Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

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Alessio
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Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 01 Mar 2014 19:33

Welcome everybody. I've been asking myself for quite a long time whether it was worth it to start this thread or not; in the end, I decided to try. As we say in Italy, tentar(e) non nuoce (trying doesn't hurt)!
The language this thread is about is Emilian-Romagnolo, one of the so-called Italian "dialects". First, let's define what a "so called Italian dialect" is. As I've already stated in my Italian lessons thread, we Italians are convinced that regional languages are dialects of Italian. This is clearly false, because in most cases about 30% of the lexicon, most of the phonology and much grammar have no relationship with the Italian language whatsoever. This is the case of Emilian (as I'll call it for short), a Gallo-Italic language spoken mainly in Emilia-Romagna, my home region in Italy. Like most "dialects" (I'll use this term to mean what I explained above) of Italian, it has become some kind of symbol of our region, and we are proud to speak it to show belonging to our homeland. Not only this language is widely spoken in Emilia-Romagna, but it's also the main language of the vast majority of elderly Emilian people, who often can't speak correct Italian. This is common to the whole Italy; bear in mind that my country has 153 years, not one more. Before, different states, which spoke different languages, constituted the Italic peninsula. Since poverty was the standard until the second postwar period, most people could not afford to go to school and learn Italian; that's why "dialects" are still spoken a lot.
This is one of the factors that make me feel allowed to post lessons about a regional language, one that does not have a written tradition; I think that "dialects" should be preserved, as they can teach us a bit of our history, and therefore it would be fantastic if everybody in Emilia-Romagna could speak it.
Well then... let's begin.

Note
First note: I come from Modena, which is not the capital of Emilia-Romagna. So my (properly said) dialect of Emilian might not be standard. Whenever I can, I'll try to use the Bolognese dialect (Bologna is our capital); however I can not refrain from noting the differences.
Second note: as I said, this language doesn't have a written tradition. I invented the writing system I'll use in these lessons myself. Other systems have been proposed throughout contemporary history; mine derives from them.

Lesson 1 - Phonology and Writing System
The Emilian phonology is similar to the Italian one, but there are differences.

Consonants
Nasals: /m n ɲ/ <m n gn>
Plosives: /p b t̪ d̪ k g/ <p b t d c(h) g(h)>
Fricatives: /f v s̠ z̠ s̪ z̪ / <f v s ṡ z ż> (watch out! The pairs don't match - a Z-based sound is represented with an S-based symbol and vice-versa; this comes from Italian, where /z/ is <s> between vowels)
Liquids: /l r/ <l r>
Approximants: /j/ <j>
Affricates: /ts̠ dz̠/ <c(i)/c' g(i)/g'> (many describe these as /tʂ dʐ/, but to me /ts̠ dz̠/ is more accurate. Anyways younger people, who have a greater Italian influence, realize these as [tʃ dʒ] rather than [ts dz], so these sounds must be considered related to the first couple)
Additionally, <qu> represents /kw/.

C and G follow the Italian soft/hard rule: before a front vowel <e i> they are soft /ts̠ dz̠/, before any other vowel or a consonant they are hard /k g/. They are also soft before any vowel preceded by <i>, so that <cia gio> are soft; in this case, the <i> isn't pronounced, as it's only there to mark the softness of the consonant it follows. Conversely, they can be made hard by attaching an H; thus <che ghi> are hard. Just like in Italian, <h> is used only to mark for hardness, and it's never pronounced.
There is one last way to represent /ts̠ dz̠/, which is <c' g'>. This is used at the end of a word. In Italian there is no word ending in a soft C or G, but in Emilian this happens quite often, so we need a way to represent it.
Note that, unlike Italian, Emilian doesn't have geminate consonants. This means that writing a consonant twice is used to stress out - although this is quite superfluous - that the preceding vowel is short.

Vowels
Emilian vowels are a pain in the b*tt. Or better, it was one for me to define them and invent a proper way to represent them.
The basic set is a classic /a e i o u/; however, vowels vary according to length, stress and, for E and O, openness. Since unstressed vowels are always short, this means that a vowel can have at least three pronounciations, marked with three different diacritical marks in my writing system (but generally unmarked in the others; this is why I consider them "based" on a same vowel): unstressed, stressed short and stressed long. E and O can also be either open or closed, but I will mark this too.
So far, this is my representation of vowels.

Unstressed: /ɐ e ɪ o ʊ/ <a e i o u>
Stressed short: /a ε~æ e i ɔ~ɒ o u ɒ/ <à è é ì ò ó ù å> (/æ ɒ/ are used in Bologna for <è ò> in some particular cases; in Modena we always use /ε ɔ/ regardless. Sometimes the Bolognese's pronounce /ɒ/ and the Modenese's pronounce /a/; in these "dubious cases", <å> is used, so that one can infer both pronunciations)
Stressed long: /aː εː eː iː ɔː oː uː/ <â ê ě î ô ǒ û>

There are also two diphthongs: <ei> /æi̯/ and <ou> /ɒʊ̯/.
Vowels can be nasal; they are when they precede an <n> which is in coda. For example, the A in <an> (year) is nasal, but the one in <maněra> (manner) is not. Nasal vowels are always long, so I don't mark them with the circumflex as I would normally (except with E and O, to show the degree of openness). Diphthongs can be nasal as well, and in this case both vowels are nasalized.
Last note: although that's redundant, it would be a good idea to double the consonant after a short stressed vowel if what follows it is another vowel (as in <màtter>, to put). This because you can put a thousand accents on a short vowel, but an Italian would still pronounce a long vowel in such a position.


OK, let me provide you with a sample sentence.
A-v salût, ragazǒl! Mè a-m ciâm Alêsjo e a-j-âbit atěṡ a Môdna.
/av sɐ'luːt rɐgɐ's̪oːl mε am ts̠aːm ɐ'lεːsjo e ɐ'jaːbɪt ɐteːz a mɔːdnɐ/
1SG.AT 2PL.ACC.AT greet.1SG guy(s) 1SG.TON 1SG.AT 1SG.REFL call.1SG Alessio and 1SG.AT-(linking J)-live.1SG near to Modena
Hello (lit. I greet you; you don't hear actual greetings such as "good day" a lot in Emilian. I'd say I never heard any. Generally we just go "oooh, name!"), guys! My name is (lit. I call myself) Alessio and I live near Modena.


Thank you for reading through this post. If you like this language, or you want to see some more of it for any reason, these lessons will continue. I appreciate any feedback!
Last edited by Alessio on 11 Mar 2014 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

Alessio
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 03 Mar 2014 21:29

No reply but 40 people saw the thread, so I thought I might continue regardless.

Lesson 2 - Noun Basics

Determining the gender of a noun
Nouns in Emilian are marked by gender and number. There are two genders - masculine and feminine - and two numbers - singular and plural. Usually it's not very hard to establish the gender of a noun; here are a few examples.

Masculine nouns:
Åmm - man
Quêder - picture
Månd - world
Lêt - bed

Feminine nouns:
Cà - house
Têvla - table
Veritê - truth
Televiṡjoun - television
Atanzjoun - attention

In general, we can define four rules:
1) Nouns ending in a consonant are usually masculine.
2) Nouns ending in -a, -à (mostly monosyllables) or -ê (but watch out! -ê is also the ending of the masculine past participle!) are usually feminine.
3) Nouns in -ṡjoun and -zjoun (these two endings are always stressed) are always feminine.
4) Most other names are masculine.
Rule 1 (besides obviously rule 4) has the most exceptions; for example man (hand) is feminine.

Plural forms
To form the plural of a feminine noun in -a, change this ending to -i.
Têvla → têvli (table)
Dånna → dånni (woman)

To form the plural of a feminine noun in -ṡjoun or -zjoun, just add -i.
Televiṡjoun → televiṡjouni (television; <ou> remains stressed)
Atanzjoun → atanzjouni (attention; <ou> remains stressed here as well)

Generally, the plural form of a feminine noun in -à or -ê and that of a masculine noun is identical to the singular form. This comes most surely from a French influence (with plural -s not changing at all the pronunciation of any word).
Cà → cà
Veritê → veritê
Lêt → lêt
Åmm (man) has an irregular plural, åmmen.

Articles
Emilian has two sets of articles (artéccol), just like English: definite (determinatîv) and indefinite (indeterminatîv).

Definite Articles
There are two definite articles for masculine singular nouns, that are al and l'. Al is used before a consonant, whereas l' appears before vowels (and, to tell the truth, it can be considered as an alternative form of al, rather than an article on its own).
Al can - the dog
L'amîg - the friend
Note that what counts is the word immediately after the article, and not the noun itself. Thus, you say l'amîg but also al mê amîg.
The plural form of both articles would be i, but since before vowels it's pronounced like a J, I like using j' in those cases. As always, this comes from my personal choice, as there is no official spelling for Emilian.
I can - the dogs
I amîg/J'amîg - the friends
The definite article for feminine singular nouns is la; it's elided to l' before vowels.
La scrâna - the chair
L'âlba - the sunrise
The plural of la forms is al (don't confuse it with the masculine singular article!), whereas the plural of l' is aj'. Younger speakers often realize the latter as [aʎ], borrowing the sound [ʎ] from Italian. I am among those. (note that this change occurs also with the digraph ji, as in mâji, meaning t-shirts.)
Al scrâni - the chairs
Aj'âlbi - the sunrises
To summarize:

Code: Select all

      SG  PL
MAS C al  i
MAS V l'  i/j'
FEM C la  al
FEM V l'  aj'
Indefinite articles
The indefinite article for masculine nouns is un, regardless of the first letter of the noun.
Un gât - a cat
Un ôc' - an eye
The indefinite article for feminine nouns is na, which elides to n' before vowels.
Na běstja - an animal
N'ajǒla - a flowerbed
I've seen people writing 'na (with an apostrophe) many times. This comes from the common belief that na is the shortened form of ónna (feminine version of number one, ón), or worse, of una (inexistent word, wrongly borrowed from Italian). However, this doesn't consider that Emilian, unlike Italian, does distinguish between number one and the indefinite articles. Ón gât is different from un gât, and ónna běstja is different from na běstja; an English speaker can understand this quite easily, comparing one cat to a cat. However, an Italian speaker has difficulties in doing so, especially if they don't know other languages. Considering that old people - the only "real" mothertongue speakers, which know the difference therefore - never write Emilian, this spelling is incredibly common, and I consider it incorrect.

I will now try, just like with my Italian lessons, to post some exercises for who wants to learn some Emilian. Try to define the gender of these nouns, make them plural, and associate the right definite article to both forms and the indefinite article to the singular form.
Âlma (soul) - Parǒl (bucket) - Arlǒj (clock) - Zitê (city) - Patâja (shirt) - Pjǒld (plow)
Notice the Italian translation: anima, secchio, orologio, città, camicia, aratro. And there are still people arguing that Emilian is a "variety of Italian"...
Last edited by Alessio on 11 Mar 2014 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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kanejam
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by kanejam » 09 Mar 2014 22:43

I'm sad I didn't see this thread earlier, it's awesome! Please continue and I will definitely be following.

It's an interesting orthography. I see the need for all the vowel diacritics! How does your orthography differ from that used in the Emilian wikipedia? As far as I can tell they use ē ō where you use the caron. So <å> is just pronounced differently depending on dialect (in the proper sense) and you pronounce it as <ò>? What's the main difference between <s> and <z> and the nearest equivalent for an English speaker?

The only things I'm not sold on are the use of the overdot for the voiced versions of <s> and <z> and the use of <j> for /j/. The last one is pretty non-standard for a romance language. Is there a reason why <i> wouldn't work?
The indefinite article for masculine nouns is na, which elides to n' before vowels.
Small typo there.
Spoiler:
- Âlma (soul), l'âlma, aj'âlmi, n'âlma
- Parǒl (bucket), al parōl, i parōl, un parōl
- Arlǒj (clock), al arlōj, j'arlōj, un arlōj
- Zitê (city), la zitê, al zitê, na zitê
- Patâja (shirt), la patâja, al patâji, na patâja
- Pjǒld (plow), al pjōld, i pjōld, un pjōld

Alessio
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 11 Mar 2014 16:03

It looks like Kanejam will be the only active follower for this thread as well! Haha
OK, let's clarify some things.
First. Last time I checked, the Emilian wikipedia used <ê ô> for both /εː ɔː/ and /eː oː/, thus I thought that, if one wanted to distinguish between the two, using a similar symbol, and thus just turning the circumflex upside-down to get a caron, was the best way to do it. I didn't know they used a macron now. Anyways I honestly don't like macrons, and that's pretty much all I have to say about that. As far as the spelling is understandable, one can use both systems.
Å is /a/ in my dialect (yeeey! I can use "dialect" in its proper sense for once!). Just to clarify this, Emilia-Romagna is a region, made up of 9 provinces bearing the name of their capital. From west to east and from north to south, these are Piacenza, Parma, Reggio nell'Emilia, Modena, Ferrara, Bologna, Ravenna, Forlì-Cesena and Rimini. I don't know about the others, but I'm sure that in Reggio, Modena and Ferrara <å> is /a/ or at worst /ɐ/. I know about the Bolognese realization because my town is right next to the boundary with the province of Bologna, but I've heard other dialects seldom.
As for <j>, that's a choice I made because I like to use unambiguous writing systems; this is reflected in many of my conlangs. Also, I thought it was the right choice since most of the times, as I wrote, <j> is realized as [ʎ] by younger people (including myself), at least between vowels. Again - this is my writing system. Anybody can use their as long as it's understandable.
As for <s ṡ> and <z ż>: unlike Italian, Emilian does contrast /s/ with /z/ (although not word-initially) and /s̪/ with /z̪/ (which in Italian would be /ts/ and /dz/, and apart from a couple of minimal pairs, they aren't that much contrasting). Compare <zěl> (sky) with <żěl> (frost), for example. Since Italian vocabularies use a dot above <s> to show when it's voiced (and so between vowels and before voiced consonants; that's kind of useless in Italian IMHO, since there is a precise rule), I decided to adopt the same spelling in Emilian.

OK, so. I corrected the typo (which was actually a big one!). You got only one error: l'arlǒj and not *al arlǒj. And here comes our next lesson.

Lesson 3 - Adjectives
Just like in Italian, in Emilian adjectives are usually put after the noun they modify and must agree with it in both gender and number.

Gîg', par pjaṡěr, pôrtem al quaděren råss! - Louis, please, bring me the red notebook!
Ě-t vést i mě ucě cîn? - Have you seen my small eyeglasses?
Cla dånna ělta lè l'an um pjěṡ gnanc un pǒg. - I don't like that tall woman there at all.

As for nouns, the masculine singular and plural are generally the same; to form the singular, add -a (most adjectives end in a consonant; those ending in a vowel would change it in -a, but I can't think of any, honestly), whereas the feminine plural is formed with -i.
Ělt (tall, high) → ělt (mp) → ělta (fs) → ělti (fp)
Notice that, if the adjective ends in c' or g', you need to replace the ' with an <i> before you add the feminine -a; then, to form the plural, the -a is simply removed (and the <i> is pronounced). Conversely, be sure to add -h- between a (hard) c/g and -i (Wikipedia puts H's at the end of these words, but I think they are useless).
Vêc' (old) → vêcia (fs) → vêci (fp)
Strécc (narrow) → strécca (fs) → strécchi (fp)
Adjectives ending in an unstressed sillable often lose their last vowel when conjugated in a feminine form.
Ómmid (damp) → ómda (here the second M is no more necessary, as well) → ómdi
Fěrum (motionless) → fěrma → fěrmi
Finally, past participles in -ê and -î behaving as adjectives add -da and -di as feminine endings instead. We will see these better later.
Żlê (frozen) → żlêda → żlêdi
Pulî (clean) → pulîda → pulîdi

Sometimes, you can put adjectives before nouns; this will change their meaning, again just like in Italian.
Un vêc' amî (an old friend) → un amî vêc' (a friend who is physically old)
Generally, it's a good idea to stick with the "noun-adjective" form, unless you know what you are doing.

The only irregular adjective I can think of is bêl (beautiful), which becomes bě /beː/ in the masculine plural form. The Bolognese pronounce it /biː/, actually. Dammit. I need another diacritic.

OK, this is all for today. Exercise: decline these adjectives in the four possible ways.
Cêr (clear) - grând (big) - brótt (ugly) - żǒven (young; tip: the last syllable, as you can see, is unstressed...) - cîn (small) - fûreb (smart, same tip as for "żǒven") - indurmintê (asleep; hm, looks like we have a past participle here...)
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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kanejam
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by kanejam » 11 Mar 2014 22:10

It is sad that there is little interest in these lessons; I think they are awesome!

I can see the sense of all your orthographic choices as coming from Italian conventions (which is reasonable for an Italian 'dialect'). I'm still not sure about <j> but it definitely works; do you mind if I try using <i>? Also I might use macrons instead of carons simply because they are easier to type, but I agree the macrons don't look that good.

I still don't know what the phonological difference between <s> and <z> is.
Spoiler:
- cêr (clear); cêr, cêra, cêri
- grând (big); grând, grânda, grândi
- brótt (ugly); brótt, brótta, brótti
- żǒven (young); żǒven, żǒvna, żǒvni
- cîn (small); cîn, cîna, cîni
- fûreb (smart); fûreb, fûrba, fûrbi
- indurmintê (asleep); indurmintê, indurmintêda, indurmintêdi
Last edited by kanejam on 11 Mar 2014 22:36, edited 1 time in total.

Alessio
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 11 Mar 2014 22:30

Oh, now that I read it again, I realize that I had misinterpreted your question.
<s> = /s/ (voiceless alveolar sibilant fricative)
<z> /s̪ / (voiceless dental sibilant fricative; [s̪ ] is also the Emilian realization of the Italian phoneme /ts/)
Is it clearer now?
Yeah, you can use <i>, no prob. I noticed I actually happen to use it myself from time to time. As for macrons, that's fine, but for any other typing problem, you should try my keyboard layout... I made it myself appositedly, I have more than 20 diacritics on it, coded as deadkeys (basically you press a combination and nothing happens, then you press a letter and it gets the diacritic established by that combination). I'll upload it tomorrow - it's 10:20pm now here - and post about it, in case anybody wants to try it ;)
In these five mins I've got before mum starts yelling at me to go to bed, let me just explain the title of the thread.
Tgnàmm bôta (curious /tɲ/ cluster, eh? It's realized as a nasal plosive + [ɲ], actually, and it's fairly common in Emilian), often translated into Italian as teniamo botta, means "we hold on, we resist". It's a typical Emilian saying, and the Italian version has been used as a slogan for the charity activities which supported people affected by the earthquake that hit the north of the Province of Modena in 2012. Another initiative, called Teniamo Botta 2, is still ongoing, because at the beginning of this year we had a flood, started from a leak in the right embankment of River Secchia 5-6 kms north of Modena, that hit the exact same zone that had been affected by the earthquake. I thought it was the best name for an Emilian thread, as our "dialect" has been widely used in these initiatives. We Emilians are proud of our homeland (just to mention, the Bassa, which is the part of our territory affected by earthquake and flood, is about 1/200 of Italy, yet it produces 2% of the national GDP - 1/50) and there is no better way to show this than speaking Emilian. Alǒra tgnàmm pûr bôta, chè sa aspitàmm l'ajût dal Stêt chè a gh'in vîn na gâmba... !
(translation: so let's hold on, because if we wait for the State's help things will get worse and worse (before we get it)... !)
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by DesEsseintes » 12 Mar 2014 08:34

Awesome thread, Alessio! Kanejam is not alone. [:)]

I speak Italian and so find this very interesting! It's certainly a completely different language.

I was happy to see an explanation for the name of the thread which had me stumped, although I did guess the tgnámm was teniamo. Is tenere used much in Emilian? I remember hearing it a lot in South Italy, which came as a surprise as it's rarely used in Milan, where I used to live.

Also, will you be posting more on phonetic constraints and other morphophonetic phenomena?

What is the Italian and/or Latin cognate of cîn?

Anyways, looking forward to more. [:D]

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 12 Mar 2014 14:52

Hello, DesEsseintes, welcome to this thread!
Well, "tenere" is never ever ever used for "avere" in northern Italy (in the south they do this because of a strong Spanish influence), but only for "mantenere" - which is, to keep. In Emilian you use "avěr", quite predictably.
Cîn... well, I don't really know where it comes from. I can tell it's a conctraction of cichin, the diminutive of cécc (as we'll study in these lesson, Emilian shows ablaut in a lot of declensions; this is just one example). But really, I have no idea where cécc comes from (in Italian you say "piccolo"), whereas I do know the origin of other words: pjǒld (it. aratro), for example, has a Germanic origin and is cognate with English plough (which is its meaning), strabuchêr (it. inciampare) comes from French trébucher, to stumble; stóss (it. rumore, urto) is cognate with German stoßen (to push), although the meaning is different (it means "noise" or sometimes "collision").
Now... I could post something about phonetic constraints, but I have to work a bit to find them out myself before. As for the morphophonetic phenomena, we will see something about it as we study other topics.
Before I introduce a new lesson, I want to share with you something I found out today.
Letter <m> can be optionally syllabic at the end of a word after a consonant. I've thought a lot about the word I wrote yesterday, fěrum, and I realized that I actually don't pronounce a /ʊ/ there... I pronounce nothing, in facts. My Italian ear isn't used to it, and I never studied Emilian grammar at school of course, so I thought it was so; but I realized I actually say ['feːrm̩ ], with a syllabic /m/. Also, I noticed that, if I talk quickly, I realize the whole word as just one syllable, having its core in the /eː/. Thus I think this is an optional rule. Other words showing this phenomena are the same that show it in English, like "communism" which becomes comunîṡm in Emilian. This is very curious, and adds a linking between the Emilian language and the Germanic branch. Anyways, for these words, no vowel should be inserted before the <m>, so <fěrum> would actually be spelt <fěrm>. This doesn't remove the rule that says that vowels in unstressed final syllables are generally lost when conjugating the noun in the feminine forms.
Also, I want to specify something I didn't stress out in previous lessons, which is the stress:
-If a vowel bears any kind of diacritic (including å), it's always stressed.
-Diphthongs are always stressed. When an ending moves the stress, <ou> /ɒʊ̯/ reduces to /ʊ/ and <ei> /æi̯/ reduces to /ɪ/. I will mark this monophthongization in spelling.
-Stress for nasals is a hot topic. Generally, nasal vowels are stressed, but I realize that the rule I taught for nasal vowels is oversimplified. If you see no accent on a word, and there is a vowel before <n> in coda, that vowel will bear the stress, but it will only be nasal if it bears no diacritic (apart from circumflex and caron, which I will use sometimes to distinguish homophones).

Fine! Time to introduce a new lesson!

Lesson 4 - Personal pronouns, part 1

Hot topic! Emilian pronouns are even worse than Emilian vowels.
Emilian has six sets of pronouns: tonic subject, atone subject, tonic object, atone object, dative and comitative. Today we'll only see subject pronouns.

Tonic subject pronouns
As I said, subject pronouns are divided in two sets: tonic and atone. Now, read these two sections carefully, as it's a bit complicated.
Tonic pronouns are the most direct translation of English subject pronouns. Curiously, they seem based on Italian object pronouns (compare mè, tè, ló with me, te, lui [it. obj. pronouns] and io, tu, egli [it. subj. pronouns]); that's why you'll hear many northern Italians (including myself) use te instead of tu in colloquial speech. These pronouns have the same function subject pronouns have in Italian, where they can be implied: they are only used to emphasize the subject. In Emilian you can imply these as well, although they are used a bit more than in Italian.
These are the tonic pronouns.


Ló/Lě (m/f; often accompanied by "lè" [there], which can go before or after as you like, to show distance)
Nuêter
Vuêter (compare these two with Spanish "nosotros" and "vosotros")
Lǒr (can be accompanied by "lè" as well)

Atone subject pronouns
Completely extraneous from the Italian language, atone subject pronouns can't be implied, not even if a tonic pronoun is already present (the only exception is with 3rd persons if they are represented by an explicit noun or name; in this case they are optional, not forbidden), and must always go directly before the verb or before other personal pronouns. The origin of these pronouns is unknown, at least to me. Here they are, excluding the 3rd persons:
1sg: A
2sg: Et (reduced to <t'> before vowels)
1pl: A
2pl: A
The atone pronoun for 3rd persons is the article you'd use if the following word were a noun, whose gender is the same of the subject. Example: before the verb (he does), you need al if the subject is a man, la if it's a woman; before ajûden (they help), you need i/j' according to your preference if the subjects are men, aj' if they are women (use the masculine form for mixed gender, i.e. 2 women and 1 man).
Example sentences:
A soun Alêsjo. - I am Alessio (never used to introduce yourself, only to answer "who's there?" or "who are you").
Mè a soun Alêsjo is correct, although it emphasizes the "I" a lot (as to say: as for me, I'm Alessio); *mè soun Alêsjo or *soun Alêsjo is not.
T'ě un êṡen! - You are a donkey! (= you are a j*ckass!)
Al sà fêr al sǒ mistěr. - He knows how to do his job.

This is all for today. Exercise time! Pick the right atone pronoun.
1. Incǒ __ vójj spazêr in cuṡeina. A gh'è trôpa pǒlvra. - Today I want to sweep in the kitchen. There is too much dust.
2. A-j-ò sintû ca __ è mǒrt Juṡêf. Puvràtt! - I heard Joseph died. Poor him!
3. Ajěr ___ sàmm stê a Môdna, ma an gh'ěra nisun. - Yesterday we went to Modena, but there was nobody.
4. Al mê fjǒli ___ m'ân* détt ca Gisto ** s'è spuṡê seinza dîrel coun nisun. - My daughters told me that Gisto got married without telling anybody. *Circumflex to distinguish with "an" (not); "year" is spelt "an" as well, but in that case it's easier to tell the meaning from the context. **Notice how an atone pronoun isn't necessary because the 3rd person is represented by a name.
5. Aah, a-j-ò capî! Tè ___ ě l'anvǒ dla Sandra! - Ah, I get it now! You are Alessandra's nephew!
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by kanejam » 12 Mar 2014 20:43

Spoiler:
1. Incǒ a vójj spazêr in cuṡeina. A gh'è trôpa pǒlvra. - Today I want to sweep in the kitchen. There is too much dust.
2. A-j-ò sintû ca al è mǒrt Juṡêf. Puvràtt! - I heard Joseph died. Poor him!
3. Ajěr a sàmm stê a Môdna, ma an gh'ěra nisun. - Yesterday we went to Modena, but there was nobody.
4. Al mê fjǒli al m'ân* détt ca Gisto ** s'è spuṡê seinza dîrel coun nisun. - My daughters told me that Gisto got married without telling anybody. *Circumflex to distinguish with "an" (not); "year" is spelt "an" as well, but in that case it's easier to tell the meaning from the context. **Notice how an atone pronoun isn't necessary because the 3rd person is represented by a name.
5. Aah, a-j-ò capî! Tè t'ě l'anvǒ dla Sandra! - Ah, I get it now! You are Alessandra's nephew!

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 13 Mar 2014 16:52

Again, you are using al in place of l' in "l'è". Watch out! Apart from that, everything is correct.
So!

Lesson 5 - Verb Basics

Before we introduce new pronouns, since we already have the subject forms, it's probably best to talk about verbs, as we won't be able to make sentences without them.
There are three groups of verbs in Emilian: verbs in -êr, in -er and in -îr. Only the second group has an unstressed infinitive ending, as you can note (compare with Latin, as Kanejam taught me some time ago). Here are some verbs:
Ciacarêr - talk, speak (the Italian-like version "parlêr" - from an "Emilianization" of parlare - exists as well, but it's not really used, so stick with "ciacarêr")
Seinter - hear, feel
Finîr - finish, run out

1st group: -êr
1st group verbs, ending in -êr, are declined this way.
Example: ciacarêr
Mè a ciacâr
Tè't ciacâr (this is the only case in which "et" is reduced to " 't" [with an apostrophe before, and not after as before a vowel] - after "tè".)
Ló al ciacâra
Nuêter a ciacaràmm (the <e> in <nuêter> is sometimes mute when unstressed in quick speech)
Vuêter a ciacarê(v) (same as above for <e>; the <v> is optional, I use it only when the following word begins with a vowel)
Lǒr i ciacâren

As you can notice, the length of the last vowel in the infinitive has been moved to the preceding vowel in unstressed endings (the unexistent ending of 1 and 2sg and the 3rd persons). This generates a problem: when conjugating verbs in -erêr/-orêr (eg. sperêr, to hope) you can't establish if you have to use ê or ě, ô or ǒ. There is no distinction between open and closed E/O in unstressed positions, but there is when they are stressed. To avoid this, I decided I'll mark these vowels with a dot below when they become open <ê ô> in the conjugated verb: <ẹ ọ>. Don't worry - there aren't a lot. Sperêr declines with a closed <e>: mè a spěr.
There is also another, bigger problem, which is ablaut. If the vowel preceding the ending is <i> or <u>, there are three possible ways it could change when it gets the stress: into a short vowel (<é ó>), a long vowel (<ě ǒ>) or a diphthong (<ei ou>). Additionally, it could even not undergo ablaut at all. The rules governing this are extremely hard to define, so I will just tell you what becomes what every time. You will see that this is practically the opposite of the ablaut rule for -er verbs.

2nd group: -er (unstressed)
Example: seinter
Mè a seint
Tè't seint
Ló al seint
Nuêter a sintàmm
Vuêter a sintî(v)
Lǒr i seinten

OK, remarks. The first 3 persons are identical, and they all correspond to the verb root. Notice that 1st group verbs have an ending for 3sg, whereas there is none for 2nd group ones.
1pl and 2pl show ablaut of the originally stressed vowel. Bad news: this is common to more or less every verb in -er. Good news: you can generally predict the vowel you have to use. This is the most common pattern:

ei and ou → i and u (see the rule I already taught about ablaut and diphthongs; eg. roumper → rumpàmm)
à, è → i (eg. màtter → mitàmm; a <t> is also lost, as it's no more needed)
ě, ê, é, è → sometimes e (practically unchanged, eg. pěrder → perdàmm), other times i (eg. lěżer → liżàmm)
ô, ǒ, ó, ò → u (eg. gójjer → gujàmm)

Stressed <i> and <u> are uncommon in 2nd group verbs; I can't think of any. I think they would stay the same anyways.

3rd group: -îr
Example: finîr
Mê a finéss
Tè-t finéss
Ló al finéss
Nuêter a finàmm
Vuêter a finî(v)
Lǒr i finéssen

Notice that in Italian there are two possible sets of endings for verbs in -ire: one in -o, -a... and one in -isco, -isci...; the Emilian declension is related to the latter, and every verb in -îr follows the scheme above; if it doesn't, it has to be considered irregular, and that's it. Example: in Italian the verb partire (to leave, to start) is declined as io parto, tu parti..., whereas in Emilian partîr is mè a partéss, tè't partéss... (which would seem to derive from io partisco, tu partisci...).
This declension shows ablaut of the vowel before the ending in every person: <e> becomes <i>, and <o> becomes <u>. The other vowels are left unchanged.

That's it! Now you can form the present of regular verbs. Your exercise: decline these. The verbs in -êr from this list don't undergo ablaut.
Magnêr (eat), quacêr (cover - keep that <c> soft! Apostrophes and <i>'s exist for a reason...), vànder (sell), scrévver (write - the <é> becomes <i> under ablaut), vestîr (dress), capîr (understand).
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by kanejam » 13 Mar 2014 23:40

Alessio wrote:(eg. màtter → mitàmm; a <t> is also lost, as it's no more longer needed)
Just a small English error. You can also say 'it is needed no more' but this is really poncy; the informal version would be 'it isn't needed anymore'.

I'll try to keep an eye on those articles and remember that the third person atones behave in the same way (although I'll assume they don't fuse with preceding prepositions, as in French de le faire?)

The verbs are very interesting, they are sort halfway between Italian and French conjugations and then gone crazy [:P]
Spoiler:
Magnêr (eat)
Mê a mâgn
Tè't mâgn
Ló al mâgna
Nuêter a magnàmm
Vuêter a magnê
Lǒr i mâgnen

Quacêr (cover)
Mê a quâc'
Tè't quâc'
Ló al quâcia
Nuêter a quaciàmm
Vuêter a quacê
Lôr i quâcen

Vànder (sell)
Mê a vànd
Tè't vànd
Ló al vànd
Nuêter a vindàmm
Vuêter a vindê
Lôr i vànden

Scrévver (write)
Mê a scrévv
Tè't scrévv
Ló al scrévv
Nuêter a scrivàmm
Vuêter a scrivî
Lôr i scrévven

Vestîr (dress)
Mê a vistéss (is that ablaut correct?)
Tè't vistéss
Ló al vistéss
Nuêter a vistàmm
Vuêter a vistî
Lôr i vistéssen

Capîr (understand)
Mê a capéss
Tè't capéss
Ló al capéss
Nuêter a capàmm
Vuêter a capî
Lôr i capéssen
PS ablaut and syncope? This language is awesome!

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by DesEsseintes » 14 Mar 2014 08:40

Here are my attempts, better late than never. [:)]
Spoiler:
Âlma (soul) - feminine, l'âlma aj'âlmi, n'âlma
Parǒl (bucket) - masculine, al parǒl, i parǒl, un parǒl
Arlǒj (clock) - masculine, l'arlǒj, j'arlǒj, un arlǒj
Zitê (city) - fem, la zitê, al zitê, na zitê
Patâja (shirt) - fem, la patâja, al patâji*, na patâja
Pjǒld (plow) - masc, al pjǒld, i pjǒld, un pjǒld
*does the final -i not drop after j ?
Spoiler:
Cêr (clear) - cêr, cêra, cêri
grând (big) - grând, grânda (???*), grândi
*sounds very wrong :(
brótt (ugly) - brótt, brótta, brótti
żǒven - żǒven, żǒvna, żǒvni
cîn (small) - cîna, cîni
fûreb - fûreb, fûrba, fûrbi
indurmintê - indurmintê, indurmintêda, indurmintêdi
Spoiler:
1. Incǒ a vójj spazêr in cuṡeina. A gh'è trôpa pǒlvra.
2. A-j-ò sintû ca l'è mǒrt Juṡêf. Puvràtt!
3. Ajěr a sàmm stê a Môdna, ma an gh'ěra nisun.
4. Al mê fjǒli al m'ân* détt ca Gisto ** s'è spuṡê seinza dîrel coun nisun.
5. Aah, a-j-ò capî! Tè t'ě l'anvǒ dla Sandra!
Spoiler:
magnêr

Mè a magn
Tè't magn
Ló al magna
Nuêter a magnàmm -> Nuêtr'a magnàmm
Vuêter a magnêv
Lǒr i magnen

quacêr

Mè a quac'
Tè't quac'
Ló al quacia
Nuêter a quaciàmm -> Nuêtr'a magnàmm
Vuêter a quacêv
Lǒr i quacen

vànder

Mè a vànd
Tè't vànd
Ló al vànd
Nuêter a vindàmm
Vuêter a vindîv
Lǒr i vànden

scrévver

Mè a scrévv
Tè't scrévv
Ló al scrévv
Nuêter a scrivàmm -> Nuêtr'a magnàmm
Vuêter a scrivîv
Lǒr i scrévven

vestîr (dress)
Mè a vistéss
Tè't vistéss
Ló al vistéss
Nuêter a vistàmm -> Nuêtr'a magnàmm
Vuêter a vistîv
Lǒr i vistéssen

capîr (understand)

Mè a capéss
Tè't capéss
Ló al capéss
Nuêter a capàmm -> Nuêtr'a magnàmm
Vuêter a capîv
Lǒr i capéssen
And a question: does Emilian have separate masc and fem 3rd person plural pronouns? Lǒr i vs Lǒr al?

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 14 Mar 2014 18:59

I'm really sorry I have no time for a new lesson, but I will answer nevertheless.
Kanejam: thank you for the correction. I've always used that form because my teacher never corrected me, but I'm kind of sure she is addicted to cocaine. Seriously. She comes in with an evil look on her face, then all of a sudden she smiles and says (or better, shouts) "Good morning!", sometimes in English and sometimes in Italian, according to her mood. Today I got a test back and I discovered that I got 9½ instead of 10 (maximum here) because I wrote "in return for" and she corrected it with "in return of". I'm almost sure I was right, wasn't I?
Yes, although articles fuse with preceding prepositions, atone subject pronouns don't. At least, I can't think of situations where they would. As for the conjugation, your only error is vindê which is actually vindî. I'm sure /vin'dεː/ exists in some kind of nearby regional language, maybe Lombard or Venetian. That would be understood for sure. Ah, and yes, the ablaut in "vestîr" is correct.

DesEsseintes:
-No, the final -i isn't dropped after -j-. Curious, eh? /pa'taji/ is the standard pronunciation; as always, I say [pa'taʎi] instead, so I'm extra sure, because I would never pronounce [ʎ] there otherwise.
-Grânda sounds wrong because in Italian the feminine of grande is... grande, but it's correct.
-Watch out for the length of the stressed vowels in 1st group verbs. You didn't lengthen them properly, ex. mâgn, mâgna and quâc', quâcia.
-Yes, "lǒr i" is for males and "lǒr al" is for females.

Good job you both anyways! Get ready for the new lesson tomorrow ;)
Last edited by Alessio on 15 Mar 2014 13:10, edited 1 time in total.
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by kanejam » 15 Mar 2014 01:38

You're right about 'in return for'. It may depend on context although I can't for the life of me think of any sentence where 'in return of' is correct. Is your teacher originally Italian? She sounds a bit odd although language teachers in general seem weirder than other types of teachers.

Thanks for the correction, though. I'm glad I'm not making too many mistakes.

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 15 Mar 2014 20:59

Yes, she's Italian... unless you are in a language school (not my case) you almost never have mothertongue teachers here.
Anyways! Before we begin, I want to announce that I decided to use <i> instead of <j>, except between vowels. That way, <j> will only happen in places where younger speakers realize [ʎ]. As always, almost any way to write Emilian is correct, as far as it's understandable.

Lesson 6 - Personal pronouns, part 2

It's about time for us to discuss the other sets of personal pronouns.
We are left with four: the two accusative sets, the dative and the comitative.
Bear in mind that Emilian nouns don't decline for case; only the pronouns do.

Atone object pronouns
By far more used than their tonic counterparts, these pronouns can be regarded as some sort of accusative case. 1st and 2nd persons happen to be represented by only one letter:

M
T
(article)*
S
V
(article)

These pronouns are generally appended at the end of the atone subject pronoun (or to the name replacing them, but if there is an object pronoun, it's better to use the atone subject pronoun as well); the two can be separated by a hyphen, if you like. I encourage this spelling to avoid ambiguities as much as possible. You have to respect some rules when using these pronouns.
First, 3sg masculine objects use <ll'> instead of <l'> (e.g. all'ò vést, I have seen him). In this last case, the /l/ is actually geminate, but we can consider this an "incident" rather than a separate phoneme, as it's the only form of gemination present in Emilian.
Second, leave out atone subject pronouns composed of just one <a> (1sg, 1pl and 2pl) when the object pronoun begins with <a> itself. This isn't an exception to the rule that stated you can't imply them - rather, it's a way to avoid a collision between two <a>'s, of which just one is pronounced anyways.
Third, when attaching an atone object pronoun to <al>, the latter becomes <a> (follow the previous rule for this one as well). So <al> can mean at least four things: it can be an article, a 3sg subject atone pronoun, the combination of a 1sg and a 3sg pronoun or the combination of two 3sg pronouns. Nice, uh?
Finally, the atone subject pronoun <et> merges irregularly with atone object pronouns: t'm (syllabic M), t'et (actually a reflexive...), t'eg, t'as, - (useless), t'eg.
Sample sentence:
At/A-t seint, et pǒ anc ciacarêr pió pian! - I hear you, you can talk at a lower volume!

Tonic object pronouns
These pronouns are mostly used with prepositions, rather than to express the object of a sentence. However, the latter is the purpose they were created for, so I think that classifying them as "tonic object pronouns" is more correct.
Well... we have a little surprise here. In modern Emilian, tonic object pronouns are identical to tonic subject pronouns. Originally, 1pl and 2pl used to change into "nò" and "vò" respectively; nowadays, these two pronouns are only used in polite speech.
When you use a tonic object pronoun (which goes after the verb), you are underlining the object of the sentence. Compare:

A-t vàdd. - I see you.
A vàdd tè. - I see you (and not another person).

Dative pronouns
These pronouns are the same as atone object pronouns, with the exception of 3rd persons, and follow the exact same rules. Of course, they are used to express the indirect object of the sentence, and sometimes they can express benefit (is this the way you say it? I mean the italic part of the sentence "this book is for me").

M
T
G
S
V
G

These pronouns can be replaced by a mè, a tè ecc. to become tonic, i.e. to emphasize the indirect object, with the same mechanism as for other pronouns.
T'm dê fastéddi! Smàttla! - You are annoying me (lit. you are giving me annoyance)! Stop it!

Comitative pronouns
Clearly evolved from Latin, these pronouns exist neither in Italian, nor in French; however they are (partly) present in Spanish (conmigo, contigo, consigo). This is one of the many connections between Emilian and Spanish.
As you can imagine, they express company, but sometimes they are used in place of indirect objects (eg. with the verb dîr, say/tell).

Měg
Těg
Sěg (no gender distinction)
Nôsg
Vôsg
Sěg

A vâg sěg! - I go with him/her/them (depending on context)!
Al dégg těg parchè a sò ch'a-m pôs fidêr. - I say it to you because I know I can trust you (trust is reflexive in Emilian, and the trusted person comes after the preposition "ed", but here it's implied).

Fine. This is all for today! Tomorrow I have to wake up at 6:15 to see the Australian Grand Prix (FORZA FERRARI!), which starts at 7:00am here, so I'd better go to bed now (9pm) so I can sleep a bit more than the other days. I'll post your exercises tomorrow. Study the rules for these pronouns - particularly for atone objects - and if you have any doubt just ask.

A-s sintàmm edman! (hear you - lit. us [refl]/each other - tomorrow!)
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 18 Mar 2014 20:39

Wow, I'm sooooo late! I'm really sorry, but I had no time to work at these exercises earlier. I had a History oral test today (I got 9, over 10 as always, so I'm really happy!) and I kinda sorta remembered Sunday... it's a miracle it went well!
Anyways, time for your exercises (but not for the lesson - I haven't worked on that yet). Complete:

1) Vîn ____, a vâg a Môdna. - Come with me, I'm going to Modena.
2) S'a-___ vàdd tǒ mêdra ch'at lâs andêr edcǒ i cåpp l'a-___ mâza tótt e dû! - If your mother sees me letting you go on the roof, she'll kill us both!
3) A-___ dâg al tǒ lébber indrě sǒl sa t'__ pêg dumélla franc. - I'll give your book back (to you) only if you pay me two thousand liras (notice the term "franc" - Emilian borrowed so much from French, that is uses the same currency name although it's not the same currency!).
4) An vójj ménga ____, a vójj ____! - I don't want him, I want you!
5) Al ragazǒl al mâgna _____ incǒ e _____ edman. - The boy will eat with (by) us today and with you tomorrow.
6) A-___ vójj dêr na cåppa, 'baldo! - I want to give you a cup, Ubaldo! (from the song Ubaldo by Bolognese singer Andrea Mingardi, who sings most of his songs in Emilian)
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by DesEsseintes » 19 Mar 2014 15:20

Here's my attempt. [:)]
Spoiler:
1) Vîn mêg, a vâg a Môdna. - Come with me, I'm going to Modena.
2) S'a-m vàdd tǒ mêdra ch'at lâs andêr edcǒ i cåpp l'a-s mâza tótt e dû! - If your mother sees me letting you go on the roof, she'll kill us both!
3) A-t dâg al tǒ lébber indrě sǒl sa t'm pêg dumélla franc. - I'll give your book back (to you) only if you pay me two thousand liras
4) An vójj ménga ló, a vójj tè! - I don't want him, I want you!
5) Al ragazǒl al mâgna nôsg incǒ e vôsg edman. - The boy will eat with (by) us today and with you tomorrow.
6) A-t vójj dêr na cåppa, 'baldo! - I want to give you a cup, Ubaldo!

Is A-g vójj dêr na cåppa - I want to give him/her a cup?
What does ménga mean? I have an Itslian cognate in mind, but it's rather rude... [:$]

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atman
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by atman » 19 Mar 2014 16:10

DesEsseintes wrote:Here's my attempt. [:)]
Spoiler:
1) Vîn mêg, a vâg a Môdna. - Come with me, I'm going to Modena.
2) S'a-m vàdd tǒ mêdra ch'at lâs andêr edcǒ i cåpp l'a-s mâza tótt e dû! - If your mother sees me letting you go on the roof, she'll kill us both!
3) A-t dâg al tǒ lébber indrě sǒl sa t'm pêg dumélla franc. - I'll give your book back (to you) only if you pay me two thousand liras
4) An vójj ménga ló, a vójj tè! - I don't want him, I want you!
5) Al ragazǒl al mâgna nôsg incǒ e vôsg edman. - The boy will eat with (by) us today and with you tomorrow.
6) A-t vójj dêr na cåppa, 'baldo! - I want to give you a cup, Ubaldo!

Is A-g vójj dêr na cåppa - I want to give him/her a cup?
What does ménga mean? I have an Itslian cognate in mind, but it's rather rude... [:$]
Minchia! Looks like they're cognates indeed!
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

Alessio
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by Alessio » 19 Mar 2014 17:45

Hahaha no! Ménga = mica in Italian (popular, not actually correct) = pas in French! We'll discuss this today ;)
I don't use vulgar words in sample sentences haha!
Anyways, congratulations to DesEsseintes, 100% correct. And yes, what you wrote under the exercises is true.
Fine!

Lesson 7 - Negations and questions

Negating a statement
The Emilian language uses a double negation system, with an atone negation, represented by an (which can be reduced to <n> and attached [with a hyphen or directly] to any subject personal pronoun, if it ends in a vowel), and a tonic negation, which can be represented by three words: ménga, brîṡa and mìa.
Mìa is way more common in the mountains; ménga and brîṡa are used equally in the plains, and sometimes you could hear mìa even there when your interlocutor is speaking quickly, to shorten the sentence.
A-n ciacâr ménga inglêṡ. - I don't speak English.
Oh, t'anbrîṡa stêr zétt! - Oh, you really can't shut up!

If the following word begins with a vowel, an additional <n'> is added before it. Guess what? /n/ geminates. And we have two geminates already!
Mârio an n'è ménga mě pêder! - Mario is not my father!

Other negating words can replace the tonic negations, just like with French pas:
A-n vàdd gninta. - I don't see anything.
-n t'ě nisun! - You are nobody! (notice how you can attach <n> to the tonic pronoun without problems - however, this isn't mandatory. You can attach it to the atone pronoun as well, even if there is a tonic pronoun)

Asking questions
Just like in English but unlike in Italian, in Emilian you have to invert the subject (atone personal pronoun only) and the verb when asking questions. It is good practice to link them with a hyphen to underline the inversion. Et and al (but not la) are shortened to <t> and <l>.
Ě-t Gujělm? - Are you William?

If, however, a tonic personal pronoun is present, the inversion is optional.
Tè t'ě/ě-t Gujělm? - Are you William? (in this case the meaning doesn't change much, even with that pronoun there)

The 3sg form of the verb ěser (to be), which is normally è, becomes ě when there is an inversion.
Ě-l Gujělm? - Is he William?

The atone pronoun a becomes ia /jɐ/ in inversions, and it's replaced by <v> for 2pl (you could consider this as using the "complete" ending).
Sàmm-ia arivê? - Have we arrived?
Andê-v a Ràmma? - Are you going to Rome?

Notice that inversions apply both to yes/no questions and to WH-words questions.
Ind'andê-v? - Where are you going?
Chi ě-l? - Who is he?

Enough for today. Exercises! Form yes/no questions out of the following statements.
1) Lè ló l'è tǒ nôn. (sort of a tongue-twister, eh?) - That man there is your grandfather.
2) Mě surêla l'è incinta. - My sister is pregnant. (watch out - always check what <l'> stands for...)
3) A soun un êsen. - I'm stupid. (lit. I'm a donkey - I've used this already, haven't I?)
4) Al và in banca. - He's going to the bank.
5) Vuêter a savî nadêr. - You can swim.
6) I gh'ân dimóndi sôld. - They have a lot of money. (NB: gh'ân is all part of the same verb - we'll see this soon)
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...

greatbuddha
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Re: Tgnàmm Bôta - Emilian lessons and resources

Post by greatbuddha » 19 Mar 2014 22:19

Thanks for this :). Resources on Romance "dialects are so hard to find.
तृष्णात्क्रोधदुःखमिति उद्धो बुद्धः

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