Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

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clawgrip
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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by clawgrip » 25 Aug 2016 03:21

I guess I misunderstood then. The OP made it sound as though you were making an original conscript that was simply based on these ancient scripts, not just doing a spelling reform. This line:
...constructing a script based on Old Persian and the Paleohispanic scripts.
is what led me to that conclusion. If it was never your intention to make an original script then I apologize for my unrelated posts about conscripts.

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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 25 Aug 2016 13:40

clawgrip wrote:I guess I misunderstood then. The OP made it sound as though you were making an original conscript that was simply based on these ancient scripts, not just doing a spelling reform. This line:
...constructing a script based on Old Persian and the Paleohispanic scripts.
is what led me to that conclusion. If it was never your intention to make an original script then I apologize for my unrelated posts about conscripts.
It is very hard in my experience to devise a script that does not resemble an existing natscript or conscript. The closest I come to devising an original script is arbitrarily assigning characters from Unicode.

Speaking of which, my third idea was reforming Old Turkic script so that the consonants indicate whether a vowel is front or back similar to the umlaut. I am pretty sure that has not been done before.

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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by Keenir » 25 Aug 2016 22:10

MoonRightRomantic wrote:
clawgrip wrote:I guess I misunderstood then. The OP made it sound as though you were making an original conscript that was simply based on these ancient scripts, not just doing a spelling reform. This line:
...constructing a script based on Old Persian and the Paleohispanic scripts.
is what led me to that conclusion. If it was never your intention to make an original script then I apologize for my unrelated posts about conscripts.
It is very hard in my experience to devise a script that does not resemble an existing natscript or conscript.
that sounds like a wager.

(do elements from one natscript look like elements from other natscripts? yes - look at Korean and English: they both have lone circles and flat lines; how dare they!)
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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by clawgrip » 26 Aug 2016 01:17

The more I read this thread, the more confused I get. In this day and age you can't make anything without it being derivative of something else, be it constructed scripts, languages, music, sculpture, fiction, comedy, whatever. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make anything, it just means you just try to make things in a way that is not blatant or relying too much on one source, and that employs some interesting combinations.

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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by Keenir » 26 Aug 2016 07:20

clawgrip wrote: In this day and age you can't make anything without it being derivative of something else, be it constructed scripts, languages, music, sculpture, fiction, comedy, whatever.
and even when, as conlangers, conscripters, musicians (etc), we avoid being derivative, that only goes as far as we're aware (like "this reminds me of a dialect of Dutch" or "don't the Octonauts use that script on their computers?", etc)
That doesn't mean you shouldn't make anything, it just means you just try to make things in a way that is not blatant or relying too much on one source, and that employs some interesting combinations.
*nods*
[+1]
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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by elemtilas » 26 Aug 2016 17:01

MoonRightRomantic wrote:Old Persian seems to have started, when it was being devised by scribes and loosely influenced by the cuneiform syllabaries, as a syllabary with /a/ deletion which through simplification became defective to the point of being a haphazard mix of syllabary and alphabet with inherent vowel /a/. This makes it very similar to Bamum script, moreso than Meroitic which seems to have started as an alphabet derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics like its contemporaneous alphabets.
Okay, well it looks like you dó have some idea how the historical scripts came about. What I think now is that I'd still like to hear about this script's fictional history; to say nothing of what it looks like and how it works!
My script logic is still really rough. I think next draft that long/short vowels would be written like <sa sa-a sa-i sa-i-ja sa-u sa-u-va> /sa sa: si si: su su:/. Here /a/ is the inherent or deleted vowel and thus makes distinguishing diphthongs /ai au/ difficult without knowledge of the language. Long vowels may often be implicit, rather than written, as they are in many natural languages.

For example, /Cai/Ci/ /Cau/Cu/ would be written as <Ca-i> <Ca-u>. /Ca:i/ /Ca:u/ would be unambiguously <Ca-a-i> <Ca-a-u>.
If I understand right, this would mean that symbol X stands for sound ka; but there is no syllabic symbol for ke, ko, ku & ki. Those are achieved by X plus an independent vowel letter.

Also, just so I have it straight: is 'sa' actually the long and 'sa-a' the short; or is 'sa' the short and 'sa-a' the long? (I'd expect the latter, but you have it worded long/short : sa/sa-a so I wanted to clarify.
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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by Keenir » 28 Aug 2016 08:53

MoonRightRomantic wrote:I'm thinking on constructing a script based on Old Persian and the Paleohispanic scripts. Old Persian was similar to Brahmic scripts in that its consonants had inherent vowel /a/ and no explicit notation for vowel dropping, but had independent vowels like an alphabet; like Latin and Etruscan <c k q>, some of its consonants changed appearance depending on the following vowel. The Paleohispanic scripts were initially alphabetic after being adopted from Phonecian, but their languages lacked vowel clusters for plosives and later versions of the script made stops into syllabary graphs.

I thought such an irregular system would feel more real compared to typical regular constructed scripts. What do you think?
Edit: Sorry, some Old Persian consonants changed graph depending on the following vowel while others use the graph with inherent vowel /a/ or /Ø/ followed by the vowel it changed to. Paleohispanic languages lacked consonant clusters using plosives.
sort of like this? http://s587.photobucket.com/user/SoCalN ... .jpeg.html
just in case that doesn't work: http://rodlox.deviantart.com/art/Fictio ... -631002196

are those what you had in mind for an Old Persian style script?
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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 29 Aug 2016 14:03

clawgrip wrote:The more I read this thread, the more confused I get. In this day and age you can't make anything without it being derivative of something else, be it constructed scripts, languages, music, sculpture, fiction, comedy, whatever. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make anything, it just means you just try to make things in a way that is not blatant or relying too much on one source, and that employs some interesting combinations.
I apologize for being unintentionally obtuse. I feel that it would be easier to use ISO Latin or another Unicode script before actually trying to devise a unique script.
elemtilas wrote:Okay, well it looks like you dó have some idea how the historical scripts came about. What I think now is that I'd still like to hear about this script's fictional history; to say nothing of what it looks like and how it works!
I have not devoted time to that yet.
elemtilas wrote:If I understand right, this would mean that symbol X stands for sound ka; but there is no syllabic symbol for ke, ko, ku & ki. Those are achieved by X plus an independent vowel letter.

Also, just so I have it straight: is 'sa' actually the long and 'sa-a' the short; or is 'sa' the short and 'sa-a' the long? (I'd expect the latter, but you have it worded long/short : sa/sa-a so I wanted to clarify.
<sa> stands for /s/ and /sa/, while <sa-a> stands for /sa:/. The <-> indicates a separation between written characters, which the usual convention of representing Old Persian in the ISO Latin alphabet. See this encyclopedia article and educational resource for more information.
Keenir wrote:sort of like this? http://s587.photobucket.com/user/SoCalN ... .jpeg.html
just in case that doesn't work: http://rodlox.deviantart.com/art/Fictio ... -631002196

are those what you had in mind for an Old Persian style script?
I was working with an alphabet like ISO Latin or Old Persian cuneiform, but your attempt looks very pretty and I think you should pursue it. What natural scripts inspired the aesthetic and what spelling rules are you using? I have difficulty deciphering the handwritten script.

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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by Keenir » 30 Aug 2016 02:54

MoonRightRomantic wrote:
Keenir wrote:sort of like this? http://s587.photobucket.com/user/SoCalN ... .jpeg.html
just in case that doesn't work: http://rodlox.deviantart.com/art/Fictio ... -631002196

are those what you had in mind for an Old Persian style script?
I was working with an alphabet like ISO Latin or Old Persian cuneiform, but your attempt looks very pretty and I think you should pursue it. What natural scripts inspired the aesthetic and what spelling rules are you using?
at the time I made it, nothing inspired it.

in hindsight, I can see bits of Ogham (the vowels stabbing into the word), and English & Korean (the o bit) :)
I have difficulty deciphering the handwritten script.
sorry; it was a draft to get the idea across.
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Re: Semi-syllabary: mix of alphabet, abugida and syllabary?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 30 Aug 2016 13:43

Keenir wrote: at the time I made it, nothing inspired it.

in hindsight, I can see bits of Ogham (the vowels stabbing into the word), and English & Korean (the o bit) :)
Interesting. It reminds me of a couple conscripts on omniglot that use a stem and branch arrangement.

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