Yay or Nay?

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spanick
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick » 23 Apr 2018 16:49

Using a derivative of “yarmulke” has the same problem as option (5) in that “yarmulke” is a Yiddish term derived from Slavic sources. Unless you have a large Ashkenazi population, I wouldn’t expect it to be part of the lexicon. Therefor, I’d suggest options (1) or (2).

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor » 23 Apr 2018 23:01

shimobaatar wrote:
23 Apr 2018 16:37
Lao Kou wrote:
23 Apr 2018 13:41
shimobaatar wrote:
21 Apr 2018 18:09
Creyeditor wrote:
21 Apr 2018 14:16
It looks like you prefer option 4) [:D]
What makes you say that?
I haven't really noticed shimo prone to sarcasm, and if the above comment isn't that, I suspect what Creyeditor means is that I stacked the deck/loaded the dice to get the result I wanted in the first place. Perhaps, perhaps not. I was more concerned about stepping into a terminological minefield.
No, that wasn't sarcasm. Creyeditor made it seem like you had made your preference obvious somehow, but I didn't see any indication of that at all, so I was asking for clarification.
Option 4) was the only option that was not listed with a disadvantage. Option 1) distant and cold, option 2) "let's not go there" 3) uncommon 4) duke it out 5) how did it get to the Sea of Japan 6) something else
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Apr 2018 23:41

Creyeditor wrote:
23 Apr 2018 23:01
shimobaatar wrote:
23 Apr 2018 16:37
Lao Kou wrote:
23 Apr 2018 13:41
shimobaatar wrote:
21 Apr 2018 18:09
Creyeditor wrote:
21 Apr 2018 14:16
It looks like you prefer option 4) [:D]
What makes you say that?
I haven't really noticed shimo prone to sarcasm, and if the above comment isn't that, I suspect what Creyeditor means is that I stacked the deck/loaded the dice to get the result I wanted in the first place. Perhaps, perhaps not. I was more concerned about stepping into a terminological minefield.
No, that wasn't sarcasm. Creyeditor made it seem like you had made your preference obvious somehow, but I didn't see any indication of that at all, so I was asking for clarification.
Option 4) was the only option that was not listed with a disadvantage. Option 1) distant and cold, option 2) "let's not go there" 3) uncommon 4) duke it out 5) how did it get to the Sea of Japan 6) something else
Well, it seems like we interpret some things differently. Anyway, this isn't really relevant.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 25 Apr 2018 14:12

Lao Kou wrote:
21 Apr 2018 05:35
In light of recent events, I found myself going to the Géarthnuns dictionary to see if there was a word for what I, as an American goy, would have called a yarmulke. Surprisingly, there is naught. The word bandied about on the news is kippah (כִּיפָּה), which, frankly, I had never heard before.
Interesting difference there; I only knew the word kippah before I arrived on the internet, because kippah is the word used when Judaism is talked about in Religious Education classes in the UK and outside of certain urban areas Jewish culture doesn't really have anything like the presence it has in the popular consciousness of the US. (similarly I had never heard of the word "goy" until I came on the internet; for most of my childhood I only knew the word "gentile").

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick » 26 Apr 2018 19:18

I have a couple ideas for my Romlang Túrnnan that is like to get some opinions on.

1) initially, I didn’t design Túrnnan with a subjunctive because the present subjunctive and present indicative of Latin became identical in Túrnnan. It didn’t take long for me to wish there was some subjunctive so I tried deriving it from the imperfect subjunctive but again the results were blurry. I’m the singular, the forms largely look like the infinitive and in the plural the forms were identical to the future tense.

That gave me this idea: the future tense shifts to the subjunctive and the is replaced by the periphrastic construction of “go + infinitive”. Does this seem reasonable?

2) The speakers of Túrnnan live in Austria and are largely bilingual. Given this, I’d like to incorporate some german syntax, particularly placing the main verb finally in periphrastic constructions and also in subordinate clauses. Thoughts? Am I pushing the realism here?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Fluffy8x » 26 Apr 2018 21:27

Wondering how I should do the joint agent/patient/tense conjugation on verb roots in levian10. For reference, levian10 is a triconsonantal root language in which the consonants of a root can be reördered for inflectional purposes. 75 (5 each for agent/patient [0, 1, 2, 3 prox, 3 obv; number marked elsewhere] × 3 for tense) different forms is quite tedious to do by hand, so perhaps I could delegate the work to a mathematical function. Roots also have a gender in (Z ∩ [-13, 13])3, and right now I don't really have plans for that other than for adjectives and adverbs, but I could factor that into verb conjugation.
an siina levian t'isorakateez

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Apr 2018 22:23

Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 21:27
Wondering how I should do the joint agent/patient/tense conjugation on verb roots in levian10.
Swahili and other Bantu languages prefix the verb with a complex morpheme made up of the follwing sequence:
The agent’s (subject’s) noun-class (fusionally marking both its gender and its grammatical number);
The verb’s tense (maybe in some languages also one or more of its aspect, modality/mode/mood, voice, and/or polarity?);
The patient’s (object’s) noun-class (gender&number).
For reference, levian10 is a triconsonantal root language in which the consonants of a root can be reördered for inflectional purposes.
Really? I thought of that, but was told I could never make it work! I tried and ran into difficulty and decided my lang’s critics were right and gave up!
If you can do it I will be filled with about equal parts curiosity, admiration, and envy!
Show me, please?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Apr 2018 22:26

Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 21:27
Roots also have a gender in (Z ∩ [-13, 13])3, ...
I know what that means!
And I know it also means you’re either a math major or you at least passed Calculus I!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Fluffy8x » 26 Apr 2018 23:29

eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Apr 2018 22:23
Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 21:27
Wondering how I should do the joint agent/patient/tense conjugation on verb roots in levian10.
Swahili and other Bantu languages prefix the verb with a complex morpheme made up of the follwing sequence:
The agent’s (subject’s) noun-class (fusionally marking both its gender and its grammatical number);
The verb’s tense (maybe in some languages also one or more of its aspect, modality/mode/mood, voice, and/or polarity?);
The patient’s (object’s) noun-class (gender&number).
Yeah, I could go with that, but I want to fuse cats in odd combinations.
For reference, levian10 is a triconsonantal root language in which the consonants of a root can be reördered for inflectional purposes.
Really? I thought of that, but was told I could never make it work! I tried and ran into difficulty and decided my lang’s critics were right and gave up!
If you can do it I will be filled with about equal parts curiosity, admiration, and envy!
Show me, please?
All roots in levian10 follow an ordering in which the root abc (translated into a triplet of integers mod 729) satisfies f(a) ≼ f(b) ≼ f(c). f: Z729Z729 is bijective and ≼ is kind of a cyclic less-than-or-equals: pq iff (qp) ≤ 364.

In some degenerate cases, two or more of the consonants could equal each other. This happens only in derived roots, but levian10 has its strategy for resolving this issue.
eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Apr 2018 22:26
Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 21:27
Roots also have a gender in (Z ∩ [-13, 13])3, ...
I know what that means!
And I know it also means you’re either a math major or you at least passed Calculus I!
CS major, but maths minor.

Edit: so far, I've been calling this language by its koznumber, but I've named it ŊþaċaḤa /,ŋθatɬa,xa/.
an siina levian t'isorakateez

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 27 Apr 2018 01:29

spanick wrote:
26 Apr 2018 19:18
I have a couple ideas for my Romlang Túrnnan that is like to get some opinions on.

1) initially, I didn’t design Túrnnan with a subjunctive because the present subjunctive and present indicative of Latin became identical in Túrnnan. It didn’t take long for me to wish there was some subjunctive so I tried deriving it from the imperfect subjunctive but again the results were blurry. I’m the singular, the forms largely look like the infinitive and in the plural the forms were identical to the future tense.

That gave me this idea: the future tense shifts to the subjunctive and the is replaced by the periphrastic construction of “go + infinitive”. Does this seem reasonable?

2) The speakers of Túrnnan live in Austria and are largely bilingual. Given this, I’d like to incorporate some german syntax, particularly placing the main verb finally in periphrastic constructions and also in subordinate clauses. Thoughts? Am I pushing the realism here?
I can't give you much advice about realism/naturalism, I'm afraid, but I do know that future and irrealis moods are and have been conflated in some languages, so I think your idea #1 is interesting.

As for idea #2, it does happen that languages in certain areas can share certain features despite not being derived from the same parent language. I believe that situation can be called a Sprachbund.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick » 27 Apr 2018 05:56

felipesnark wrote:
27 Apr 2018 01:29
I can't give you much advice about realism/naturalism, I'm afraid, but I do know that future and irrealis moods are and have been conflated in some languages, so I think your idea #1 is interesting.
Yeah. Intuitively, I thought that the future was connected to the irrealis but when looking at other Indo-European languages, it seems it’s more strongly connected with the past tense. A little digging turned up that the pluperfect indicative became the conditional in Sicilian and the imperfect subjunctive in Spanish, so I could always use that for the present subjunctive.
As for idea #2, it does happen that languages in certain areas can share certain features despite not being derived from the same parent language. I believe that situation can be called a Sprachbund.
After a little digging, it seems there is some precedent in Romance languages for V2 syntax such as Old French and Romansch, so I’ll probably make this change.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 05 May 2018 06:43

Should I add a set of nasal vowels to Castellan?

Pro:
>Romance languages seem to love them. Portuguese, French, Spanish allophonically and many Italian dialects have them.
>Common Slavic had them.
>I like the way they sound

Con:
>Not an areal feature
>Romanian, my closest neighbor, never developed them, despite strong Slavic influence


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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Lao Kou » 05 May 2018 10:37

Ælfwine wrote:
05 May 2018 06:43
Should I add a set of nasal vowels to Castellan?

Pro:
>Romance languages seem to love them. Portuguese, French, Spanish allophonically and many Italian dialects have them.
>Common Slavic had them.
>I like the way they sound

Con:
>Not an areal feature
>Romanian, my closest neighbor, never developed them, despite strong Slavic influence


Aquincum > Aquęc /ə'ke~k/
It looks like the cons are outnumbered by the pros, the most important of which is that you like the way they sound. So I'd say go for it. Mind you, I subscribe to the "if it feels good, do it" school of conlanging, as opposed to the "there's a panel of persimmon-sucking linguistics professors judging your every move" school. And if this genuinely concerns you, surely there is a way to explain the nasalization in (or if not, a little wave of hand or throwing a 'Hail Mary' (American football term)).
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 05 May 2018 12:03

I mean I don't really know what the worry is with the areal thing, Polish and the Sorbian languages have nasal vowels despite being surrounded by languages that lack them entirely, I see no reason your language can' be the same.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 05 May 2018 14:44

Both of you raise good points. I guess I'll try them and see how the end product sounds.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by holbuzvala » 09 May 2018 19:51

So I've got an idea for an auxlang. I've noticed most auxlangs tend to go for the smallest possible phonetic inventory so that anyone can pronounce all of its words. However, I think this is not an appropriate way to go about it, as instead of having absolute sounds, one can have prototypical(? - this might not be the right word) sounds. For instance, you can say the phonology contains a /p/ and /b/ contrast; but depending on the speaker's original tongue this may manifest as a [ph]-[p] contrast, or a ejective-voiceless contrast etc. My groupings (allowed allophonic variation, in parentheses) and contrasts (dash-linked) thus far are as follows:

p-b
k-g
t-d

(w/v)
(j)
(s/ʃ/h/ç)

Now, based on this paradigm, do we think 1, it's worth including an '(l/r)' grouping?
and 2, should there be a voiced contrast between the sibilants to create a minimal pair of /s/ with /z/ (and their likenesses)?

i.e. Yay or nay to include an (l/r) group, and yay or nay to add a voicing distinction to create s-z contrast?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 05 Jul 2018 18:15

holbuzvala wrote:
09 May 2018 19:51
i.e. Yay or nay to include an (l/r) group, and yay or nay to add a voicing distinction to create s-z contrast?
Pretty late for a reply, but I'll go with "yay" for both.

My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Jul 2018 23:02

felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 18:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 05 Jul 2018 23:51

shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 23:02
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 18:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.
Thanks for your input. I think I may also prefer 1, or perhaps 3. I'm more hesitant because it seems to be a bit too neat, tidy, and regular.
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 06 Jul 2018 00:24

felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 23:51
shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 23:02
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 18:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.
Thanks for your input. I think I may also prefer 1, or perhaps 3. I'm more hesitant because it seems to be a bit too neat, tidy, and regular.
Hmm, that's a valid concern. My "issue" with version 3 was that it makes it look, at least to me, like the genitive plural endings were derived from the accusative plural endings via the addition of -su/-sa/-se.

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