Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

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Isfendil
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Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by Isfendil » 29 Aug 2016 05:35

Very simple question here: What Turkic or Mongolic language is a very good intro to understanding how the grammar of said languages work? I hear that Turkish itself is very regular but I am wondering if the whole family is that way or not.

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by k1234567890y » 29 Aug 2016 12:21

Sadly I don't know any Turkic or Mongolic language, although I possess some knowledge of a Tungusic language, it is Manchu, however, Manchu is slightly more irregular compared to Japanese and Turkish I think.
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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by Isfendil » 29 Aug 2016 16:07

k1234567890y wrote:Sadly I don't know any Turkic or Mongolic language, although I possess some knowledge of a Tungusic language, it is Manchu, however, Manchu is slightly more irregular compared to Japanese and Turkish I think.
Manchu wouldn't happen to be both tonal and agglutinative, would it?

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by k1234567890y » 30 Aug 2016 02:45

Isfendil wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Sadly I don't know any Turkic or Mongolic language, although I possess some knowledge of a Tungusic language, it is Manchu, however, Manchu is slightly more irregular compared to Japanese and Turkish I think.
Manchu wouldn't happen to be both tonal and agglutinative, would it?
Manchu is not tonal as what I know, you misunderstood?
...

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by Isfendil » 30 Aug 2016 03:17

k1234567890y wrote:
Isfendil wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Sadly I don't know any Turkic or Mongolic language, although I possess some knowledge of a Tungusic language, it is Manchu, however, Manchu is slightly more irregular compared to Japanese and Turkish I think.
Manchu wouldn't happen to be both tonal and agglutinative, would it?
Manchu is not tonal as what I know, you misunderstood?
No I was just curious. It is agglutinative, though? And what are the extent/nature of its irregularities?

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by k1234567890y » 30 Aug 2016 12:35

Isfendil wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:
Isfendil wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Sadly I don't know any Turkic or Mongolic language, although I possess some knowledge of a Tungusic language, it is Manchu, however, Manchu is slightly more irregular compared to Japanese and Turkish I think.
Manchu wouldn't happen to be both tonal and agglutinative, would it?
Manchu is not tonal as what I know, you misunderstood?
No I was just curious. It is agglutinative, though? And what are the extent/nature of its irregularities?
yes, it is agglutinative, however, the plural forms of few nouns and the conjugations of several verbs are different.

While the regular conjugation pattern of a Manchu Verb follow the following rules, and vowel harmony should be considered in certain cases:

- present/future: -mbi
- future/present(also used for attributive verbs in present tense, like Japanese, Manchu uses attributive verb to form relative clauses): -ra/-re/-ro
- past(or perfective): -ha/-he/-ho
- converb I: -me
- converb II(indicating the action of the verb ended with -fi happens first): -fi
- desiderative: -ki
- imperative: -Ø
- prohibitive: the future/present form+the preverbal word ume

these are not all, but I think what I have listed are the more common ones

an example of the conjugation pattern of a regular verb in Manchu is genembi " to go":

- present/future: gene-mbi
- future/present: gene-re
- past(or perfective): gene-he
- converb I: gene-me
- converb II(indicating the action of the verb ended with -fi happens first): gene-fi
- desiderative: gene-ki
- imperative: gene
- prohibitive: ume genere

however, some verbs are irregular for example, the conjugation of the verb jembi "to eat" is irregular in certain forms(irregular forms are in bold):

- present/future: je-mbi
- future/present: jetere
- past(or perfective): jeke
- converb I: je-me
- converb II(indicating the action of the verb ended with -fi happens first): je-fi
- desiderative: je-ki
- imperative: jefu
- prohibitive: ume jetere

another example irregular verb is the verb sembi "to say"(irregular forms are in bold):

- present/future: se-mbi
- future/present: se-re
- past(or perfective): sengke
- converb I: se-me
- converb II(indicating the action of the verb ended with -fi happens first): sempi(it seems that the phoneme /p/, represented by <p>, is rare in native Manchu words)
- desiderative: se-ki
- imperative: se
- prohibitive: ume se-re
...

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by Isfendil » 30 Aug 2016 15:56

Do you know how those came to be? The first irregular almost looks like two verbs wwere conflated with each other.

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by k1234567890y » 30 Aug 2016 16:02

Isfendil wrote:Do you know how those came to be? The first irregular almost looks like two verbs wwere conflated with each other.
uncertain, unless I get data of other Tungusic languages and really done some serious research, but my guess is that the original root form of jembi might be something like jep-, and the original future form might be something like jep-dere(which then became jeptere and then jettere, a similar sound change has happened in Italian, Italian otto is from Latin octo), and the older imperative form might be -u rather than simply dropping the present ending.
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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by Isfendil » 30 Aug 2016 21:58

k1234567890y wrote:
Isfendil wrote:Do you know how those came to be? The first irregular almost looks like two verbs wwere conflated with each other.
uncertain, unless I get data of other Tungusic languages and really done some serious research, but my guess is that the original root form of jembi might be something like jep-, and the original future form might be something like jep-dere(which then became jeptere and then jettere, a similar sound change has happened in Italian, Italian otto is from Latin octo), and the older imperative form might be -u rather than simply dropping the present ending.
Manchu seems really interesting. Why do you study it? Do you study the Qing, too? How did they work with this?

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by k1234567890y » 30 Aug 2016 22:04

Isfendil wrote: Manchu seems really interesting. Why do you study it? Do you study the Qing, too? How did they work with this?
Originally I wanted to created an Altaic conlang for one of my conworlds...but I couldn't make something satisfying...so I decided to directly make a posteriori based on Manchu, and give them a background that they came to my conworld sometime before the Qing dynasty.

Btw, I think I know more about the Chinese history than the history of the western world.
...

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by Isfendil » 30 Aug 2016 22:46

k1234567890y wrote:
Isfendil wrote: Manchu seems really interesting. Why do you study it? Do you study the Qing, too? How did they work with this?
Originally I wanted to created an Altaic conlang for one of my conworlds...but I couldn't make something satisfying...so I decided to directly make a posteriori based on Manchu, and give them a background that they came to my conworld sometime before the Qing dynasty.

Btw, I think I know more about the Chinese history than the history of the western world.
This is not a bad thing.

So how proficient are you with Manchu?

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Re: Introductory Research into Turkic/Mongolic?

Post by k1234567890y » 31 Aug 2016 00:55

Isfendil wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:
Isfendil wrote: Manchu seems really interesting. Why do you study it? Do you study the Qing, too? How did they work with this?
Originally I wanted to created an Altaic conlang for one of my conworlds...but I couldn't make something satisfying...so I decided to directly make a posteriori based on Manchu, and give them a background that they came to my conworld sometime before the Qing dynasty.

Btw, I think I know more about the Chinese history than the history of the western world.
This is not a bad thing.

So how proficient are you with Manchu?
I don't think I am very proficient with it, but I can at least type some sentences, and I only know the romanization of Manchu...
...

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