Yay or Nay?

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Omzinesý
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Omzinesý » 28 Jun 2019 16:46

Should I revise this project viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6988 that already has rounded front vowels etc. and position it somewhere in Scandinavia and make it an isolate in alternative Europe, and fill it with influence of Scandinavic languages, especially in vocabulary and pronunciation?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 07 Jul 2019 18:14

So, there is a question of conlinguistical ~ romanisation aesthetics that's been bugging me for a short while now. (Well, something like 30 years or so, but recent developments have brought the Question, again, to the forefront and I am come to a bit of a sticky point as regards a permanent solution.)

So I've known forever that the root dVn-, in various permutations, is the basic nom de race for a certain group of winged people in The World. I began, long ago, romanising the word Dainh. I thought -h were ever so cool. Thank God I grew out of that. The aitch was actually the nominative case marker for the local Germanic language spoken in the region (presumably -az > -as > -eh > -h) so the matter stood for quite a while.

All that time I knew that an individual of that race was called Tana. And more than one were called Denê. Once I got over my -h fascination, I determined that Daine would suffice for a romanisation, but obviously this still didn't square with the pronunciation. And it was all well and good when no one apart from me knew anything about the world. (And yes, I'm aware of the Athabaskan connexion.)

But now the Question of proper romanisation looms again, at least in my own head, only now there are a few more people aware of the world in question.

So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 » 07 Jul 2019 19:46

elemtilas wrote:
07 Jul 2019 18:14
So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 08 Jul 2019 01:08

Dormouse559 wrote:
07 Jul 2019 19:46
elemtilas wrote:
07 Jul 2019 18:14
So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick » 08 Jul 2019 03:07

elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 01:08
Dormouse559 wrote:
07 Jul 2019 19:46
elemtilas wrote:
07 Jul 2019 18:14
So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
I’d go with Denê since I think it’s the most likely to get an English speaker to give you the best approximate pronunciation. With the circumflex over the e, I don’t think you’ll get a lot of people saying /din/.

With Daine, I personally have a tendency to pronounce things as much as like the IPA as possible in the context of conlangs.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 08 Jul 2019 03:14

I would say, don’t worry about it, since the chances are low that you’ll have to listen to someone else read it out loud.

When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 » 08 Jul 2019 03:26

elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 01:08
Dormouse559 wrote:
07 Jul 2019 19:46
elemtilas wrote:
07 Jul 2019 18:14
So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
Hmm, personally, I've always pronounced "Daine" as /dai.ne/. "Denê" certainly seems to be the more transparent form, as far as pronunciation is concerned. But why not use both, as appropriate? English already handles things like Latin plurals.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 08 Jul 2019 04:20

eldin raigmore wrote:
08 Jul 2019 03:14
I would say, don’t worry about it, since the chances are low that you’ll have to listen to someone else read it out loud.

When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.
Of course, I know you're right about I'll not likely ever have to hear it read aloud. But, it's an old issue for me all the same (and those few who have long known about them do in fact use the spelling pronunciation /den/).

And no worries about any of this ever being made into a screenplay or anything of the sort.

However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Last edited by elemtilas on 08 Jul 2019 04:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 08 Jul 2019 04:27

Dormouse559 wrote:
08 Jul 2019 03:26
elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 01:08
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
Hmm, personally, I've always pronounced "Daine" as /dai.ne/. "Denê" certainly seems to be the more transparent form, as far as pronunciation is concerned. But why not use both, as appropriate? English already handles things like Latin plurals.
Oh, well! Not too far off, then!

Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?

spanick wrote:I’d go with Denê since I think it’s the most likely to get an English speaker to give you the best approximate pronunciation. With the circumflex over the e, I don’t think you’ll get a lot of people saying /din/.

With Daine, I personally have a tendency to pronounce things as much as like the IPA as possible in the context of conlangs.
Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. [O.o] Even though I know it's supposed to be there!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 » 08 Jul 2019 04:53

elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:27
Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?
I suppose I got the impression that "Daine" was a singular. It is pronounced like how I'd expect "Tana" to be. But reading over your post again, I see that isn't what you said.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 08 Jul 2019 04:59

Dormouse559 wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:53
elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:27
Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?
I suppose I got the impression that "Daine" was a singular. It is pronounced like how I'd expect "Tana" to be. But reading over your post again, I see that isn't what you said.
Oh, I see!

There have been instances where I've used Tana to describe an individual. And (incongruously) Daine for the race / species name.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick » 08 Jul 2019 05:58

elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:27

Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. [O.o] Even though I know it's supposed to be there!
Lol well that muddies the waters a bit. If you don’t pronounce the final e and are comfortable with other not doing so either, then Daine works, because I think a lot of English speakers will pronounce it /deɪn/, which is kinda close...-ish.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 08 Jul 2019 13:41

spanick wrote:
08 Jul 2019 05:58
elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:27

Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. [O.o] Even though I know it's supposed to be there!
Lol well that muddies the waters a bit. If you don’t pronounce the final e and are comfortable with other not doing so either, then Daine works, because I think a lot of English speakers will pronounce it /deɪn/, which is kinda close...-ish.
I ám trying to train myself!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 09 Jul 2019 00:22

elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:20
.... However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Then I say “Good for you!”. Where is your pronunciation guide available online for your fans or alpha-testers or beta-testers to refer to?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 09 Jul 2019 19:09

eldin raigmore wrote:
09 Jul 2019 00:22
elemtilas wrote:
08 Jul 2019 04:20
.... However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Then I say “Good for you!”. Where is your pronunciation guide available online for your fans or alpha-testers or beta-testers to refer to?
Oh! I sent him a copy of the pronunciation guide and appended it to the end of the text. I'll copy it here, since you're interested:
Pronounciation Guide

All words are given their pronunciations using the International Phonetic Alphabet.

Adani /a.dɑ.ni/
Andavaste /a.ndɑ.va.stɛ/
Arranderran /a.rɑ.nde.rɑn/
Bolgar /bol.gæɹ/
Camay /kɑ.mɑi/
Daine /de.ne/ (in Engl., usually /deːn/)
Elckô /ɛl.koː/
gorhyun /goɹ.jun/
Harval /hɑɹ.vɒl/
Lindetirio /lɪnd.ɛ.ti.ri.o/
Kaproyes /kɐ.pɹo.jɛz/
Narutanea /na.ru.tɑ.nɛ.ja/
Queranarran /kwɛ.rɑ.nɑ.rɑn/
Rûrofal /ruː.ro.fɑl/
Tanari /tɑ.nɑ.ri/
Tawaste /tɑ.wɑ.ste/
Varrelen /va.rɛ.lɛn/
Weyagni /vwei.ɐ.gni/
Wolquoyes /wol.kwoj.es/
Yaviê /jɑ.vi.eː/
Yeola /jo.lɑ/
yndori /ɨ.ndo.ri/
Zenorgaia /zɛn.oɹ.ga.ja/
Zenosia /zɛ.nos.i.ɛ/

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ » 03 Aug 2019 05:08

What about n > ɴ _{q, χ}, and then ɴ > ɦ?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ » 04 Aug 2019 23:26

qk > qʞ > ʛ?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gokupwned5 » 17 Aug 2019 00:43

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
03 Aug 2019 05:08
What about n > ɴ _{q, χ}, and then ɴ > ɦ?
Yeah. If you want to elaborate on it more, you could have any vowels adjacent to /ɴ/ become nasalized, and then the nasalization just goes away later on. For example:

/danqa/ > /daɴqa/ > /dãɦqa/ > /daɦqa/

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ » 19 Aug 2019 18:26

Initial vowel system:

/i i: ɨ ɨ: u/
/e e: ə ɵ o o:~u:/
/æ a: ɑ/

Harmony:

/i i e e æ ɵ/ vs /ɨ e ə æ ɑ o/

Is it possible that:

ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 18 Sep 2019 02:42

Is it possible that:

ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
I'll answer this. Most of these changes seem "reasonable" to me, as vowels can literally do almost anything (compared to consonants at least.) Generally though, vowels are motivated by chain shifts: movement in one area of the vowel space can cause movement of others. Nonetheless, none of this looks unreasonable, except perhaps the lower vowel space would seem crowded with /æː/, /aː/ and /ɒː/ with what you already have (but again, vowels do not need to be perfectly aligned.)



Should I delete word final schwa in my Crimean Gothic conlang?

A bit of background: the Crimean Gothic language (not the conlang) had likely reduce most of Biblical Gothic's unstressed vowels to schwa (to the point were the former can be derived from the latter) by the 16th century. Currently, I keep schwa and write it as <ъ>. An exception to this is the combination /jə/, which is written with the "small yer" <ь>.

Now, I want to innovate an allophonic soft-hard contrast, sort of like in Russian, mostly under influence from Russian through its loanwords. This would be a fairly recent change in the language, perhaps only two centuries ago, around the same time I plan to delete schwa. Besides loanwords, I could also palatalize consonants preceding schwa if there is a /j/ phoneme between them: an example of this kind of word is the name for the peninsula itself, кримь (currently: [ˈkʰrimjə]) to [ˈkʰriːmʲ] with deletion of the schwa and glide, and palatalization of the previous consonant. Someone in discord remarked that this is fairly similar to the state of affairs in Romanian, which I like because Romania is a close neighbor of Crimea and the Ukraine.

I am somewhat worried though this would ruin some of my grammar, as currently the strong feminine and neuter stems are distinguished in number and partially case by a final schwa (there written <е> as I haven't updated it to reflect the change to yer), though I suspect voicing might still be a distinguishing feature, at least among plosives.

So what do we think? Kill the schwa?
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