Yay or Nay?

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Adarain
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Adarain » 11 Jan 2018 11:18

1) Marked absolutive is extremely rare to the point where it was for a long time believed to be virtually impossible. It doesn’t seem to bring with it any advantages either. Also bear in mind that there is a difference between a true marked absolutive (which makes ergative the default case and therefore the one used in, e.g. predicative clauses) and one where the absolutive simply happens to have more morphological material (akin to Icelandic’s “marked nominative”). The latter I would reckon to be perfectly fine, for the former I feel like you need a good justification.

2) If your idea is suppletion, then nay. But I would consider having strict transitivity for every (or almost every) verb, but ways to easily derive between the two. You could have almost only transitive verbs and then have both passive and antipassive voices for derivation; or you could have mostly intransitive verbs with all sorts valence-increasing operations… and of course a few suppletive pairs too, for more common verbs.
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Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
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Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

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Ahzoh
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 11 Jan 2018 13:10

Adarain wrote:
11 Jan 2018 11:18
1) Marked absolutive is extremely rare to the point where it was for a long time believed to be virtually impossible. It doesn’t seem to bring with it any advantages either. Also bear in mind that there is a difference between a true marked absolutive (which makes ergative the default case and therefore the one used in, e.g. predicative clauses) and one where the absolutive simply happens to have more morphological material (akin to Icelandic’s “marked nominative”). The latter I would reckon to be perfectly fine, for the former I feel like you need a good justification.
I have pronouns such as пипа, мих, and џо for which their absolutive forms are пипака, михка, and џока with a -ка suffixed to it. The adjectives and nouns however have overt marking for both the absolutive and ergative but the ergative is treated as the citation form.
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Frislander
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 11 Jan 2018 13:46

One place I can see a marked absolutive working is in a split-ergative system where animate nouns are default ergative due to their high level of agency while inanimates are unmarked for either case.

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Ahzoh
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 11 Jan 2018 14:09

I also have a sort of animacy hierarchy where humans > animate > inanimate.
One place I can see a marked absolutive working is in a split-ergative system where animate nouns are default ergative due to their high level of agency while inanimates are unmarked for either case.
How would the split-erg look?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 11 Jan 2018 18:46

Ahzoh wrote:
11 Jan 2018 14:09
I also have a sort of animacy hierarchy where humans > animate > inanimate.
One place I can see a marked absolutive working is in a split-ergative system where animate nouns are default ergative due to their high level of agency while inanimates are unmarked for either case.
How would the split-erg look?
Like so:

Code: Select all

    "person" "rock"
ERG kana     michi
ABS kanake   michi
kana toka michi
person break rock
The person breaks the rock

michi toka kanake
rock break person-ABS
The rock breaks the person

kanake suku
person-ABS sleep
The person sleeps

Maybe have the pronouns follow accusative alignment to add a further split:

noo toka michi
1s break rock
I break the rock

kana toka nama
person break 1s.ACC
The person breaks me

noo suku
1s sleep
I sleep

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by hoeroathlo » 12 Jan 2018 19:47

A while back I was working on an experiment language not spoken by humans but rather by an alien species of some description that have can produce four tones through four individual orifices. this is as far as I got conceptualizing wise:

Code: Select all

                                                                        ≈         ¼ s    ½ s   1 s   1½ s
                                                                    40 Hz	 ˥-	 ˥	 ˥.	 ˥:
                                                                    80 Hz	 ˦-	 ˦	 ˦.	 ˦:
                                                                  160 Hz	 ˨-	 ˨	 ˨.	 ˨:
                                                                  320 Hz	 ˩-	 ˩	 ˩.	 ˩:

- The rows are referred to as tones
- The columns are the time intervals of the tones
- There can only be a single jump of tone e.g. ˥ to ˨ is allowed but ˥ to ˩ is not allowed
- Multiple tones can be said at once with three normally being the most.
- When one tone is said it’s called a single tone, two tones is a binary tone, and three a tertiary tone.
- Tones are said individually rather than as a continuous stream of sound. unless pronounced together in a binary or tertiary tone
- Brackets are used when more than one tone is being said at once e.g. (˥-˨)
- the individual tones can fluctuate higher or lower depending on the prior said tones (usually ten or so hertz) which are shown by ˦˥(down for 40) ˨˥(down for 80) ˩˨(down for 160) ˩˦(down 320) for a slight dip in tone, or ˥˦(up for 40) ˥˨(up for 80) ˨˩(up for 160) ˦˩(up for 320) and usual occurs with tone jumps e.g. (˥- ˨) ˩ ˦. (without tonal fluctuation) (˥- ˨) ˩ ˨˥. (with tonal fluctuation)


I never got any further than that because I couldn't think of a purpose for stacking tones or changes to tonal length in a way I wanted. I could use them as a way for marking tenses, or even mood, but I wanted it to be more fundamental and unique than that. (also the tones themselves are arbitrary and could change any time as well as their length)

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Creyeditor
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Jan 2018 19:57

Why not have an alien language where only the tones matter and the segments are predictable? Apart from the fixed Hertz (which is really alien) that would make it even more alien.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Fluffy8x » 13 Jan 2018 16:29

Lek-Tsaro had a system wherein there were words not for static colours, but rather colour transitions (i. e. green → blue is a separate root from green or blue). I was wondering if I should carry it to Middle Rymakonian, or replace it with something else.
an siina levian t'isorakateez

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ixals » 24 Jan 2018 01:41

Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
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gestaltist
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 24 Jan 2018 09:15

ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
I vote, keep what you have.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 25 Jan 2018 00:49

ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
For fixed primary stress, IIRC, penultimate is first choice, initial is second choice, and ISTR final is third choice.

Why is what you have now choresome for you?
Spoiler:
Do you now have weight-sensitive primary stress, or what?
Do you have rhythm? If so is it weight-sensitive? If rhythm and primary stress are both weight-sensitive, is "weight" the same for both?
If you have secondary stress but not rhythm, is it "polar" (that is, likely to be close to the opposite end of the word from the primary stress)?
Do you have a different system for verbs from non-verbs?
Or do you have a different system for nouns than for non-nouns?
Or do you have a different system for borrowed words from native words?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 25 Jan 2018 01:18

ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
As much as I like making things easy, I'd say keep the stress unpredictable, if only to help further differentiate the language from the West Slavic branch.

Edit: Post #8989, apparently.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Iyionaku » 25 Jan 2018 11:25

eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
For fixed primary stress, IIRC, penultimate is first choice, initial is second choice, and ISTR final is third choice.

Why is what you have now choresome for you?
Spoiler:
Do you now have weight-sensitive primary stress, or what?
Do you have rhythm? If so is it weight-sensitive? If rhythm and primary stress are both weight-sensitive, is "weight" the same for both?
If you have secondary stress but not rhythm, is it "polar" (that is, likely to be close to the opposite end of the word from the primary stress)?
Do you have a different system for verbs from non-verbs?
Or do you have a different system for nouns than for non-nouns?
Or do you have a different system for borrowed words from native words?
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 25 Jan 2018 17:08

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
The closest I can think of is PIE accent, but that's so complicated and specific you can't really say that one pattern favours one word class over the other. There might be a language out there which behaves like this, but I would first wonder how that situation came about and secondly I wouldn't expect it to be through-going either.

When it comes to tone on the other hand the situation is quite different, but I won't go into it now.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by loglorn » 25 Jan 2018 17:45

Frislander wrote:
25 Jan 2018 17:08
Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
The closest I can think of is PIE accent, but that's so complicated and specific you can't really say that one pattern favours one word class over the other. There might be a language out there which behaves like this, but I would first wonder how that situation came about and secondly I wouldn't expect it to be through-going either.

When it comes to tone on the other hand the situation is quite different, but I won't go into it now.
One could even say English works that way. A large number of Latinate loans have their part of speech distinguished by stress. And I can conceive a few ways that would develop, at least within derivational relationships. A more across the board example will probably prove tricky, but might be possible of you posit a language with, say, an initially closed class of verbs that was subjected to intense language contact, like Japanese and Korean.
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ixals
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ixals » 27 Jan 2018 13:51

eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
Why is what you have now choresome for you?
Cissian's stress is unpredictable and currently the same as Russian's stress. So that's about ten different stress patterns in nouns. There wouldn't be much of an issue with it, if I had enough materials. What's the stress pattern for words that didn't survive in Russian (or Ukrainian)? What's the stress pattern for derivations that don't exist in Russian? Of course, I might make a problem out of this by myself and I could easily assign a random and/or likely stress pattern to these words, but I'd like the language to be as accurate as possible.
eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
Do you now have weight-sensitive primary stress, or what?
Do you have rhythm? If so is it weight-sensitive? If rhythm and primary stress are both weight-sensitive, is "weight" the same for both?
If you have secondary stress but not rhythm, is it "polar" (that is, likely to be close to the opposite end of the word from the primary stress)?
Haven't worked on that in detail yet. It's also not that important for now I'd say.
eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
Do you have a different system for verbs from non-verbs?
Or do you have a different system for nouns than for non-nouns?
Or do you have a different system for borrowed words from native words?
This should give a basic overview I think. Loanwords have fixed stress however. It's only native words that are choresome to me.
shimobaatar wrote:
25 Jan 2018 01:18
As much as I like making things easy, I'd say keep the stress unpredictable, if only to help further differentiate the language from the West Slavic branch.
That's a good point. The stress pattern right now really is what differentiates Cissian from West Slavic the most.

I think I'll keep the unpredictable stress pattern but make it a little bit more regular in some cases.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 27 Jan 2018 17:25

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
All of them do. And there are yet more possible complication that occur in that line.
And there is also the ultimate complexity;
“Each word has its own ‘pattern’; There is no way to generalize between groups of words”.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 27 Jan 2018 17:28

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
All of them do. And there are yet more possible complication that occur in that line.
And there is also the ultimate complexity;
“Each word has its own ‘pattern’; There is no way to generalize between groups of words”.

And by the way thank you for answering my questions!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Keenir » 28 Jan 2018 02:11

For Stoplang, I thought I'd take a page from Babylonian, and only have two numbers (excluding 0s and the base number)

1 - 'uud [ʔu:d]

10 - 'a'u [ʔa.ʔu]

100 - 'a3 [ʔaʒ]

...my question is if I should have a second 1... 'agh [ʔag_h] ?

thoughts?

thank you.
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gestaltist
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 28 Jan 2018 10:37

I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.

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