Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

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Keenir
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Keenir » 03 Sep 2015 00:12

wakeagainstthefall wrote:HEY GUY, I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE BUT no just kidding. It wasn't meant to be as defensive as it came off, I guess. That's pretty good. I've been interested in the Greek of the Septuagint because of its Hebraicisms, but I'd like to go much further than that. Basically, my goal is to have a language that has a good mix of Greek and Hebrew vocabulary and phonology while maintaining a lot of the complexities of Greek grammar and some of the neat features of Hebrew like the consonantal roots and status constructus. Am I asking for too much? Maybe I am.
maybe not a creole, but a mixed language? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michif_language
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 03 Sep 2015 00:21

wakeagainstthefall wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
cntrational wrote:Well, I guess Hellenolangs are coming in now
Quick, wish for something else! [:)]
Hey, 1. Greek is really cool. 2. I've been attempting this for years. 3. I've been away from the conlanger community for awhile, so I would have no idea what the trends are now or even what they were a year ago.
I'm pretty sure I am misinterpreting your post's intent here, so I will clarify mine in the interest of, well, clarity.

Cntrational and I had both commented in a thread recently about Romlangs, and he pointed out that there was a serious dearth of Greek-Inspired conlangs, no more than a day (maybe just hours) later you made this thread. So, to me, it looked as though he had wished this thread into existence. As a joke between the two of us, I said that he should wish for more things now, since, obviously, he has magical abilities that allow his wishes to come true.

It was a bit of a shitty inside joke, so I'm sorry if that caused you confusion. (To be clear, I think your idea is pretty cool!)

Back to the thread, already in progress!!
Edit: Shimo ninjaed me... and simultaneously nailed my intent! Good on him! [:)]
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Davush
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Davush » 03 Sep 2015 00:45

wakeagainstthefall wrote: HEY GUY, I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE BUT no just kidding. It wasn't meant to be as defensive as it came off, I guess. I misread that. Sorry, guys.That's pretty good. I've been interested in the Greek of the Septuagint because of its Hebraicisms, but I'd like to go much further than that. Basically, my goal is to have a language that has a good mix of Greek and Hebrew vocabulary and phonology while maintaining a lot of the complexities of Greek grammar and some of the neat features of Hebrew like the consonantal roots and status constructus. Am I asking for too much? Maybe I am.
I think if your goal is to create a realistic Greek-Hebrew creole (due to language contact), then combining the most morphologically complex and messy parts of both languages isn't very plausible. However, if you want to it be plausible in a historical context then you could always imagine something like a new sect of Judaism/whatever religion from the time bringing together both Hebrew and Greek to create some kind of religious language.

Or, you can just create it anyway to see how it turns out.

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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 03 Sep 2015 01:38

Keenir wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:HEY GUY, I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE BUT no just kidding. It wasn't meant to be as defensive as it came off, I guess. That's pretty good. I've been interested in the Greek of the Septuagint because of its Hebraicisms, but I'd like to go much further than that. Basically, my goal is to have a language that has a good mix of Greek and Hebrew vocabulary and phonology while maintaining a lot of the complexities of Greek grammar and some of the neat features of Hebrew like the consonantal roots and status constructus. Am I asking for too much? Maybe I am.
maybe not a creole, but a mixed language? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michif_language
Yes, make a mixed language. The Wikipedia page on mixed languages say they often retain the inflectional complexities of both languages (but with a [citation needed] so take from that what you want). However, some mixed languages are definitely pretty complex, so that's probably the way to go.
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light

wakeagainstthefall
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 03 Sep 2015 03:14

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:HEY GUY, I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE BUT no just kidding. It wasn't meant to be as defensive as it came off, I guess. That's pretty good. I've been interested in the Greek of the Septuagint because of its Hebraicisms, but I'd like to go much further than that. Basically, my goal is to have a language that has a good mix of Greek and Hebrew vocabulary and phonology while maintaining a lot of the complexities of Greek grammar and some of the neat features of Hebrew like the consonantal roots and status constructus. Am I asking for too much? Maybe I am.
maybe not a creole, but a mixed language? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michif_language
Yes, make a mixed language. The Wikipedia page on mixed languages say they often retain the inflectional complexities of both languages (but with a [citation needed] so take from that what you want). However, some mixed languages are definitely pretty complex, so that's probably the way to go.
Alright, sounds good. If the mixed language has Greek grammar and extensive Hebrew lexical influence, how far could I go with simplification of the grammar? And would it be possible to change the grammar a little bit by endings changing slightly and introducing a few grammatical features from Hebrew? Is the idea of having nouns that are Greek normally use Hebrew in its status constructus form, perhaps for shortening or fixed terms?
Magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. -Multomixtor

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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 03 Sep 2015 03:23

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
cntrational wrote:Well, I guess Hellenolangs are coming in now
Quick, wish for something else! [:)]
Hey, 1. Greek is really cool. 2. I've been attempting this for years. 3. I've been away from the conlanger community for awhile, so I would have no idea what the trends are now or even what they were a year ago.
I'm pretty sure I am misinterpreting your post's intent here, so I will clarify mine in the interest of, well, clarity.

Cntrational and I had both commented in a thread recently about Romlangs, and he pointed out that there was a serious dearth of Greek-Inspired conlangs, no more than a day (maybe just hours) later you made this thread. So, to me, it looked as though he had wished this thread into existence. As a joke between the two of us, I said that he should wish for more things now, since, obviously, he has magical abilities that allow his wishes to come true.

It was a bit of a shitty inside joke, so I'm sorry if that caused you confusion. (To be clear, I think your idea is pretty cool!)

Back to the thread, already in progress!!
Edit: Shimo ninjaed me... and simultaneously nailed my intent! Good on him! [:)]
Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean for it to sound as defensive as it did. Glad you guys like the idea. I'm quite surprised at the scarcity of Greek-based conlangs also. I mean, just writing in something other than Latin script alone would hook me in right away.
Magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. -Multomixtor

:usa: :esp: :zho: :lat:

Keenir
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Keenir » 03 Sep 2015 04:08

wakeagainstthefal wrote: Alright, sounds good. If the mixed language has Greek grammar and extensive Hebrew lexical influence, how far could I go with simplification of the grammar? And would it be possible to change the grammar a little bit by endings changing slightly and introducing a few grammatical features from Hebrew? Is the idea of having nouns that are Greek normally use Hebrew in its status constructus form, perhaps for shortening or fixed terms?
I don't see why not.

a thought -- write down examples of these, both in and out of the constructus form, and in other uses you want to try.

we'd be interested to see them, if you wish to share such tests; if you'd rather not, keep the tests to yourself; either way, it will hopefully help you decide.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Shemtov
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Shemtov » 03 Sep 2015 04:55

cntrational wrote:Well, I guess Hellenolangs are coming in now
Or this can team up with Iiłò'ełìt to make Hebreolangs a thing.....
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

wakeagainstthefall
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 03 Sep 2015 23:23

Shemtov wrote:
cntrational wrote:Well, I guess Hellenolangs are coming in now
Or this can team up with Iiłò'ełìt to make Hebreolangs a thing.....
Would he/she be interested? Wonder if I can get in contact with them. Anyway, I should probably post a phonology.
Magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. -Multomixtor

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Lambuzhao
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Jun 2016 12:31

Egerius wrote:
cntrational wrote:Well, I guess Hellenolangs are coming in now
If I can get my hands on a Doric Greek - English dictionary, I'll follow sooner than later.
I've said it before & I'll say it again: I [<3] Doric Greek.

I recall talking to a professor, oooh years ago, about doing a search for only Doric words in the Perseus version of the Greek Glossary.
Nothing came of it, though.

I did whip up a list of Doric Greek vocab. It was a combo of dialect attestations and doric legomena from the tragedians (which may just well be Doricized Attic {?}) from Liddell & Scott. If I can find that auncientmost file, I will upload it and share [:)]

Otherwise, I have found these links, which are prolly better, anyhow:

I have found these:

A Doric Greek-Latin Dictionarium (!)
books.google.com/books?id=dKQPAAAAQAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PR4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://www.liquisearch.com/doric_greek/ ... north-west
http://www.liquisearch.com/doric_greek/ ... y/laconian

Buck's Greek Dialects is what I used to use for the grammar, and the various tidbits nestled in Liddell & Scott.

A suggestion for the name: Lagonian (from λαγώς [B)] )

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qwed117
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by qwed117 » 04 Jun 2016 18:47

Lambuzhao wrote:
Egerius wrote:
cntrational wrote:Well, I guess Hellenolangs are coming in now
If I can get my hands on a Doric Greek - English dictionary, I'll follow sooner than later.
I've said it before & I'll say it again: I [<3] Doric Greek.

I recall talking to a professor, oooh years ago, about doing a search for only Doric words in the Perseus version of the Greek Glossary.
Nothing came of it, though.

I did whip up a list of Doric Greek vocab. It was a combo of dialect attestations and doric legomena from the tragedians (which may just well be Doricized Attic {?}) from Liddell & Scott. If I can find that auncientmost file, I will upload it and share [:)]

Otherwise, I have found these links, which are prolly better, anyhow:

I have found these:

A Doric Greek-Latin Dictionarium (!)
books.google.com/books?id=dKQPAAAAQAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PR4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://www.liquisearch.com/doric_greek/ ... north-west
http://www.liquisearch.com/doric_greek/ ... y/laconian

Buck's Greek Dialects is what I used to use for the grammar, and the various tidbits nestled in Liddell & Scott.

A suggestion for the name: Lagonian (from λαγώς [B)] )
I'm trying to find a Arcadocypriot dictionary for a conlang. Alas, it is really poorly documented.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Jun 2016 20:42

Arcado-Cypriot, eh?

If you can get your mitts on this, it might be a very worthwhile perusal:

Markus Egetmeyer, Le dialecte grec ancien de Chypre. Tome I: Grammaire; Tome II: Répertoire des inscriptions en syllabaire chypro-grec. Berlin/New York: De Gruyter, 2010.

In terms of Classical Studies, this just came out, like, yesterday. Virtually brand-spankin new!

Other than that, I'd consult Buck's Greek Dialects. Which I haven't done in far too long. :roll:

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Shemtov
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Shemtov » 07 Jun 2016 08:30

Davush wrote:This sounds like an interesting project. I think we could use Yiddish and/or Modern Hebrew as a good example to work from. Jewish communities who spoke primarily a dialect of German, but also had a good knowledge of Hebrew - this led to the introduction of a large amount of Hebrew words and 'Hebraicisms' into their German dialect, subsequently becoming Yiddish. In your conlang, we can imagine Greek-speaking Jewish communities, who for some reason decide to introduce large amounts of Hebrew, or come into contact with Hebrew L1-speakers (using alt-history where Hebrew survives intact to this period) creating this pidgin or creole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevanic_language

In honesty, the substratum would probably be Aramaic, not Hebrew, IMO.
Also, IMO, this language might work as sort of an argot for Ebionites or Nazarenes.
EDIT: Woops, didn't look at the date of the OP. I forgot this thread existed before. [xP]
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Greek/Hebrew creole (attempt #2)

Post by Lambuzhao » 08 Jun 2016 13:54

I would've said Ladino, but after reading about Yevanic... wow! [O.O]

This is as exciting, or even more, than when I learned about Mariupolitan Greek -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_Greek


I cannot wait to find more tidbits!

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