Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

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dva_arla
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Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by dva_arla » 29 Oct 2019 10:25

Are there versions of "Basic English" created for other languages, i.e. one that contains basic words needed for basic "mastery" of a language? As of now, I am learning Russian and Persian, but any such list may be posted here for other languages as well, so that they may benefit learners of said languages.

NB : A "Basic xxx-ese" of a language is different from the "1000 most frequently used words in xxx-ese". Frequency lists can be oftentimes less helpful; it could list basic words in the bottom, while "un-elementary" words appear somewhere in the top thpusand just because they are often used in newspapers or the literature.

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Tanni » 29 Oct 2019 19:45

You might be interested in my thread Discussing basic vocabulary, see also the Landau Core Vocabulary, linked to in the first post of that thread.
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by dva_arla » 30 Oct 2019 12:47

Thanks! But I don't know how to open LaTex codes [:(]

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Tanni » 30 Oct 2019 15:25

dva_arla wrote:
30 Oct 2019 12:47
Thanks! But I don't know how to open LaTex codes [:(]
The LaTeX code is a source text. You need to download and install a LaTeX distribution such as MiKTeX. Send me a personel message.
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Tanni » 30 Oct 2019 20:06

You've got a personal message!
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Ser » 30 Oct 2019 20:38

Tanni wrote:
30 Oct 2019 15:25
dva_arla wrote:
30 Oct 2019 12:47
Thanks! But I don't know how to open LaTex codes [:(]
The LaTeX code is a source text. You need to download and install a LaTeX distribution such as MiKTeX. Send me a personel message.
I don't think expecting users to install and compile LaTeX sources is reasonable though. [xD] Man, just provide a PDF...

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Tanni » 30 Oct 2019 20:45

Ser wrote:
30 Oct 2019 20:38
Tanni wrote:
30 Oct 2019 15:25
dva_arla wrote:
30 Oct 2019 12:47
Thanks! But I don't know how to open LaTex codes [:(]
The LaTeX code is a source text. You need to download and install a LaTeX distribution such as MiKTeX. Send me a personel message.
I don't think expecting users to install and compile LaTeX sources is reasonable though. [xD] Man, just provide a PDF...
As you see, I've made a bbcode version of the main part of the list. LaTeX has the advantage that you can automatically
count the words per list. This is good when you change it very often. You always get the amount of words without the need
to count them.
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by dva_arla » 31 Oct 2019 16:20

Okay, so I've managed to check out the vocabulary list that Tanni has compiled (thanks for guiding me through LaTex, and sorry for the burden I put you through). While the list would be an invaluable help to conlangers, it (and the LCV as well as the 2000-word LUV list) would not do much good in beginners' language acquisition. The LCV and the core list is too "universalist" for language acquisition; trying to cater to all cultures, doing so by finding a common denominator, and the LUV contains words that would be too "advanced" for a beginner.

What I have in mind is some sort of list akin to the Kyoiku (school-grade) kanji of Japanese, or the Basic English 850-word list for that matter:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix ... _word_list

i.e. a basic vocabulary that would be enough for first or second-form schoolchildren, beginners in a foreign language, A1 students, etc. I guess that this list won't be universal -- holding true for all of humankind (or "con-intelligent-creature") then, since each culture would require different words and concepts to enable basic discourse, oral or literary. Therefore each language would have a different set of such list.

So... do anybody have a Russian or Persian "version" of Ogden's list? Or of other languages, for that matter, in case someone would be interested.

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Tanni » 31 Oct 2019 18:12

dva_arla wrote:
31 Oct 2019 16:20
Okay, so I've managed to check out the vocabulary list that Tanni has compiled (thanks for guiding me through LaTex, and sorry for the burden I put you through). While the list would be an invaluable help to conlangers, it (and the LCV as well as the 2000-word LUV list) would not do much good in beginners' language acquisition. The LCV and the core list is too "universalist" for language acquisition; trying to cater to all cultures, doing so by finding a common denominator, and the LUV contains words that would be too "advanced" for a beginner.
My basic list is made with conlanging in mind. In that thread, I come up with the idea of parameterizing the list, one for language comparing, one for conlanging, one for language learning. There may be other parameters as well, depending on the people and their life circumstances.
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Reyzadren » 31 Oct 2019 22:34

dva_arla wrote:
31 Oct 2019 16:20
What I have in mind is some sort of list akin to the Kyoiku (school-grade) kanji of Japanese, or the Basic English 850-word list for that matter:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix ... _word_list

i.e. a basic vocabulary that would be enough for first or second-form schoolchildren, beginners in a foreign language, A1 students, etc. I guess that this list won't be universal -- holding true for all of humankind (or "con-intelligent-creature") then, since each culture would require different words and concepts to enable basic discourse, oral or literary. Therefore each language would have a different set of such list.

So... do anybody have a Russian or Persian "version" of Ogden's list? Or of other languages, for that matter, in case someone would be interested.
tbf, if you are looking for a basic vocabulary list that primary school students would learn with, instead of a frequency list, wouldn't one just buy a "student dictionary" commonly sold in shops of the target language? Note, while such a student dictionary could be helpful academically even if there is no official list, it is NOT the best way for a foreigner to learn the language imo. This is my opinion after comparing such "student dictionary" in that natlang with the "frequency list" and "learner vocabulary list" in my own conlang, and there are noticable differences amongst the 3 lists.
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by dva_arla » 01 Nov 2019 04:11

Reyzadren wrote:
31 Oct 2019 22:34
This is my opinion after comparing such "student dictionary" in that natlang with the "frequency list" and "learner vocabulary list" in my own conlang, and there are noticable differences amongst the 3 lists.
You made a "learner vocabulary list? Care to share?

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Ser » 01 Nov 2019 22:55

The Royal Spanish Academy has published the word frequencies of its CREA corpus of modern Spanish (the RAE also has the CORDE, a corpus of historical Spanish, but there's no frequencies for that). The frequencies can be accessed as text files here:

http://corpus.rae.es/lfrecuencias.html

Since some weeks ago I've working on a frequency dictionary for learners off the large file, which I'll make available for free. [:D]

It's surprisingly tedious and slow to make entries, even after I wrote a program to help me find inflections of a word down the list, since the frequencies were taken without any processing (e.g. "tienes", "tiene", "tener" and "tenemos" are listed separately, and Roman numerals like XLII also count as entries). I'm talking about a speed of 20 words per hour. I'll be posting previews/drafts as I hit round thousands (1000, 2000, 3000, etc.).

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Reyzadren » 01 Nov 2019 22:57

dva_arla wrote:
01 Nov 2019 04:11
Reyzadren wrote:
31 Oct 2019 22:34
This is my opinion after comparing such "student dictionary" in that natlang with the "frequency list" and "learner vocabulary list" in my own conlang, and there are noticable differences amongst the 3 lists.
You made a "learner vocabulary list? Care to share?
No, I meant to say that they weakly correlate to the words listed in a favoured sequence for basic/general proficiency in my conlang textbook, minus anything marked as advanced in earlier chapters, or anything in later chapters. (Admittedly, I sometimes forget to make such markings clear, these will be improved in future edits)
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Khemehekis » 02 Nov 2019 21:40

Dva_arla, would the list in the Snowball Game be the perfect compromise for you? Not counting the names, there are 625 word-entries. It has some animals, clothing words, technology, and other non-universals, but nothing too Latinate for a child-level vocabulary.
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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Salmoneus » 03 Nov 2019 01:32

dva_arla wrote:
29 Oct 2019 10:25
Are there versions of "Basic English" created for other languages, i.e. one that contains basic words needed for basic "mastery" of a language? As of now, I am learning Russian and Persian, but any such list may be posted here for other languages as well, so that they may benefit learners of said languages.

NB : A "Basic xxx-ese" of a language is different from the "1000 most frequently used words in xxx-ese". Frequency lists can be oftentimes less helpful; it could list basic words in the bottom, while "un-elementary" words appear somewhere in the top thpusand just because they are often used in newspapers or the literature.
I think your premise is flawed.

The basic words that are need for basic mastery of a language ARE the words that are used most often - they are the elementary words. It would be pointless learning 'basic' vocabulary that was rarely used, and equally pointless to fail to learn words that you would often encounter in conversation.
The concern about 'literature' can be addressed by looking at a spoken corpus rather than a literary one.

[one thing you might want to do is weight a frequency list in favour of semantic breadth. That is, instead of having 50 words about the most common topic, maybe take 30 about that topic and then 20 from a less common topic just to provide some breadth. And of course actual learner listss will be particularly skewed toward the circumstances of the average learner, like the words used in giving directions and the like.]

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by lsd » 03 Nov 2019 15:38

Ogden's Basic English is not just a list of common words, but a quick kit that allows you to quickly speak English understandably...
most languages, with regard to their often more complex grammars, can not simplify the language as well...

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by dva_arla » 04 Nov 2019 01:52

lsd wrote:
03 Nov 2019 15:38
a quick kit that allows you to quickly speak English understandably...
That's precisely what I'm looking for!

Of course, for other languages, it could take more or less than 850 words... is such list available for languahes other than English?


By the way, Khemehekis, thank you for the "Snowball game" list. I'd see what I can do with it.

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Re: Ogden's "Basic English" for other languages?

Post by Khemehekis » 07 Nov 2019 14:19

You're welcome!
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 60,137 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

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