Yay or Nay?

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Ælfwine
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 14 Aug 2017 17:26

Ashtâr Balînestyâr wrote:But the Portuguese option isn’t preserving Latin anything. It’s an enclitic pronoun placed before an auxiliary verb that was later grammaticalized as a future marker. Using Portuguese itself as a mock up:

tē amō > te amo > təm
tē amāvī > te amei > tme
tē amābam > te amava > tmau
amāre tē habeo > amar-te-ei > mate
amāre tē habēbam > amar-te-ia > matia

illam amās > a amas > amʃ
illam amāvisti > a amaste > amaʃ
illam amābās > a amavas > amauʃ
amāre illam habēs > amá-la-as > malaʃ
amāre illam habēbās > amá-la-ias > maliaʃ

That said, enclitics in the present, imperfect and preterite usually follow the verb in European Portuguese, but they can come before it in certain circumstances.
I like the Portuguese infected option very much. Maybe though I'll change it to match the phonotactics of Northeastern Iberia better though, or otherwise differentiate it:

te amo > t'amo [ta'mo]
te amai > t'ame [ta'me]
te amavi > t'amau [ta'mau]

etc.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by opipik » 14 Aug 2017 19:03

qwed117 wrote:Two questions. They're both relevant to the proto-lang I've shown on the random phonology thread.
First, should I limit consonantal monosyllables to the resonants (m, mh, n, nh, ñ, ñh, r, l, y, w)? And should I include fricatives as well?
I'd say leave it as it is.

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 18 Aug 2017 04:10

loglorn wrote:I don't think i had ever heard "This anadew feels more realistic than this one" before.
Isn't it sort of motivated by the same feeling that makes people say stuff like:
"If Tariana were a conlang, everyone would be saying how unrealistic and unnaturalistic a kitchen-sink conlang it is",
or
"Some conlanger must have just made up the idea of 3Cons (tri-consonantal or tri-literal root or verb-root languages)"?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 18 Aug 2017 04:15

eldin raigmore wrote:
loglorn wrote:I don't think i had ever heard "This anadew feels more realistic than this one" before.
Isn't it sort of motivated by the same feeling that makes people say stuff like:
"If Tariana were a conlang, everyone would be saying how unrealistic and unnaturalistic a kitchen-sink conlang it is",
or
"Some conlanger must have just made up the idea of 3Cons (tri-consonantal or tri-literal root or verb-root languages)"?
Well, that's not what I was trying to say, so, in this instance at least, it wasn't motivated by anything. loglorn was interpreting something I said before I realized I'd misunderstood something.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Iyionaku » 18 Aug 2017 10:02

eldin raigmore wrote:
loglorn wrote:I don't think i had ever heard "This anadew feels more realistic than this one" before.
Isn't it sort of motivated by the same feeling that makes people say stuff like:
"If Tariana were a conlang, everyone would be saying how unrealistic and unnaturalistic a kitchen-sink conlang it is",
or
"Some conlanger must have just made up the idea of 3Cons (tri-consonantal or tri-literal root or verb-root languages)"?
What's so "unnaturalistic" about Tariana? Complex, yes, but unnaturalistic?
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 23 Aug 2017 17:53

Here's something I'm thinking about in my conlang TLFKAT.

The maximal coda of a TLFKAT syllable is RCR where R is any non-vocalic continuant (such as /n l s ɬ x/ etc.) and the final CR is realised as an affricate (where the R assimilates to the PoA of the preceding C). Examples then of viable codas are things like st͡s xt͡ɬ lk͡ʟ̝̊ and so on.

Now, TLFKAT dislikes two continuants occurring in succession and generally the second continuant undergoes fortition to a corresponding affricate in such environments:

as + ła → astła
, etc.

Now, in my original conception I also thought an affricate followed by a continuant would have a similar effect, so that for example:

ats + ła → atstła


But now I'm wondering whether it would be nicer if continuants were allowed to occur, unmolested, after an affricate coda in the preceding syllable, like so:

ats + ła → atsła


This would result in voiced segments being allowed to occur after unvoiced affricates, too:

atł + la → atłla


Here's an example with a maximal coda:

arqł + na → arqłna


Is that too inconsistent/weird?

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loglorn
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by loglorn » 24 Aug 2017 00:27

I much prefer the old one with fortition. So Nay.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 24 Aug 2017 01:01

Nay
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 24 Aug 2017 03:32

DesEsseintes wrote:Is that too inconsistent/weird?
I don't think it's too inconsistent, nor too weird.
It may be a matter of personal tastes.
If we go by the responders on this thread so far, two out of three prefer fortition, one out of three has no preference.

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 24 Aug 2017 04:35

eldin raigmore wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:Is that too inconsistent/weird?
I don't think it's too inconsistent, nor too weird.
It may be a matter of personal tastes.
If we go by the responders on this thread so far, two out of three prefer fortition, one out of three has no preference.
Thanks, eldin.

[:$] I actually put this in the wrong thread. This should have gone in QQ, because I was more asking about the viability of the continuants undergoing fortition after another comtinuant and not being affected by a preceding affricate rather than an opinion on whether to implement it. My mistake, and my apologies, loglorn and Ælf.

I'm not sure whether to repost this over in QQ.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 24 Aug 2017 05:54

To me the "unmolested" affricates can get sort of...unintuitive phonologically speaking.

For example, in "arqłna" you seem to have what appears to be a sonorant followed by a uvular and then what I recall is a lateral fricative and then another sonorant. There would probably be some sort of simplification going on there, and your earlier fortition rule seems to work.
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loglorn
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by loglorn » 24 Aug 2017 06:09

eldin raigmore wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:Is that too inconsistent/weird?
I don't think it's too inconsistent, nor too weird.
It may be a matter of personal tastes.
If we go by the responders on this thread so far, two out of three prefer fortition, one out of three has no preference.
Yeah i don't think it's inherently inconsistent either not to have fortition there, but i do find the forms that have it much more pleasing.
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alynnidalar
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by alynnidalar » 25 Aug 2017 16:25

Could always throw in some sort of metathesis, if you didn't want to just use the original fortition rule?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Nachtuil » 27 Aug 2017 05:42

I am thinking of allowing double stop consonants in Nexürsin mid vocalically even though current phonotacatics. Currently the phonotactics dissallow stops and affricates in coda, though fricatives, nasals and some aproximants are allowed. So a word like /tas/ is allowed but /sat/ not. Words like /tassa/ are permitted. I am wondering if I should allow words like /satta/ but not words like /sakta/? Yay?
Last edited by Nachtuil on 27 Aug 2017 06:08, edited 1 time in total.

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 27 Aug 2017 05:51

Nachtuil wrote:I am thinking of allowing double stop consonants in Nexürsin mid vocalically even though current phonotacatics. Currently the phonotactics dissallow stops and affricates in coda, though fricatives, nasals and some aproximants are allowed. So a word like /tas/ is allowed but /sat/ not. Words like /tassa/ are permitted. I am wondering if I should allow words like /satta/? Yay?
Gemination can be entirely independent of whether you otherwise allow stop codas, so if the fear of inconsistency is the only thing stopping you from using them, then that's not a problem. Italian has plenty of geminated stops but otherwise avoids coda stops (at least in formal registers).

So yay.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ashtăr Balynestjăr » 27 Aug 2017 07:02

That sounds pretty much exactly like Italian phonotactics, so I say go for it.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Nachtuil » 27 Aug 2017 15:30

Wonderful, thank you guys :) It's funny, how languages which are radically different in some ways can share features like that.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Davush » 29 Aug 2017 13:49

I'm thinking of changing the diphthong inventory of Qutrussan from /ai au eǝ oǝ/ to /ai au ia ua eo oe/. I don't like large amounts of diphthongs in general, but if I expand them, I can have words like 'theom' and 'nuatru' which look nice.

Also, prompted partly by DesEsseintes suggestion of <ă> for /ǝ/, I am thinking of marking the schwa with a breve, but the allophony will also be partially present in the orthography, meaning I can have <ă ĭ ŭ> for /ǝ/ ~ [ǝ~ɐ ɨ ɯ] which might look a bit more varied. I could explain this by Qutrussan scholars deciding it was a short version of the full vowels - maybe similar to the Hebrew extra-short vowels. Even though the schwa does function as a normal full vowel.

Final /ǝ/ always ă: thimúnë ~ thimúnă [θimu:nǝ]
If the previous syllable is <ú u ó>, the schwa will be <ĭ>: úcrën ~ úcrĭn [u:krɨn]
If the previous syllable is <í i é>, the schwa will be <ŭ>: íthmësh ~ íthmŭsh [i:θmɯʃ]

Initial syllables beginning with <p b f v m sh y> have <ŭ>: mëldë ~ mŭldă [mɯldǝ]
All others have <ĭ>: tsëmpëq ~ tsĭmpăq [tsɨmpǝq]

If both syllables have a schwa and the word type is CVC(C)VC, <ĭ> and <ŭ> alternate: mërësh ~ mŭrĭsh [mɯrǝʃ]

Does this seem overly complicated for a single phoneme? I think it might help break up the look of too many breves over one single letter.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Iyionaku » 29 Aug 2017 14:01

Davush wrote:I'm thinking of changing the diphthong inventory of Qutrussan from /ai au eǝ oǝ/ to /ai au ia ua eo oe/. I don't like large amounts of diphthongs in general, but if I expand them, I can have words like 'theom' and 'nuatru' which look nice.

(...)

Does this seem overly complicated for a single phoneme? I think it might help break up the look of too many breves over one single letter.
Just for understanding: ë was the old romanization? Well, I wouldn't say that it's too complicated for a single phoneme. Some languages use up to four symbols for the same phoneme (Thai, for example, although apparently the used symbol somewhat indicates the syllable's tone).
I personally like ă and ŭ very much. ĭ? Not so much. Maybe alternation between ă and ŭ, depending on whether the last vowel was a back vowel or a front vowel?
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 29 Aug 2017 14:22

Davush wrote:Does this seem overly complicated for a single phoneme? I think it might help break up the look of too many breves over one single letter.
I think it looks great and I disagree with iyionaku regarding <ĭ>. Go for it!

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