Is there a way to do this on sca2?

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Davush
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Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Davush » 22 Oct 2016 17:52

Hello,

I am using the sound change applier sca2, but I have ran into a bit of a problem. Basically, I have the following sound change:

/ə/ gets deleted in a penultimate open syllable. Written as: ə//_CV#.

However, if the two consonants surrounding /ə/ are the same, I do not want /ə/ to get deleted.

So: ʃənu > ʃnu, but pəpu > pəpu. Is there anyway for me to specify this in sca2?

Thanks.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by gestaltist » 22 Oct 2016 23:42

If you don't have gemination in the language, this can be achieved with a very simple rule:

ə//_CV#
/ə/_²

If you do have gemination and want to preserve it, you can do something like:

/*/_²
ə//_CV#
/ə/_²
*//_

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Creyeditor » 23 Oct 2016 19:47

Gestaltist is such a sca2-genius [:)] Also make sure to not have vowel hiatus or doubly written vowels, otherwise you might get some /əəə/.
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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by gestaltist » 23 Oct 2016 21:17

Creyeditor wrote:Gestaltist is such a sca2-genius [:)] Also make sure to not have vowel hiatus or doubly written vowels, otherwise you might get some /əəə/.
Thanks and good point. This can easily get avoided, though. Something like:

/ə/_²/_V

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Davush » 24 Oct 2016 11:52

Thanks - these are really useful.

I was also wondering if there is any way to do this:

Let's say I have the sound change CCV > CVCV where the inserted V must be the same vowel as the one following it. I have only been able to do this by writing out a separate rule for each vowel, but this type of sound change gets tedious with large vowel inventories.

E.g. jra > jara, mni > mini, etc.

Or is there another sound change applier which can handle more complex changes?

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Frislander » 24 Oct 2016 12:18

The best I can manage is to double up the vowel symbols and then to use the metathesis function to swap the first vowel and second consonant around, like so.

V/V²/_
CV/\\/_

If you have diphthongs and long vowels denoted by doubling the letter, you'll need some way of dealing with the inevitable three-letter vowels you get.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by gestaltist » 24 Oct 2016 13:37

I think Frislander gave the best approach here. SCA2 is not good at long-distance changes, you have to resort to hacks.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Davush » 24 Oct 2016 17:03

Thanks - sca2 seems to require lots of ingenuity to get around these things (which I just don't have).

I am finding it frustrating when I have lots of exceptions to a rule such as ə//_CV# but not when it follows (C)y and (C)w.

So, nəru > nru but nyəru and nwəru would not delete /ə/.

If I write this using the 'exceptions' function:

ə//_CV#/y_
ə//_CV#/w_

It deletes /ə/ regardless.

It feels like the solutions are quite simple once you know them, but I end up using messy round-about hacks. Sorry for bombarding you with questions!

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Salmoneus » 24 Oct 2016 23:30

Davush wrote:Thanks - sca2 seems to require lots of ingenuity to get around these things (which I just don't have).

I am finding it frustrating when I have lots of exceptions to a rule such as ə//_CV# but not when it follows (C)y and (C)w.

So, nəru > nru but nyəru and nwəru would not delete /ə/.

If I write this using the 'exceptions' function:

ə//_CV#/y_
ə//_CV#/w_

It deletes /ə/ regardless.

It feels like the solutions are quite simple once you know them, but I end up using messy round-about hacks. Sorry for bombarding you with questions!
Why not just do it straightforwardly with /!/CLV_, @//_CV#, !//_ ? Unless you're really confident with this sort of thing, it's best to keep it simple like this. At least, it's best for me, my brain power isn't enough to think up elegant code. I tend not to mess around with the complicated options.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by clawgrip » 25 Oct 2016 00:34

What specifically does ! do?

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by qwed117 » 25 Oct 2016 01:00

clawgrip wrote:What specifically does ! do?
Placeholder, it isn't a functional operator tmk
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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Salmoneus » 25 Oct 2016 01:07

clawgrip wrote:What specifically does ! do?
Nothing, that's the point. It's just a symbol that you're not likely to use for a phoneme, assuming you don't use clicks. And it helps (me) that it's attention-grabbing so that I remember to get rid of it afterward. About half the lines in my sca instructions are probably adding and subtracting '!'.

Specifically, my thinking here is:

- the basic rule is @//_CV#
- I don't want that to happen sometimes, so I need to block that environment, so I need a rule to add in ! between @ and CV# sometimes
- specifically the exception is when @ comes after C followed by y or w.
- simplify 'y or w' into L with a class
- so /!/CLV_ [probably should just have been CL@_, but never mind]
- @//_CV#
- !//_

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by gestaltist » 25 Oct 2016 10:37

I think in this specific case, adding a separate category for glides is the best solution:

G=wy

ə//_CV#/G_

(There are so-called nonce categories, so in theory you should be able to do:

ə//_CV#/[yw]_

but from my experience, they don't work reliably, and especially in exceptions.)

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by clawgrip » 25 Oct 2016 12:13

Salmoneus, thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. I do something similar sometimes, but I guess I fogot random punctuation can also be used.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Frislander » 25 Oct 2016 12:16

gestaltist wrote:(There are so-called nonce categories, so in theory you should be able to do:

ə//_CV#/[yw]_

but from my experience, they don't work reliably, and especially in exceptions.)
I've discovered that you can't put in other categories as part of these nonces. So something like this wouldn't work.

ə//_CV#/[Gr]_

where G=yw.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Davush » 25 Oct 2016 12:43

On the topic of sound changes, I was wondering if anyone prefers to apply changes manually? I imagine this would be a big undertaking if your languages have a large lexicon but allows more flexibility and avoids the problems that come with computer SCAs.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by gestaltist » 25 Oct 2016 13:02

Davush wrote:On the topic of sound changes, I was wondering if anyone prefers to apply changes manually? I imagine this would be a big undertaking if your languages have a large lexicon but allows more flexibility and avoids the problems that come with computer SCAs.
I actually usually do it manually. Although, as you can see, I am rather proficient with SCA2, I find it limiting and annoying. Too many hoops you need to jump through to get it working.

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Re: Is there a way to do this on sca2?

Post by Frislander » 25 Oct 2016 13:19

Same here: I'f I'm familiar enough with the changes I've made then I can just do it in my head.

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