Yay or Nay?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 17 Oct 2018 17:10

Going by sound alone, I think I like options 1 and 4 the most.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by jimydog000 » 17 Oct 2018 17:40

gach wrote:
09 Oct 2018 14:12
tseren wrote:
08 Oct 2018 19:37
Since pː → pʰ is attested, how likely is the opposite pʰ → pː in an intervocalic environment? Both [pʰ] and [pː] could be viewed as fortis realizations of [p]. Yea or Nay on making them interchangeable intervocalically such that:

p pʰ → f p \ V_V
Maybe, though I'd like to see real world examples of Cʰ > C: to be truly happy with the justification. My preferred development path would still be along the lines of

p > b > β > f
pʰ > p
β > f is pretty rare and strange though.

If your okay with devoicing between consonants (like gach's β > f) you could try:
pʰ > b > bː > pː
p > f

or:
p > f
pʰ > p > pː
But like gach I'd expect pʰ to become f over p.

There is this one rule I found here: http://pbase.phon.chass.ncsu.edu/pattern/4231 . And that's it.

So... nay? Subjectively better option:
pʰ > f \ V_V
p > pː \ V_V[+stress]
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gach » 19 Oct 2018 13:38

jimydog000 wrote:
17 Oct 2018 17:40
β > f is pretty rare and strange though.
You can impose general devoicing of fricatives, though, in which case the change works nicely. Voicing distinction is anyway less common on fricatives than on stops (https://wals.info/feature/4A#2/19.3/152.9), so loosing voicing on fricatives is not out of question.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 03 Jan 2019 02:21

Yay or nay,

Vrkhazhian should have ejective fricatives (that, like all fricatives, tend to affricate word-initially)?

The inventory would look like this:
https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Consonants
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 03 Jan 2019 03:43

I'd vote no.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Omzinesý » 09 Jan 2019 19:25

Ahzoh wrote:
03 Jan 2019 02:21
Yay or nay,

Vrkhazhian should have ejective fricatives (that, like all fricatives, tend to affricate word-initially)?

The inventory would look like this:
https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Consonants
Maybe it could have ejective fricatives as roducts of some morpho-phonological processes, but not on the lexical level.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Jan 2019 01:51

Omzinesý wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:25
Maybe it could have ejective fricatives as roducts of some morpho-phonological processes, but not on the lexical level.
Such as?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Omzinesý » 10 Jan 2019 12:43

Ahzoh wrote:
10 Jan 2019 01:51
Omzinesý wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:25
Maybe it could have ejective fricatives as roducts of some morpho-phonological processes, but not on the lexical level.
Such as?
I have no idea of your language's phonology, but generally, say there is a prefix ending in a glottal stop and a stem starting in a sibilant, they can realize as an ejective sibilant.
/ʔ/ + /s/ => [s']

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 10 Jan 2019 13:29

Omzinesý wrote:
10 Jan 2019 12:43
Ahzoh wrote:
10 Jan 2019 01:51
Omzinesý wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:25
Maybe it could have ejective fricatives as roducts of some morpho-phonological processes, but not on the lexical level.
Such as?
I have no idea of your language's phonology, but generally, say there is a prefix ending in a glottal stop and a stem starting in a sibilant, they can realize as an ejective sibilant.
/ʔ/ + /s/ => [s']
There's some information on the phonology on the page Ahzoh linked to.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 10 Jan 2019 15:20

shimobaatar wrote:
10 Jan 2019 13:29
Omzinesý wrote:
10 Jan 2019 12:43
Ahzoh wrote:
10 Jan 2019 01:51
Omzinesý wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:25
Maybe it could have ejective fricatives as roducts of some morpho-phonological processes, but not on the lexical level.
Such as?
I have no idea of your language's phonology, but generally, say there is a prefix ending in a glottal stop and a stem starting in a sibilant, they can realize as an ejective sibilant.
/ʔ/ + /s/ => [s']
There's some information on the phonology on the page Ahzoh linked to.
And providing it (or the relevant parts) would've constituted basic courtesy when they asked the question...

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 10 Jan 2019 15:22

gestaltist wrote:
10 Jan 2019 15:20
shimobaatar wrote:
10 Jan 2019 13:29
Omzinesý wrote:
10 Jan 2019 12:43
Ahzoh wrote:
10 Jan 2019 01:51
Omzinesý wrote:
09 Jan 2019 19:25
Maybe it could have ejective fricatives as roducts of some morpho-phonological processes, but not on the lexical level.
Such as?
I have no idea of your language's phonology, but generally, say there is a prefix ending in a glottal stop and a stem starting in a sibilant, they can realize as an ejective sibilant.
/ʔ/ + /s/ => [s']
There's some information on the phonology on the page Ahzoh linked to.
And providing it (or the relevant parts) would've constituted basic courtesy when they asked the question...
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’ve said, but Ahzoh did provide that link with the original question on the previous page of this thread.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Jan 2019 17:01

Yes, I did indeed provide a link to the phonology on the original question post. The syllable structure/phonotactics would also be there.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 10 Jan 2019 20:15

My bad then

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by clawgrip » 09 Jun 2019 14:14

I have two language families that occupy the same geographical area in a conworld. Although they are not related, for some reason or another they both form the passive voice through reduplication of the initial syllable of the stem. This was not actually planned, as I think I unconsciously reused the same idea in both languages before I even decided they were going to be in the same location. Examples from two languages from the two different families:

Nandut: pām "he writes" ; bapām "it is written"
Uyendur: ganur "he writes" ; gegnur "it is written"

It was an accident, but I kind of like how they share this unusual feature. Anyway, for various reasons, I have decided it is necessary for there to be a third language or language family that is not related to either of them, in the same location. This language family will not be as prominent and will be an isolate or very small family, one or two languages.

The question is, should I give this language the reduplicated passive as well, as some sort of weird areal thing, or should it just be something unrelated?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 09 Jun 2019 14:52

clawgrip wrote:
09 Jun 2019 14:14
I have two language families that occupy the same geographical area in a conworld. Although they are not related, for some reason or another they both form the passive voice through reduplication of the initial syllable of the stem. This was not actually planned, as I think I unconsciously reused the same idea in both languages before I even decided they were going to be in the same location. Examples from two languages from the two different families:

Nandut: pām "he writes" ; bapām "it is written"
Uyendur: ganur "he writes" ; gegnur "it is written"

It was an accident, but I kind of like how they share this unusual feature. Anyway, for various reasons, I have decided it is necessary for there to be a third language or language family that is not related to either of them, in the same location. This language family will not be as prominent and will be an isolate or very small family, one or two languages.

The question is, should I give this language the reduplicated passive as well, as some sort of weird areal thing, or should it just be something unrelated?
I say 'yay', as an areal feature!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 09 Jun 2019 15:19

felipesnark wrote:
09 Jun 2019 14:52
clawgrip wrote:
09 Jun 2019 14:14
I have two language families that occupy the same geographical area in a conworld. Although they are not related, for some reason or another they both form the passive voice through reduplication of the initial syllable of the stem. This was not actually planned, as I think I unconsciously reused the same idea in both languages before I even decided they were going to be in the same location. Examples from two languages from the two different families:

Nandut: pām "he writes" ; bapām "it is written"
Uyendur: ganur "he writes" ; gegnur "it is written"

It was an accident, but I kind of like how they share this unusual feature. Anyway, for various reasons, I have decided it is necessary for there to be a third language or language family that is not related to either of them, in the same location. This language family will not be as prominent and will be an isolate or very small family, one or two languages.

The question is, should I give this language the reduplicated passive as well, as some sort of weird areal thing, or should it just be something unrelated?
I say 'yay', as an areal feature!
[+1]

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 09 Jun 2019 15:20

Yay here too.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by clawgrip » 09 Jun 2019 16:35

Looks like it's a go, then.

I have been away from here too long. It's nice to see responses from familiar names. Thanks, everyone.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 12 Jun 2019 03:50

Yay or Nay: Crimean Gothic shall have front rounded vowels /ø/ and /y/ from PGmc *eu and *iu respectively.

I'm not sold on having front rounded vowels. Greek and Slavic influence suggests against them, but Crimean Tatar suggests for it. There is also no evidence for front rounded vowels in the corpus (but that doesn't mean CG may not have had it.) Still, I like the faux German look on the romanization (although this will obviously not apply to Cyrillic.)
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Zekoslav » 12 Jun 2019 11:12

When did the Crimean Tatars arrive in Crimea?
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