How to make an R-Turkic language?

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Zythros Jubi
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How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 30 Oct 2019 06:59

I've picked up my dormant plan to make an R-Turkic language recently, which is supposed to be spoken by a (yet to be named) people descended from Avars, Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans (with elements of Hussite refugees and Transylvanian Saxons), spoken in most of Covasna County, eastern Harghita County, around Bicaz in Neamț county, and western Bacău County *here*, roughly taking the place of Csangos and Szekelys (excluding Northern Csangos of Vlach origin, and most Szekelys in Aranyos Seat and in Maros Seat are Magyar-speaking like *here*), with a Catholic majority and Calvinist minority (~500,000 speakers). It was originally started as a Turkic-to-Hungarian bogolang, but I rejected the idea later.

The language is influenced by Latin, Church Slavonic and Middle High German, as well as Kipchak and Oghuz branches of Turkic; Hungarian and German being the main source of transmitted loanwords. Due to its isolation in the mountains, the language was able to preserve many archaic features; however monolingualism is commonplace since Middle Ages.

PS: there is no consensus about the origin of Szekelys, a Turkic hypothesis relates it to the Turkic tribal name Esegel/Eskil and the language and speaker's name can also be derived from it (Eskel, for the time being); meanwhile other peoples, including Magyars and Romanians, migrating into this area got assimilated to this language.
Among other writers who mentioned Esegels, the Persian “Geography“ of 982 named Ishkils as one of three Bulgarian tribes, who were constantly conflicting among themselves.[9] Gardizi, the author of the composition Zain al-ahbar (mid-11th century), wrote: "Between possessions of Bulgars and possessions of Eskels, who also belong to Bulgars, is a Magyar area. These Magyars are also a Türkic tribe".[10] Constantine Porphyrogenitus wrote that endoethnonym of the "Magyar Türks" was Savartoiaskaloi, i.e. Savart (Suvar/Sabir) and Eskel.[11] Yu.A.Zuev summarized that It is held that Eskels (Esegels) merged with Hungarians (Magyars). The ethnographic group Sekei (written form Szekler) are recognized as their descendants.[12] Esegels left a prominent trace in the Northern and Western Europe as last and first names, mostly in the form "Askel".
Now I find it difficult to build the vocabulary, while avoiding being too similar to Chuvash. There is a Turkic Swadesh list on Wiktionary, and over 1/3 of about 300 words in Chuvash cannot find cognate in any other Turkic languages (however, one should also aware of semantic shift). I have no idea whether they're of Uralic origin, or ancient roots preserved in Oghuric only, or from an unknown substrate in Volga-Ural area; I only make use of roots present in Starostin's database for the time.

As for sound changes, I don't know the condition of the a>ɯ shift in Oghur (for short *a only?) and how to do with vowel length in closed and open syllables. Another difficulty is onomastics: placenames and personal names of Eskel area, as toponymy in Szeklerland *here* shows no sign of Turkic influence.

Besides I also want to create a descendent of Vlach language in Slovakia and Moravia; other projects include a group of (perhaps para-Chamic) Austronesian langs spoken in Mauritius, Seychelles and Reunion; a paleo-Balkanic lang spoken in Northeast Balkans.
Last edited by Zythros Jubi on 31 Oct 2019 04:08, edited 2 times in total.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

Zythros Jubi
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Posts: 380
Joined: 24 Nov 2014 17:31

Re: How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 30 Oct 2019 09:45

Some preliminary sound changes, inspired by Hungarian sound changes and Bulgar/Chuvash ones:
t d s n > ts dz ʃ ɲ/ _{i,j}
k ɡ > q ɢ > h ɦ / _{+back} # g never seems to occur word-initially before a back vowel
p t c k tʃ > b d ɟ ɡ~ɢ dʒ > β ð ʝ ɣ~ɦ ʒ > v z j ɦ~h ʒ / V_V # ɦ is the intervocalic allophone of h
b d ɟ ɡ > β ɾ ʝ ɣ~ʁ > v r j v~j~0 / V_
some b > p > f /#_

i y u ɯ > ɪ ʏ ʊ ɤ
iː yː uː ɯː > i y u ɯ
ɤ > ɪ/_{t,d,s,z,n}; ɯ / _{C{j,+high},+palatal,+alveopalatal}; a / _Ca(ː); ʊ otherwise
a e o ø > ɑ ɛ ɔ œ
aː eː oː øː > a(partially) e o ø
ɪj(ɪ) ʊ{v,ɣ})(ʊ) ʏ{v,j}(ʏ) > iː uː yː
ɪv > yː
ɪ ʏ ʊ ɤ > e ø o ə
mp nt ŋk ntʃ > mb nd ŋɡ ɲɟ > b d ɡ ɟ
ɣ > v / _{+round}; j / _{-round, +front}
Vɣ > Vː
Cː > C
{m,ŋ} > n /_t
k > 0 / {r,l}_

ɯ > i
ɔ œ ø > va vɛ ve/ #_
{e,ɛ}v {ɑ,o}v > øː oː
{u}v {y}v > uː yː
{ɑ,ɔ} > ɒ (short only)
j > ɟ / #_
kj > c / #_
bj > z
œ > ɛ
Ø > ɡ / ŋ_
nl > ɲː
Last edited by Zythros Jubi on 31 Oct 2019 04:08, edited 1 time in total.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

dva_arla
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Re: How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by dva_arla » 30 Oct 2019 18:29

Cool! Where did you get the sound changes for Turkic and Uralic, by the way?

Anyway, if you haven't discovered it yet, I'd recommend a chapter from a book/journal whose name I forgot : Sammallahti, Pekka (1988) “Historical phonology of the Uralic languages with. special reference to Samoyed, Ugric, and Permic”. I have the pdf, however I can't seem to share pdf attachments in forums. How does one do that?

Zythros Jubi
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Re: How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 31 Oct 2019 04:01

dva_arla wrote:
30 Oct 2019 18:29
Cool! Where did you get the sound changes for Turkic and Uralic, by the way?

Anyway, if you haven't discovered it yet, I'd recommend a chapter from a book/journal whose name I forgot : Sammallahti, Pekka (1988) “Historical phonology of the Uralic languages with. special reference to Samoyed, Ugric, and Permic”. I have the pdf, however I can't seem to share pdf attachments in forums. How does one do that?
Well, as for Hungarian diachronics, I got them from http://www.kneequickie.com/kq/TCL/Uralic, but it seems that it's incomplete. Judging from etymology listed on Wiktionary, Hungarian sound changes appear to be full of exceptions and irregularities. The origin of long vowels remain mysterious, especially in Turkic roots.

Chuvash sound changes, when it comes to vocalism, is also full of irregularities IMHO.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

Zythros Jubi
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Posts: 380
Joined: 24 Nov 2014 17:31

Re: How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 04 Nov 2019 15:38

Maybe I should start a Scratchpad in Conlang section instead?
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

dva_arla
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Re: How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by dva_arla » 11 Nov 2019 15:39

Why not?

Zythros Jubi
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Re: How to make an R-Turkic language?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 13 Nov 2019 09:24

Details of diachronics is pretty much undecided; espcially when it comes to loanwords, it is difficult to determine what sound changes should this stratum of loanwords should take (e.g. Middle High German, Old East Slavic, Cuman).
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

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