Pinyin-Style Input Panel

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GrandPiano
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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by GrandPiano » 09 Jan 2017 23:24

Shayquanne Taylor wrote:GrandPiano: That is interesting. I did not know that, but I guess it makes sense. The question would then be how did the "h" sound get almost entirely wiped from the language but stick around in just a few words?
One possibility might be that it stuck in a few common words because more common words are more likely to resist change (although I don't know how likely that is with a sound change like deletion). Another possibility is that it was already an uncommon phone to begin with (like English /ð/, the "th" sound in "that") and it was never actually deleted. When you say it's better transliterated as "oo", do you mean it sometimes is pronounced "oo" rather than "hoo" or just that /h/ isn't a common sound?

Could you transliterate and translate the photo you uploaded, and if you can, give some sort of a gloss and explain some of the grammar (and point out the grammatical errors that you said are present)? If you don't know how to do a proper gloss, a simple word-for-word translation is fine.

If you could upload a recording of yourself saying the poem and/or some of the words you've listed (indicating which one(s) of course), that would be great too.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Evynova
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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Evynova » 09 Jan 2017 23:39

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... _languages

It has to be related to Chinese in some way. The numbers look strikingly similar.

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 10 Jan 2017 01:21

qwed117: I would expect it to be Indo-European, given where we come from, but very few of the words are cognates of words in Indo-European languages. The language does not sound like it when spoken. Also, while the numbers 5-9 have some similarity to Indo-European languages, 0-4, 10, 100, and 1000 do not. More below...

Davush: In extension of my last two sentences, I shall say that the grammar in Kidden is very different than English, being that Kidden has, in general, a Subject-Object-Verb word order. Also, Kidden combines words more closely to how Chinese and other East and South-East Asian languages do. For example, "disaster" in English is basically "bad star" when you look at the etymology, and the words are combined into one word. In Kidden, "disaster" is "toy mot" / "toy mawt" or "great death," where the two roots remain separate and unchanged.

Now, to the example sentences. I have given five, each in three rows: first, the English sentence, then the Kidden word order, and then finally the Kidden approximate transliteration.

I open a box
I box open
Na(m) took pin


When will you come?
When come (here) you
Bat lar ya man?


I want to see a dog
Dog see I want (to do)
Kook er Na chip lei saw


Where did I put my coffee?
I-(possessive) coffee where put (this) (past tense implied)
Na-oo coffee bai rog-yo <rog-yo is pronounced as "rogo">


Do you want to go to the movies?
Movies go and see you want (to do) <can have extra ending here like "with me" or "right" to imply an offering>
Movie(s?) pat e-er ma lei saw <"Nam wa" / "bam">

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 10 Jan 2017 01:24

Oops, not Subject-Object-Verb. I misspoke. Sorry.

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 10 Jan 2017 01:29

Hmm... now, looking at it, I do not know what the "right" word-order description is. When I typed that, I was thinking about the sentence "I box open," but that rule is not strictly true. What tipped me off was the sentence "dog see I want," which has a very odd structure now that I think about it. I am not a grammarist -- does anybody know what that is?

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 10 Jan 2017 02:16

While I was typing, you guys posted a few new things, so I shall respond. First, to the suggestion that this is somehow related to Chinese, I can't see how that is possible given the geographic distance of my ancestors to China.

Next, as to the pronunciation of "Hoo," everybody says "Hoo" and not "Oo," but I figured that, for consistency, "Oo" would be better because I had not thought that the "H" would be a carry over from a previous time.

Next, to the idea that it is related to Berber, there are too many symbols for it to be Berber. I have about 2,600 words and characters, and about 500 unknown or roughly-approximated historical characters.

Next, to translating the poem, the poem is an endearing letter from my older sister to my mother. The poem, when roughly translated (many idioms and phrases and the meaning of several words are not comparable to English at all, and the grammar is very poetic and hard to exactly pin-down) means:

"You healed [my sickness/implied] so gently as a child, so I hug you tight
That is what grows strongly around the deepest love in my heart
Home is where sweet wine is had"

Here is the character-for-character breakdown <with the meaning of compound-words in brackets>

"Bundle-hug<carressed child> you gentle/ly healed (since/because) came I you hug tight
It that hug-heart<deepest love> around-snake<bound tightly> grows strong
Home where wine/drink drink"

You can see that several of the characters have a very clear picture meaning. The word for wine is the second-to-last character and looks like two wine vessels. The last character, meaning "to drink," is a mouth with a wave under it. The word for "came" is legs with a little tick under it. The first character, "bundle" looks like a wrapped-up bundle of things. And so forth.

Sorry if the meaning of the poem is not entirely clear from the character-for-character breakdown. The wording *is* legitimately very poetic. Now, for the grammatical errors, there are two, but they are minor and do not hurt the meaning. The first is that the character for "it" and "that" (the first and second characters on the second line) are backwards from how they should be. The next is that there should be an extra character after the one for "where" (the second character on the third line); the character missing is that for the word "sweet," because otherwise the sentence refers to like an adult beverage rather than like a family-friendly one (if that makes sense -- like without that character the word "wine" has like a bad connotation sometimes).

I shall try to get a voice recording of both the sentences from the previous post as well as of this poem. However, I do not know how to post it. Any advice?

And seriously, Thank You all for your help. It is really appreciated :)

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by qwed117 » 10 Jan 2017 03:10

Evynova wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... _languages

It has to be related to Chinese in some way. The numbers look strikingly similar.
I'm almost in complete opposition to you: I think it's a Indo-Aryan language. The word list is a strange thing, almost suggesting a mix of the two. At best Chinese is a superficial influence.
Looking at a list of "cognates", let's see what we best get

Code: Select all

0  	Lai    PS /leng/
1	  Ti     PS /ʔjit/
2	  Ni     PS /*nyijH/
3	  Thi   Hi /t̪iːn/
4	  Lei    ?????
5	  Pai    Hi /pãːt͡ʃ/
6	  Chai   Hi /t͡ʃʰɛ/
7	  Sat    Hi /saːt̪/
8	  Ai     Hi /aːʈʰ/
9	  Nai    Hi /nɔː/
10	 Sai    PS /*dzyip/ or Hi /das/
100	Sam   Hi /sau/
1k	 Hoo    Hi /hajar/
10k	Lak     Hi / lak/ (actually 100k)
While the 0-4 gap is highly unusual, it is possible to "wave" it away easily. They (at least 0,2) very well might be borrowings from Chinese. 1 and 4 might be new loans from other languages. Just because numbers are helpful for the reconstruction of PIE, doesn't mean they're all powerful. Look at Guanche Berber. That's a hella strange change

Regarding the 1st Person and 2nd Person is much more strange. They look nothing like either Hindi nor Chinese
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What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 10 Jan 2017 03:50

qwed117: For some background, my family has been in America since at least the 1920's and looks neither Indian nor Chinese. We look, at best, slightly Hispanic, like a lighter-skinned Arab, I guess. We have no recollection of being from China or Eastern Asia at all. Our faith is Christian, most close to like Eastern Orthodox (I guess -- I am not very religious so I don't really know).

I looked at the number list posted by Evynova. It looks kind-of similar, but not enough to call it a direct fit. Actually looking at the numbers from Burmese: 1 Tac, 2 Hnac, 3 sum, 4 le. My thinking is that maybe my family was moving around for a while and maybe picked up some words from different languages along the way (if that is possible -- I don't know the laws of languages influencing one another). Another thing to note is that some words look Arabic, which would make sense if we spent some time in Syria or Iran or Albania. Consider that the word for "fire" is "Nar" and "blood" is "Dam" and so forth.

A final note is that, unlike languages like Chinese, Viet Namese, Thai, and others, there are no rules for syllable construction in Kidden. In Chinese, say, there are rules on what can and what cannot be a syllable. The same goes for other East-Asian languages. There are no such (apparent) rules in Kidden, such that a syllable like "Wert" ("to be pleased") is just as legitimate a syllable as "Na" ("I"). Also, there are no tones like in East Asian languages.

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Aszev
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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Aszev » 10 Jan 2017 21:51

Burmese, Hindi, Romani and Arabic give quite a few supposable cognates.

Code: Select all

1      Ti        Bu. thit
2      Ni        Bu. hnit
3      Thi       Bu. thone: 
4      Lei       Bu. ley
5      Pai       Hi. pā͂c
6      Chai      Hi. chaḥ
7      Sat       Hi. sāt
8      Ai        Hi. āṭh
9      Nai       Hi. nau
10     Sai       Bu. hsè
100    Ti Sam    Hi. sau
1000   Ti Hoo    Hi. hazār
10000  Ti Lak    Hi. lākh (100k)
	
I      Na / Nan  Bu. nga
you    Ma / Man  Bu. mang:
this   Yo        Hi. yaha
who    Bi        Bu. bè (which)
fish   Nach      Hi. machlī, Ro. ma(t)sho
dog    Kook      Hi. kuttā
blood  Dam       Ar. dam
tail   Pooch     Hi. pū̃ch
ear    Nay       Bu. na:
nose   Nik       Ro. nakh, Hi. nāk
tooth  Dart      Hi. dā̃t, Ro. dand
tongue Lip       Hi. jībh
hand   At        Hi. hāth
die    Mawt/Mot  Ar. māta
give   Pei       Bu. pe:
sun    Gam       Ro. kham
moon   Joon      Ro. chhon, Hi. cānd
fire   Nar       Ar. nār
year   Parsi     Ro. bersh, Hi. varṣ
name   Nam       Hi. nām
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

Image CE

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 10 Jan 2017 22:13

Hm... so, is Kidden just then like a mash-up of different languages? If so, and particularly from India and South-East Asia, then how did we wind up in Albania or Syria? There is no recorded migration of people from the Burma region to Eastern Europe or the Arab Near East. Especially not more than 100 years ago.

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by qwed117 » 11 Jan 2017 00:48

Shayquanne Taylor wrote:Hm... so, is Kidden just then like a mash-up of different languages? If so, and particularly from India and South-East Asia, then how did we wind up in Albania or Syria? There is no recorded migration of people from the Burma region to Eastern Europe or the Arab Near East. Especially not more than 100 years ago.
This is where you're mistaken. There in fact was a migration from India, 1000 years ago, leaving from Uttar Pradesh, and moving westward, to Europe and the Levant. These people became known as "Gypsies" (more properly Rom or Romany). There are tons of them in the Levant and Americas where they escaped Nazi persecution in the 1950s. But the equation of this language to Romany is unlikely. The language displays some affinities to these languages, but the problem here is that the language isn't completely so. Generally "stable" vocabulary is mangled in the descendant, and there's no rhyme or reason as to the diachronics. It might be that you were born upon a family of conlangers. It's not completely unbelievable, with argots and cants spoken throughout the world.
Regarding the list that Aszev made, I would still debate whether 3 (ti) is PIE or Sino-Tibetan in nature. In addition, lip "tongue" should probably be connected with Hi/Sr लिपि (lipi) "alphabet".

I feel like Joseph Greenberg...
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My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by GrandPiano » 11 Jan 2017 06:53

Shayquanne Taylor wrote:A final note is that, unlike languages like Chinese, Viet Namese, Thai, and others, there are no rules for syllable construction in Kidden. In Chinese, say, there are rules on what can and what cannot be a syllable. The same goes for other East-Asian languages. There are no such (apparent) rules in Kidden, such that a syllable like "Wert" ("to be pleased") is just as legitimate a syllable as "Na" ("I"). Also, there are no tones like in East Asian languages.
Every language* has "rules for syllable construction" (i.e. phonotactics). Languages like English may have much looser phonotactics than a Chinese language like Mandarin, but they still have them. "Wert" has a pretty simple syllable structure; is a syllable like "fdlamspst" allowed in Kidden?

*OK, there might a few languages that challenge this, but I highly doubt that Kidden is one of them.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Shayquanne Taylor » 11 Jan 2017 19:01

On the notion of the Romani people, I have looked into their history, and they seem to come from northwestern India, where my family (at least according to what some of you have been suggesting) would have been coming from southeastern India or even southern China or the Indochinese peninsula (I know that that's an outdated term, but I could not find another word). Moreover, we do not look like the Romani people -- well, maybe a little, we have straight black or brown hair, but our skin is much lighter, and our faces do not look like theirs. So I do not see how we could be related.

Next, on the formation of syllables, what I meant is that, unlike Chinese or Viet Namese, there are no formal "official" ways of constructing a syllable. For example, in Viet Namese, each syllable comes in three parts: an initial syllable, a middle vowel, and a final consonant. In Mandarin, there is a chart of syllables and rules such as that the "ü" sound can only come after certain letters, and so forth. No such "official" rules exist for Kidden, albeit, you are right, there are some patterns and general trends.

Finally, on the original topic of creating a PinYin panel, I have encountered a problem. Korean input already has mapped letters to characters, which would not be the same in Kidden. There are letter combinations which do not have a corresponding character, such that the letter combination "L-e-r-t" is not available, even though that is a valid word in Kidden. The same problem exists with the rest of the CJKV character set. So, when the input panel has the pop-up of likely symbols, nothing will be listed in many cases.

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Re: Pinyin-Style Input Panel

Post by Davush » 11 Jan 2017 19:54

Shayquanne Taylor wrote:
Next, on the formation of syllables, what I meant is that, unlike Chinese or Viet Namese, there are no formal "official" ways of constructing a syllable. For example, in Viet Namese, each syllable comes in three parts: an initial syllable, a middle vowel, and a final consonant. In Mandarin, there is a chart of syllables and rules such as that the "ü" sound can only come after certain letters, and so forth. No such "official" rules exist for Kidden, albeit, you are right, there are some patterns and general trends.
Every language has syllable structure, or 'rules' which define what is permissible in a syllable. Mandarin and Vietnamese are just particularly restrictive of what can occur in a syllable. English also has rules about what can or can't make up a syllable - they are just more complex than those of Chinese languages, for example.
On the notion of the Romani people, I have looked into their history, and they seem to come from northwestern India, where my family (at least according to what some of you have been suggesting) would have been coming from southeastern India or even southern China or the Indochinese peninsula (I know that that's an outdated term, but I could not find another word). Moreover, we do not look like the Romani people -- well, maybe a little, we have straight black or brown hair, but our skin is much lighter, and our faces do not look like theirs. So I do not see how we could be related.
This might have been more fun if it were presented as a reconstruction challenge of an undiscovered fictional language, which this clearly this. Your story of family migration from South-East Asia and through the Middle East makes no sense when looking at the language. It's been presented as a language which has 'picked up' various elements from a bunch of languages but that's not how language works. People end up learning the majority language of where they are, and only keep minority languages if there is a strong enough impetus (i.e. a large diaspora community, and even then lots of the second generation prefer to use the majority language). The alleged presence of clicks in only two speakers is completely bizarre, given how clicks are found in the world's languages today.

The physical descriptions you have given have no relevance on the language at all, and don't reveal much about your ancestry story either. Nor have you told us where your grandparents or great-grandparents came from other than a vague 'maybe the Middle East'. Assuming that your great or great-great grandparents were not born in the US, any travel made by them and previous generations would be in the pre-airtravel/car era, meaning a journey from Burma to the Middle East would take a while, and to 'pick up' words, several generations would probably have had to live in a certain area. By which time they would have assimilated to the local majority language, unless they were completely isolated, or a large enough community. None of these possibilities are feasible in this case given the information.

Otherwise, this has been quite amusing (although I'm not sure if the OP really believes we are so easily fooled?).

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