that, you get into the wonderful world of phrasal verbs, adverbial verbs compound verbs and so forth.

I found it much more sensible to view the basic English verb -- sing / sang, walk / walked, write / wrote -- forms as habitual aspect / past tense rather than present tense / past tense, since in English, the "present" tense is handled by the progressive aspect, not the "simple present" as that is really a timeless form. "I eat beets" doesn't imply I have a big old bowl of beets in front me right now whereas "I am eating beets" does. "I write stories" doesn't mean I have pen in hand. I can honestly say "I walk" even though I'm presently sitting down.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Bristel » 02 Feb 2015 00:08

I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)

I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 02 Feb 2015 02:58

elemtilas wrote:…. English …. have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect.
I disagree. English's "future tens" is more of a mood (or a collection of moods) than an aspect.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 03 Feb 2015 15:59

Bristel wrote:I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)
Thanks! [:)]
Bristel wrote:I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
I'm not making any promises, but if I have time...
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Prinsessa » 03 Feb 2015 21:59

eldin raigmore wrote:
elemtilas wrote:…. English …. have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect.
I disagree. English's "future tens" is more of a mood (or a collection of moods) than an aspect.
There's just been/is going on a big discussion about that in the conversation/spam thread, so let's not have it here as well. Do chime in in the other thread.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » 04 Feb 2015 07:55

Prinsessa wrote:There's just been/is going on a big discussion about that in the conversation/spam thread, so let's not have it here as well. Do chime in in the other thread.
I just read that earlier today and decided to let it be.
If my posts should be lifted out of this thread and put on that other thread then some moderator will do it eventually.
I have nothing else to post about it here, or there.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Bristel » 05 Feb 2015 20:36

atman wrote:
Bristel wrote:I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)
Thanks! [:)]
Bristel wrote:I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
I'm not making any promises, but if I have time...
Could probably use a verb section too, but I can glean a lot of info from the Wiki too.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » 22 May 2015 18:24

How do you ask questions in PIE?
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
[B)] Image Image :deu:

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 25 May 2015 18:01

HinGambleGoth wrote:How do you ask questions in PIE?
h1m̩m̩m̩... kʷód?

No, seriously: I don't know about special interrogative constructions reconstructed for PIE, but Latin and Sanskrit had optional interrogative clitics (ne...) that may be ancient. Does anyone have anything more to say?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Ephraim » 25 May 2015 22:41

For content questions (wh-questions), there are of course all the interrogative words beginning with *kʷ–.

But it's much harder to know what strategy PIE used to form yes–no-questions. Clackson gives four possible hypotheses (and notes that they are not mutually exclusive):
A) Sentence intonation and with no additional changes. This strategy is widely attested in IE languages and is found in Vedic and Hittite for example. Of course, we have no or very limited information about the intonation in the ancient languages.
B) An interrogative particle *nu found in Greek and Vedic. In Hittite, the same particle is widely used in non-interrogative sentences, however.
C) An interrogative particle *–ne perhaps originally the same as the negative particle *ne. Lehmann proposed this based on Latin and typological tendencies in OV-languages but Clackson does not find the arguments convincing.
D) Disjunctive questions of the type A-not-A, something like "verb *ne verb". Such constructions are primarily found in Sanskrit but the Latin questions with –ne could be explained through ellipsis of the first verb.

See Clackson, James (2007) "Indo-European Linguistics – An Introduction", p 159 ff.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » 26 May 2015 10:54

Thank you! [:)]
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