Nortsääenglisch

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by shimobaatar » 03 Nov 2018 04:18

spanick wrote:
08 Oct 2018 20:46
For the like two people who were following this, sorry for my absence. New job, second kid...I've been busy. I do intend to keep working on this project.
No need to apologize! Congratulations!
spanick wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:16
Nortsääenglisch follows what is known as the “Northern Subject Rule” meaning that present tense verbs are conjugated differently depending on whether there is an adjacent pronoun.
Oh, interesting! Is this a phenomenon found in any natlangs, or is this a unique feature of Nortsääenglisch?
spanick wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:16
Note how in the first example, both verbs take the plural ending –es but in the second example the verb immediately adjacent to the pronoun is marked is –e while the verb disconnected from the pronoun still takes the –es ending.
Wow, so pronouns have to be adjacent as in directly adjacent? I had, for some reason, assumed that just having a pronoun in the same sentence would call for the pronoun-adjacent endings.

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 03 Nov 2018 18:10

shimobaatar wrote:
03 Nov 2018 04:18
spanick wrote:
08 Oct 2018 20:46
For the like two people who were following this, sorry for my absence. New job, second kid...I've been busy. I do intend to keep working on this project.
No need to apologize! Congratulations!
Thanks!
spanick wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:16
Nortsääenglisch follows what is known as the “Northern Subject Rule” meaning that present tense verbs are conjugated differently depending on whether there is an adjacent pronoun.
Oh, interesting! Is this a phenomenon found in any natlangs, or is this a unique feature of Nortsääenglisch?
It was a feature of Northern dialects of late Old English into Middle English. I'm not sure if any living languages exhibit this.
spanick wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:16
Note how in the first example, both verbs take the plural ending –es but in the second example the verb immediately adjacent to the pronoun is marked is –e while the verb disconnected from the pronoun still takes the –es ending.
Wow, so pronouns have to be adjacent as in directly adjacent? I had, for some reason, assumed that just having a pronoun in the same sentence would call for the pronoun-adjacent endings.
That's right. I kinda figured that assumption would be made, which is why I made that example haha

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 13 Nov 2018 00:22

Continuative/Progressive Aspect

Nortsääenglisch marks the progressive primarily in two main ways.

1) the first method, which is very common in all dialects is to use züü “to be” followed by on/an dät followed by a gerund of the main verb. The gerundial ending is -en.

Ex: Ik öm an dät wreiten. “I am writing”

2) the second method, which which most commonly found in the eastern dialects uses various positional verbs followed by töö “to” followed by the Infinitive.

Ex:
Ik zit töö vreite. “I’m writing” (Lit. I sit to write)
Ik stann töö beide. “I’m waiting” (Lit. I stand to wait)
Ik lei töö sliipe. “I’m sleeping” (Lit. I lay to sleep)
Last edited by spanick on 15 Apr 2019 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 13 Nov 2018 20:04

Continuative/Progressive Aspect (Cont.)
Both of the aforementioned methods are transparently influenced by Dutch. Those familiar with this construction may have noticed that I didn't include an equivalent verb for Dutch lopen. In Nortsääenglisch, the cognate to lopen is lääpe "jump" and is not used for this purpose. Instead, the verb gange "to go, walk" is used. Using lääpe instead of gange is a good way to make yourself seem like an outsider as it's most often used by native Dutch speakers or foreigners who have more familiarity with Dutch.

Ex: Ik gaa töö zwime. "I'm swimming" (Lit. I go to swim)

The progressive can also be made past tense by making the auxiliary verb past, regardless of the method:
1. Ik wäs an dät wreiten. "I was writing."
2. Ik zät töö vreite. "I was writing."


The going-to Future
The reason I wanted to separate the progressive use of gange as an auxiliary is because it is very similar to the going-to future. This functions much like English and Dutch and uses gange followed by the infinitive.
Ex:
Ik gaa vreite. "I'm going to write."
Ik gaa gange. "I'm going to go."

This is another construction which is difficult for foreigners, particularly English speakers, becasue of its similarity to the progressive forms and the similarity to the English going-to future.

Example Conjugations
Below, I want to show the full conjugations of three common, irregular verbs: züü "to be"; habe "to have"; and gange "to go"

Infinitive: züü
Past Participle: wese
Present Participle: wesenn

Present (S/P)
1 öm/zinn
2 ärt/zinn
3 is/zinn

Past (S/P)
1 wäs/wäärs
2 wäär/wäärs
3 wäs/wäärs

Infinitive: hawe
Past Participle: had
Present Participle: hawenn

Present (S/P)
1 haw/hawes
2 hast/hawes
3 hat/hawes

Past (S/P)
1 had/hades
2 hadest/hades
3 had/hades

Infinitive: gange
Past Participle: gange
Present Participle: gangenn

Present (S/P)
1 gaa/ganges
2 gääst/ganges
3 gääd/ganges

Past (S/P)
1 güünng/güünges
2 güüngest/güünges
3 güünng/güünges
Last edited by spanick on 15 Apr 2019 23:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by shimobaatar » 03 Jan 2019 04:08

spanick wrote:
13 Nov 2018 00:22
1) the first method, which is very common in all dialects is to use züü “to be” followed by on/an dät followed by a gerund of the main verb. The gerundial ending is -en.
Spoiler:
Ex: Ik öm an dät wreiten. “I am writing”
2) the second method, which which most commonly found in the eastern dialects uses various positional verbs followed by töö “to” followed by the Infinitive.
Spoiler:
Ex:
Ik zit töö vreite. “I’m writing” (Lit. I sit to write)
Ik stann töö beide. “I’m waiting” (Lit. I stand to wait)
Ik lei töö sliipe. “I’m sleeping” (Lit. I lay to sleep)
I really like the way the examples sound, if I haven't said so before.

Just to clarify, the first method is found in all dialects, even those that use the second method?

Regarding the second method, can speakers choose which positional verb to use on a case by case basis, or is there a set positional verb used to form the progressive of any given verb? For example, is "sit" always used with "to write", or, if someone were standing while writing, could they say something like "Ik stann töö vreite"?

Also, is there a reason it's "Ik öm an dät wreiten" but "Ik zit töö vreite" (emphasis mine)? Is this an indication of a dialectal difference between a variety of the language that exclusively uses the first method and one that also uses the second?
spanick wrote:
13 Nov 2018 20:04
The going-to Future
The reason I wanted to separate the progressive use of gange as an auxiliary is because it is very similar to the going-to future. This functions much like English and Dutch and uses gange followed by the infinitive.
Ex:
Ik gaa vreite. "I'm going to write."
Ik gaa gange. "I'm going to go."

This is another construction which is difficult for foreigners, particularly English speakers, becasue of its similarity to the progressive forms and the similarity to the English going-to future.
Oh, so the only difference is the use of "töö"?
spanick wrote:
13 Nov 2018 20:04
Example Conjugations
Below, I want to show the full conjugations of three common, irregular verbs: züü "to be"; habe "to have"; and gange "to go"
Looks good!

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 03 Jan 2019 05:40

shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 04:08
I really like the way the examples sound, if I haven't said so before.
Thank you. I'm very pleased with the aesthetic of Nortsääenglisch.
Just to clarify, the first method is found in all dialects, even those that use the second method?
Yeah. Like in the western dialects you'd hear like 90% method 1 and 10% method 2 but in the east it's more like 30/70.
Regarding the second method, can speakers choose which positional verb to use on a case by case basis, or is there a set positional verb used to form the progressive of any given verb? For example, is "sit" always used with "to write", or, if someone were standing while writing, could they say something like "Ik stann töö vreite"?
Technically yes, but mostly no. Most verbs have an associated positional verb that commonly goes with them. Even if another verb could work, the verb most associated with it would be used. For example, you'd get funny looms for saying "Ik lei töö vreite" even though you could theoretically be lying down and writinf.
Also, is there a reason it's "Ik öm an dät wreiten" but "Ik zit töö vreite" (emphasis mine)? Is this an indication of a dialectal difference between a variety of the language that exclusively uses the first method and one that also uses the second?
Not particularly. I just like to emphasize the non-standardized orthography by being inconsistent in my own posts.
Oh, so the only difference is the use of "töö"?
Yep. That's another thing that makes it killer for outsiders.

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 15 Apr 2019 21:41

I've been wanting to rework Nortsääenglisch a little bit. Particularly, I've come to believe that the current Orthography is too German influenced. I hope this Orthography will have the aesthetic of a heavy dose of Middle English/Early Scots with West Frisian. I've also made a couple tweaks to the grammar in attempt to stick closer to the idea that Nortsääenglisch derives from Northern dialects of Late Old English/Early Middle English. Finally, this language will be referred to as Weddisch /vɛdɪʃ/. The language is named for the Wadden Sea, along which the speakers are spread.

Orthography

Consonants
/p t k b d g/ <p t k b d g>
/f s~z ʃ~ʒ h~x v/ <f s sch h~ch v~w>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/mː nː ŋː/ <mm nn nng>
/l/ <l>
/r/ <r>

Short Vowels
/ɪ ʏ ʊ/ <i ú u>
/ɛ œ ə ɔ/ <e ó e o>
/a/ <a>

Long Vowels
/iː yː uː/ <ie~i úe~ú uu~u
/ɛː øː ɔː/ <ea~e óe~ó oo~o>
/aː/ <aa~a>

Diphthongs
/ɛɪ œʏ/ <ey~y ui~uy>
/iʊ ɛʊ oʊ/ <iu~iw eu~ew ou~ow
/aʊ/ <au~aw>

Notes:
Short vowels are written as a single vowel followed by a single consonant in a closed syllable or doubled consonants in an open syllable.
Ex: schip /ʒɪp/ "ship" but schippe /ʒɪpə/ "ships"

Long vowels are written as a single vowel in an open syllable. In closed syllables, the vowel is always written double.
Ex: baan /baːn/ "bone" but bane /baːnə/ "bones"

There are some exceptions to this, such as many pronouns which are by convention written in the long form.
Diphthongs variants ending with <w, y> are only written word finally.
<y> is the exception and can be written word-internally.
<y> is pronounced /iː/ word finally

A slightly longer comparative example taken from an earlier post:
Old Orthography: Daa auden men etes dät brääd ann drinkes dät büür.
New Orthography: Da auden men ettes det bread ann drinkes det búer.

Old: Ik öm an dät wreiten.
New: Ik am an det wryten.

Old: Hei zäide, “Wij zinn an dät cinema gangen.”
New: Dey seide, "Wie sinn an det cinema gangen."

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by Ælfwine » 15 Apr 2019 23:03

To be honest, I liked the old orthography better.
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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 16 Apr 2019 01:41

A couple other changes:
1. The continuative/progressive is only formed by the construction súe an det + gerund
2. The conjugation of the verb súe "to be" has been modified slightly, aside from the spelling conventions the first and second person singular are now am and art, respectively. This change was made to reflect the dialect represented in the Lindesfarne Gospels.

Plural Morphology
In general, the plural morphology is largely the same. The possible endings are still -(e)s, -e, -(e)n, -(e)r, umlaut, and null as well as irregular combinations. However, the treatment of -e has changed somewhat. All words which end in a voiceless fricative and which take -e in the plural realize this ending only as a change in voicing of the final consonant and the final schwa goes unpronounced. Through analogy, this has become the default ending for most words ending in a voiceless fricative.

Ex:
visch /vɪʃ/ "fish"
vische /vɪʒ/ "fishes"

wyf /vɛɪf/ "woman"
wyve /vɛɪv/

This also affects words which historically ended in an inter-dental fricative even though they are now pronounced as stops but it does not affect words which did not historically end in an inter-dental fricative.

Ex:
muut /muːt/ "mouth"
mude /muːd/ "mouths"

but

baat /baːt/ "boat"
bate /baːtə/ "boats"

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by Herra Ratatoskr » 16 Apr 2019 02:56

I like the new orthography; it seems much more appropriate for the region its in. The accent to mark front rounded vowels feels a bit odd, but that's the only head turner I saw.

I also dig the plural rules you've got. I'm a fan of those sorts of stem modification as inflection things, and had actually put some of them into West Saxon as well. Are there any things like that with the verbs?

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 16 Apr 2019 16:43

Herra Ratatoskr wrote:
16 Apr 2019 02:56
I like the new orthography; it seems much more appropriate for the region its in.
Thanks, that's what I was going for.
The accent to mark front rounded vowels feels a bit odd, but that's the only head turner I saw.
Yeah, I'm not entirely happy with it. Western Frisian uses the accent to mark /y/ so I ran with that. I'm still toying with how to handle the front rounded vowels orthographically. The problem is that Frisian, Dutch and Scots all use <eu> to mark /øː/ which looks good but it doesn't help with /ø ʏ yː/ and I'm already using <eu> for /ɛʊ/. This leaves me with a few options:
1. Merge /ɛʊ/ into /iʊ/ and use <eu> for /øː/.
2. Merge /ɛʊ/ into /øː/.
3. Merge /ɛʊ/ into /ø/ and /iʊ/ into /ʏ/ and come up with trigraphs for the long variants (<eue> and <iue>).
4. Use diacritics

The problems with (1) and (2) are that I kinda like the phonology as it is and neither solves what to do about /ø ʏ yː/. I already merged /e/ into /ɛ/ when devising the new orthography and kinda regret it. (3) is ok but the I lose two diphthongs and just gain a ton more front rounded vowels. So, I feel kinda stuck with (4) while also trying to avoid diaereses. Input is welcome.
I also dig the plural rules you've got. I'm a fan of those sorts of stem modification as inflection things, and had actually put some of them into West Saxon as well. Are there any things like that with the verbs?
Thanks, I also like these stem modification things for morphology, whether it be consonant mutations or vowel changes like in West Saxon. As for verbs, that's an issue I'm still considering. An example will help illustrate what I've debating before I put it into words:

Infinitive ryse
Past Participle rise
Present Participle rysenn

Personal Endings - Present Tense
S/P
1 rys/ryses
2 rysest, ryst/ryses
3 ryses, rys/ryes

Pronoun-Adjacent
1 rys/ryse
2 rysest, ryst /ryse
3 rys/ryse

Personal Endings - Past Tense (Strong)
S/P
1 raas/rases
2 rasest, raast/rases
3 raas/rases

Pronoun-Adjacent
1 raas/rase
2 rasest, raast /rase
3 raas/rase

In this example, the bolded forms would be pronounced with a final /s/ rather than /z/ which is used throughout the paradigm. (edited after posting into a list)/ So, again I have a few options:
1. I can do what English did and level the whole thing to /z/ and tag on a dummy <-e> which is unpronouned by affects the pronunciation of <s>.
2. Change nothing.
3. Change nothing but have the pronoun adjacent plural endings be dummy <-e> and only affect pronunciation of <s>.

I'm kinda leaning towards (3). (1) is just no fun.

Some confusion is added here because the vowel of the past participle is short, not long but its spelling makes it look long and if I spelled it <risse> it makes the consonants look devoiced, which of course it very well could be. Decisions, decisions...

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 18 Apr 2019 00:05

Passive Voice
Somehow, I managed to neglect this topic previously.

In short, the passive is formed by a conjugated form of wórde "to become" plus the past participle of the main verb. A full conjugation of wórde is below. When the agent is needed, it is indicated by the preposition vram for animate nouns and durch for inanimate nouns.


Infinitive wórde
Past Participle wórdenn
Present Participle worde

Present Tense
S/P
1 wórt/wórdes
2 wúrst/wórdes
3 wúrts/wórdes

Past Tense
S/P
1 wert/werdes
2 werst/werdes
3 wert/werdes

Ex:
Det ey wórts vram de knev ette. "The egg is eaten by the boy."
Hie wert durch aan staan slagge. "He was killed by a stone."

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by Zé do Rock » 12 May 2019 15:35

METAPLATT

Ik muk a farrad-tur üm Düütshland, langs de grenz un daglig dat land wesseln. Ik shreev en bok över de reis, un dat is faken shrievt in de lokale dialekt vun de region wo ik jüst reis (int bok). In Norddüütshland muss ik up plattdüütsh shriven, aver dat is nich maklig, bi de mennig varianten - uplest dat gat vun de hollanshe bit to de polnshe grenz. So beslut ik en metaplatt to mak, wo de wör dör de fakenheid in de fele dialekten, kortheid un 'logik' ermiddelt wart (in de transfer vun hoogdüütsh to platdüütsh).

Dat is nich wid vun nortsääenglish:

Det ey wórts vram de knev ette. "The egg is eaten by the boy." -
Dat ei wart vun de jung eet. (or beter: de jung ot dat ei)

Hie wert durch aan staan slagge. "He was killed by a stone."
He wurt vun en steen doodmaakt.
(un wenn dat "beaten by a stone" wer, wer dat:
He wurt vun en steen slat.)



ENGLISH

I made a cycle-tour around Germany, following the border and changing the country several times a day. I wrote a book about it, and it is often written in the local dialect of the region i'm travelling thru (in the book). In Northern Germany i had to write in plattdüütsch, but it is not easy, given the many variants - after all it goes from the dutch till the polish border. So i decided to make a metaplatt, where words are determined by frequency in the many dialects, brevity and "logic" (in the transfer from hochdeutsch to plattdeutsch).

It is not very far from nortsääenglish:

Det ey wórts vram de knev ette. "The egg is eaten by the boy." -
Dat ei wart vun de jung eet. (or better: de jung ot dat ei)

Hie wert durch aan staan slagge. "He was killed by a stone."
He wurt vun en steen doodmaakt.
(and if it was "beaten by a stone" it would be:
He wurt vun en steen slat.)

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Re: Nortsääenglisch

Post by spanick » 14 May 2019 16:42

Zé do Rock wrote:
12 May 2019 15:35
METAPLATT

Ik muk a farrad-tur üm Düütshland, langs de grenz un daglig dat land wesseln. Ik shreev en bok över de reis, un dat is faken shrievt in de lokale dialekt vun de region wo ik jüst reis (int bok). In Norddüütshland muss ik up plattdüütsh shriven, aver dat is nich maklig, bi de mennig varianten - uplest dat gat vun de hollanshe bit to de polnshe grenz. So beslut ik en metaplatt to mak, wo de wör dör de fakenheid in de fele dialekten, kortheid un 'logik' ermiddelt wart (in de transfer vun hoogdüütsh to platdüütsh).

Dat is nich wid vun nortsääenglish:

Det ey wórts vram de knev ette. "The egg is eaten by the boy." -
Dat ei wart vun de jung eet. (or beter: de jung ot dat ei)

Hie wert durch aan staan slagge. "He was killed by a stone."
He wurt vun en steen doodmaakt.
(un wenn dat "beaten by a stone" wer, wer dat:
He wurt vun en steen slat.)
Je, dey sinn saar meenly understandly!
Yes, they are very mutually intelligible!

"de jung ot dat ei" is "De knev it det ey."

"He wurt vun en steen slat." is "He wert durch aan staan beslagge."
NB: "slee" meens annveld "to kill" ann "beslee" meens "to beat"

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