Yay or Nay?

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Click
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Click » 15 Mar 2014 22:59

A quick writeup on Kyekki applicatives arisen from a quick bout of inspiration.

Applicative constructions are periphrastic – they are marked with auxiliaries located to the left of the adverbial complex, which is itself to the left of the clause-final verb.

Bases from which applicatives are formed can be either transitive or intransitive, as in most languages with applicative constructions.

They promote an oblique to the direct object, especially in cases where it is topicalised or otherwise given importance. The promoted oblique can have one of three oblique semantic roles – beneficiary, locative and instrument. The locative is further subdivided into origin, locus and goal, which respectively correspond to the traditional definitions of ablative, locative and vialis, and allative cases.

Yay or nay?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by cromulant » 16 Mar 2014 17:26

That sounds incredibly alright. What aspect of that system specifically are you having doubts about?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Click » 16 Mar 2014 17:32

The main reason I asked that was to check if I get how applicatives work.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Click » 16 Mar 2014 20:09

I am working on a descendant of one conlang of mine, and several interesting ideas popped into my head while I was being outside today.

Firstly, the language loses the ancestral polypersonal agreement system and replaces it with a new one which marks subject person and transitivity, so there are two sets of personal endings for each tense now – one used with transitive verbs and another one used with intransitive ones.
The transitive set originates from ancestral person affixes marking the subject acting on a third-person object¹ and the intransitive set likewise originates from ancestor’s person affixes marking only the subject that narrowed to marking intransitive verbs.

The intransitive set later extends to nouns where it marks possession, replacing the ancestral system of distinct possessive prefixes.

Yay or nay?
  • ¹ The language doesn’t distinguish between singular and plural with third person arguments.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Boehijt » 17 Mar 2014 11:13

Should I change ɸ to hʷ or xʷ in an inventory of:
/p t c k b d ɟ g ts tɕ dz dʑ ɸ s z ɕ ʑ ç h m n ŋ r l ʋ w j/

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 17 Mar 2014 13:26

Boehijt wrote:Should I change ɸ to hʷ or xʷ in an inventory of:
/p t c k b d ɟ g ts tɕ dz dʑ ɸ s z ɕ ʑ ç h m n ŋ r l ʋ w j/
It's certainly a bit lonely there on its own without a /β/ while all other coronal and labial stops, fricatives and affricates have voiced counterparts. You could invent an historical explanation, of course.

My advice would be to add /β/ or go for /hʷ~xʷ/ which patterns neatly with /w/ reinforced by the pair /ç j/ but as you can probably tell by now, I'm a sucker for symmetry which is not always a good thing. :roll:

So my vote is Yea.
Last edited by DesEsseintes on 18 Mar 2014 05:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 18 Mar 2014 05:18

Consulting my Phonology Chart:
Image

1) Plausible to add /ɣ/ but not /ʁ/? Currently I have it as an allophone.
2) Should I make /ʧ ʤ/ and [ʨ ʥ] become /ʧ~ʨ/ and /ʤ~ʥ/?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Click » 18 Mar 2014 14:06

  1. Why not? Most languages with /ɡ/ don’t have phonemic [ɢ].
  2. Only if [tʃ] varies with [tɕ] everywhere.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Egerius » 18 Mar 2014 14:24

Boehijt wrote:Should I change ɸ to hʷ or xʷ in an inventory of:
/p t c k b d ɟ g ts tɕ dz dʑ ɸ s z ɕ ʑ ç h m n ŋ r l ʋ w j/
I'd vote for no, since [ɸ] could come in for <f> - and there is no [f] in your phonetic inventory (which also was the case in 11th century Spanish Castilian).
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Prinsessa » 19 Mar 2014 07:01

why are there no pharyngeals in this thread

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 19 Mar 2014 07:43

Skógvur wrote:why are there no pharyngeals in this thread
They absconded with the retroflexes perhaps?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 19 Mar 2014 17:58

DesEsseintes wrote:
Skógvur wrote:Why are there no pharyngeals in this thread?
They absconded with the retroflexes perhaps?
And where did the sexy linguo-supercilials go?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Click » 19 Mar 2014 19:05

What about quadrilabials?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by greatbuddha » 19 Mar 2014 21:54

Do sound changes where a final vowel is metathesized with a final consonant ever happen?
/hali/ to /hail/
/halu/ to /haul/
/tæmi/ to /te:n/
or final stops to fricatives
/kut/ to /kus/
/kud/ to /kuz/
/tlak/ to /tlah/
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Micamo » 19 Mar 2014 22:53

greatbuddha wrote:Do sound changes where a final vowel is metathesized with a final consonant ever happen?
/hali/ to /hail/
/halu/ to /haul/
/tæmi/ to /te:n/
I don't know: It's definitely possible for a change like hali > hail to occur through vowel assimilation though (this is how ablaut-based verb inflection evolves in most cases).
or final stops to fricatives
/kut/ to /kus/
/kud/ to /kuz/
/tlak/ to /tlah/
Yes.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 20 Mar 2014 01:19

Micamo wrote:
greatbuddha wrote:Do sound changes where a final vowel is metathesized with a final consonant ever happen?
/hali/ to /hail/
/halu/ to /haul/
/tæmi/ to /te:n/
I don't know: It's definitely possible for a change like hali > hail to occur through vowel assimilation though (this is how ablaut-based verb inflection evolves in most cases).
/foti/ to /fi:t/ isn't quite what greatbuddha asked for, but maybe it's something s/he'd be interested in.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Chagen » 21 Mar 2014 15:30

I'm thinking about having Sunbyaku person suffixes for verbs be voiced when after a root that ends in a voiceless consonant.

Right now, it's like this:

ikuji:I play
ikuta: you play
ikusu: he/she/it plays

habuji: I make a speech
habuta: you make a speech
habusu: he/she/it makes a speech

With this change:

ikuji:I play
ikuda: you play
ikuzu: he/she/it plays

habuchi: I make a speech
habuta: you make a speech
habusu: he/she/it makes a speech
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 25 Mar 2014 16:59

Think I should have an infinitive construct and infinitive absolute for my 3con root language?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 25 Mar 2014 19:00

Ahzoh wrote:Think I should have an infinitive construct and infinitive absolute for my 3con root language?
I think both are possible, and FAIK both are attested in natlangs. Whether you "should" have them is up to you. I see uses for them; OTOH you could probably get along without them.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by quadrilabial » 27 Mar 2014 15:35

1) A system where the 'origo' of spacial deixis is always (at least) person-marked and spacial deictic terms are built into the pronoun system. To parse that back out of jargon, if a term indicates a position relative to someone or something, this hypothetical language obligatorily marks the someone or something in question. So, in English, if two people are on different sides of a thing, saying that some feature of the thing is on 'the left' is ambiguous, and often one will specify 'my left' or 'your left'. In this language, that specification would be obligatory; there would be no word 'left' whose reference point was unspecified, i.e. which could refer to 'my left', 'your left', 'her left', etc. Similarly, 'there' and 'here' and 'that' and 'this' all indicate proximity or distance to... something, usually but not always the speaker. In this system, there'd be words meaning 'a location distal relative to me' and 'a location distal relative to him' that would, between them, cover the spacial meanings of 'there', and so on for the other distal/proximal pairs. The set of possible 'origos' would be however many distinctions the personal pronouns make.

2) On a tangent from the first thought, a language that has two locatives- one proximal, one distal. Rome-PLOC would mean 'at' or 'near Rome' and Rome-DLOC would mean 'far from Rome'.
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