Greek based Conscript

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All4Ɇn
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Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 02 Dec 2016 00:58

Not entirely sure if this is the write place to ask but yesterday I came up with some interesting ideas for a new Indo-European conlang and thought it'd be neat if I created a script for it based on the Greek alphabet. I've never made a conscript before and was wondering what would be a good way to go about modifying letters from their original forms while still giving them a Greek-Latin-Cyrllic vibe?

My ideas right now are using modified forms of Ψ and Ξ to mark the same sounds as in Greek, using Φ Θ Χ for /b t g/ (as the language developed tones à la Punjabi these letters would indicate tones too), using a reborrowed form of Φ for /f/, and using modified forms of Ϝ Ι Ο Υ Ω for /w j o y u/. Do you think the script would still be able to be realistic with those factors in mind?

Also it's not as important at the moment but how would I go about creating fonts for the alphabet? Thanks for any help in advanced [:)]

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 03 Dec 2016 00:27

So many directions one could take!

You've already mined Digamma; Quoppa, Tsampi, Heta, Sho (Sogdian Greek Alphabet) , and the special Image Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.


For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my :grc: :con: Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).




Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.

:mrgreen:
Last edited by Lambuzhao on 03 Dec 2016 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 03 Dec 2016 00:36

You can also investigate/compare/mine/kitbash :ell: and Image Griko's handling of fricatives and affricates not handled in the (Classical) Greek alphabet.

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 03 Dec 2016 06:49

Lambuzhao wrote:the special Image Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.
Ooh! I didn't think of that! You could get some cool stuff with that one [:D]
Lambuzhao wrote:For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my :grc: :con: Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).
What sound does / Ր ɾ/ make?
Lambuzhao wrote:Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.
Another good idea there. Are there any good sites for that besides googling "ancient greek cursive"?
Lambuzhao wrote:You can also investigate/compare/mine/kitbash :ell: and Image Griko's handling of fricatives and affricates not handled in the (Classical) Greek alphabet.
I feel bad for not being familiar with Griko! It sounds vaguely familiar (as in I'm sure I've seen the wiki article on it at some point in my life) but besides that I'm not familiar with it. I tried looking for their orthography but to no avail. Is Griko's handling of fricatives the same as modern Greek's? As Greek has no affricates I'm sure they had to create their own ideas for it right?

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 03 Dec 2016 10:13

All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:the special Image Coptic letters might be of use, depending how wide an (Panhellenic) orthographic net you wish to cast.
Ooh! I didn't think of that! You could get some cool stuff with that one [:D]
Indeed. Coptic is the bee's knees.
[;)]
All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:For example, in addition to using Quoppa and Digamma, my :grc: :con: Iveriki uses a symbol / Ր ɾ / based on an older form of Pi (q.v. Attic Acrophonic Numerals).
What sound does / Ր ɾ/ make?
[p]

It's from an older 'limping scazon' variant of Pi (I think it gave rise eventually to Roman /P/).
You can find it as the representation for '5' /pente/ in Attic Acrophonic Numerals, which quack and waddle somewhat like Roman Numerals, but have a hint of tzatziki all their own. [:)]

All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:Also investigate some old Greek cursive/running hands - they have interesting letter formations.
Another good idea there. Are there any good sites for that besides googling "ancient greek cursive"?
Hmmmm..... lemme see....

Byzantine :ell: is, I think, what I was thinking of:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/ ... eeklet.asp

Ooh, ooh, ooh! and check out the Ligatures and Incunabula:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/ ... ekligs.asp
Fun fun fun!
:mrgreen:
All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:You can also investigate/compare/mine/kitbash :ell: and Image Griko's handling of fricatives and affricates not handled in the (Classical) Greek alphabet.
I feel bad for not being familiar with Griko! It sounds vaguely familiar (as in I'm sure I've seen the wiki article on it at some point in my life) but besides that I'm not familiar with it. I tried looking for their orthography but to no avail. Is Griko's handling of fricatives the same as modern Greek's? As Greek has no affricates I'm sure they had to create their own ideas for it right?
Quite.
Research!
(Sorry I'm in teacher-mode and not Summer 'here's a hundred oft-forgotten links to share' mode)
[;)]

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 03 Dec 2016 23:24

Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions! [:D] Of course in handwriting it'll look completely different but as for how it'll appear on computers right now it's looking like:

Αα- /a/
Бϐ- /b/
Гν- /g/
Δᵹ- /d/
Ee- /e/
Ϝϛ̇- /w/
Ζԅ- /z/
Ѳѳ- /d/ (/t/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Ιι̇ι- /i~j/ (ι is a special lowercase form used when representing /j/)
եւцϙк- /k/ (ц is the main lowercase form, ϙ is used before o/υ/ω, к is used word finally)
Λλ- /l/
Мм- /m/
Nⲛ- /n/
Нγ- /ŋ/
Ⲝⲝ- /ks/
Oo- /o/
Πϖ- /p/
Ρρϱ- /r~l/ (ρ is the main lowercase form, ϱ is used word finally)
Ͼσς- /s/ (σ is the main lowercase form, ς is used word finally)
Շт- /t/
Уυ- /y/
Ѻѻ- /b/ (/p/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final. In certain situations the /b/ is silent)
Φф- /f/
Ϫχ- /g/ (/k/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Yψ- /ps/
Ϯϯ- /t͡ʃ/
Ͽͽ- /d͡ʒ/
Ϣω-/u/

Accents:
´- High Tone
`- Low Tone
῀(Greek Circumflex)- Rising & Falling Tone
῾- /h/
ͱ- /h/ added before letter already marked with a tonal accent mark

Right now my only problems are that I don't know how to add Greek accents to non-Greek letters, I don't know how to get the Serbian italic form for т, and I'm not sure what to do about ligatures. I'd absolutely love to have a ton of ligatures, but I don't know how I could include them in the typed orthography

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 02:45

I don't think I ever tried copypasta-ing them, but Gentium Plus is a free font in which you can diacritic the bejeezus out of any letter in the font. You can stack accents/diacritics. It includes Roman/Greek extended/Coptic/Cyrillic, among other usual suspects. It's not a bad little serif font
(you'd have to prolly screencaptcha your utterances/texts, though, for full orthographic yumth)

As for ligatures, the free go-to font for that is Avdira (which I always read as 'Andira'... :roll: ).
I [<3] [<3] :mrgreen: :mrgreen: [<3] [<3] [:3] [<3] [<3] [<3] [:D] [<3] [<3] [<3]
its look/aesthetic/curves. It has :grc:, Cyrillic, Image , a goodly serviceable set of :grc: Ligatures including the funky, long-handled kickass lowercase delta, Attic Acrophonic numerals, and other yummy :grc: monetary/weight/measure symbols. And some other goodies I cannot recall...


I use it for my :grc: :con: Iveriki when I screencaptcha.

And, every time I type with it, I hear this song in my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9yAGROXCk

I prolly told you too much. [:$] [:x]

Oh yeah, did I mention that it's free. Which only adds to the whole triple chocolate fudge cakeyness of the whole deal. [:3]

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Dec 2016 03:28

Thanks for the help! I downloaded Avdira [:)]. Where do I find all of the ligatures the font can support?


Also what do you think of the alphabet I've made so far? [:D]

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 05:24

What kind of 'puter do you have?

If you have a PC/Dell/Windows clone, you can see them all in the 'Character Map' [B)]
(accessed from the Command box)

If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586

Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.



If you have a Linux or other 'puter, I dunno. [:'(]
Mebbe this-
http://fsymbols.com/character-maps/linux/

ЄϒТϒХН
[;)]

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 05:26

All4Ɇn wrote: Also what do you think of the alphabet I've made so far? [:D]

Πολὺ ϰαλὰ!

Whoops! maybe I should write -

ϖολὺ цαλὰ !

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Dec 2016 06:04

Lambuzhao wrote:If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586
I was able to find what I believe to be it through this. [:)] I'm not too sure if it has everything though because I don't see that many digraphs including the delta you mentioned earlier [:S]
Lambuzhao wrote:Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.
I'm the sole member of the Apple cult in my family so I know how you're feeling [;)]
Lambuzhao wrote:ϖολὺ цαλὰ !
Thanks! Having just discovered Anatolian hieroglyphs I'm contemplating whether or not to throw in a few of those. Not sure if that'd be realistic though

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Dec 2016 06:11

Lambuzhao wrote:ЄϒТϒХН [;)]
:wat: Huh?

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 13:42

All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:If you have a MAC, there's a trick I don't fully understand, that I did on my Macbook Pro last week, that has it up in my upper tool ribbon-thingie. Hmmmm.... mebbe I can find the link that I used-
Access Mac Character Viewer
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201586
I was able to find what I believe to be it through this. [:)] I'm not too sure if it has everything though because I don't see that many digraphs including the delta you mentioned earlier [:S]
Hakuna mutata. There's a subdirectory where you can click on/off what subsets of the symbols/emojis you want visible: Extended Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Phonetic, Chinese Hanzi, Dingbats, Mathematical, Divination, etc.

I think those ligatures are treated at Dingbats or Private Use subset.


Lambuzhao wrote:Sorry I show so little love for MACs. I've been so brainwashed over the years by Bill Gates' warlockery.
I'm the sole member of the Apple cult in my family so I know how you're feeling [;)]
Indeed.
Lambuzhao wrote:ϖολὺ цαλὰ !
Thanks! Having just discovered Anatolian hieroglyphs I'm contemplating whether or not to throw in a few of those. Not sure if that'd be realistic though
Hmmm... I'd steer towards exploring Linear B for any antiquarian litterary holdovers.
Yet, why not?
Maybe your conlang is some kind of Trojan Greek ?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on.svg.png

Dunno how up you are on Ionian, Aeolic, Doric dialects, though.
:wat:

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 13:48

All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:ЄϒТϒХН [;)]
:wat: Huh?
Whoops. I meant

ЄϒТϒХIA!
[ey.ty.'xi.a]
good=fortune-NOM.SG

Or mebbe

ЄϒТϒХЄIΣ!
[ey.'ty.xe:s]
have.good.luck<PRS>2SG

ooooh, this-

ἴθι εὐτυχής!
['i.θi ey.ty.'xɛ:s]
go<IMPTV>2SG lucky-NOM.SG


https://books.google.com/books?id=2AQsA ... in&f=false

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 13:54

Or maybe this

ТϒХЄIN APIΣTON!

http://artcondition.gr/wp-content/uploa ... /05/34.jpg

[:)]

IMHO This whiffs of 'translationese to sell possibly fake antiquities'
Last edited by Lambuzhao on 04 Dec 2016 14:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 14:07

Wow.
Or even this:

ἐπ' ἀγαθῷ!
[e.pa.ga.'θo:j]

http://168.100.10.111/05_detail/ST130R.htm

All mean "Good Luck"

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Dec 2016 19:11

Lambuzhao wrote:Hakuna mutata. There's a subdirectory where you can click on/off what subsets of the symbols/emojis you want visible: Extended Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Phonetic, Chinese Hanzi, Dingbats, Mathematical, Divination, etc.

I think those ligatures are treated at Dingbats or Private Use subset.
I found this!!! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultra-c ... ls=1&mt=12 [:O]

Most of the ligatures my computer can't treat as typable but I can copy all of them as pictures. Would take some work but still possible [:)]
Lambuzhao wrote:Hmmm... I'd steer towards exploring Linear B for any antiquarian litterary holdovers.
Yet, why not?
Maybe your conlang is some kind of Trojan Greek ?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on.svg.png

Dunno how up you are on Ionian, Aeolic, Doric dialects, though.
:wat:
Well I wasn't thinking they'd be exactly like Anatolian hieroglyphs. Just that maybe some of the most frequently used nouns had forms that are often written in hieroglyphs instead of letters

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by Lambuzhao » 04 Dec 2016 22:59

All4Ɇn wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:Hakuna mutata. There's a subdirectory where you can click on/off what subsets of the symbols/emojis you want visible: Extended Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Phonetic, Chinese Hanzi, Dingbats, Mathematical, Divination, etc.

I think those ligatures are treated at Dingbats or Private Use subset.
I found this!!! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultra-c ... ls=1&mt=12 [:O]
Those MACs and their apps! [:D]
Most of the ligatures my computer can't treat as typable but I can copy all of them as pictures. Would take some work but still possible [:)]
whaaaaaaa‽‽‽‽ [>:O]

That's unfortunate. [:(]
After all, MACs are supposed to be more flexible than a Klein Bottle that just graduated from 5-Dimensional Yoga School. [:S]
Well I wasn't thinking they'd be exactly like Anatolian hieroglyphs. Just that maybe some of the most frequently used nouns had forms that are often written in hieroglyphs instead of letters
Well, insofar as :grc: autochthonous orthographic developments are concerned:

1) Linear B does Syllabary and ideograms (not unlike :jpn: ). There are a number of ideograms for things like royalty, precious metals, foodstuffs, animals, and other merch.

2) The Byzantine Ligatures have some condensed forms for entire words.


Two avenues worth exploring!
[:)]

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Re: Greek based Conscript

Post by All4Ɇn » 05 Dec 2016 02:18

Here's a sample sentence so far [:)]. Given that it's by far the most accessible system that looks anything like it, I suppose I'll be using Egyptian hieroglyphs and the more straight forward Linear B logograms until I can find something similar.

Кιυѻⲛ νeιeγ ԅeρoς
Kyǘn geyeng zeros.
I heard the crane's call.


I tried posting a hieroglyph for crane but for some reason it wouldn't work. Does this forum not support hieroglyphics?

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