Yay or Nay?

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Creyeditor
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Jan 2018 19:57

Why not have an alien language where only the tones matter and the segments are predictable? Apart from the fixed Hertz (which is really alien) that would make it even more alien.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Fluffy8x » 13 Jan 2018 16:29

Lek-Tsaro had a system wherein there were words not for static colours, but rather colour transitions (i. e. green → blue is a separate root from green or blue). I was wondering if I should carry it to Middle Rymakonian, or replace it with something else.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ixals » 24 Jan 2018 01:41

Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 24 Jan 2018 09:15

ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
I vote, keep what you have.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 25 Jan 2018 00:49

ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
For fixed primary stress, IIRC, penultimate is first choice, initial is second choice, and ISTR final is third choice.

Why is what you have now choresome for you?
Spoiler:
Do you now have weight-sensitive primary stress, or what?
Do you have rhythm? If so is it weight-sensitive? If rhythm and primary stress are both weight-sensitive, is "weight" the same for both?
If you have secondary stress but not rhythm, is it "polar" (that is, likely to be close to the opposite end of the word from the primary stress)?
Do you have a different system for verbs from non-verbs?
Or do you have a different system for nouns than for non-nouns?
Or do you have a different system for borrowed words from native words?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 25 Jan 2018 01:18

ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
As much as I like making things easy, I'd say keep the stress unpredictable, if only to help further differentiate the language from the West Slavic branch.

Edit: Post #8989, apparently.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Iyionaku » 25 Jan 2018 11:25

eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
ixals wrote:
24 Jan 2018 01:41
Fixed stress in Cissian, yay or nay?

Either on the first syllable or the penultimate syllable. I like the current unpredictable stress but it's a lot of work to work out the individual stress pattern for every new word I create.
For fixed primary stress, IIRC, penultimate is first choice, initial is second choice, and ISTR final is third choice.

Why is what you have now choresome for you?
Spoiler:
Do you now have weight-sensitive primary stress, or what?
Do you have rhythm? If so is it weight-sensitive? If rhythm and primary stress are both weight-sensitive, is "weight" the same for both?
If you have secondary stress but not rhythm, is it "polar" (that is, likely to be close to the opposite end of the word from the primary stress)?
Do you have a different system for verbs from non-verbs?
Or do you have a different system for nouns than for non-nouns?
Or do you have a different system for borrowed words from native words?
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 25 Jan 2018 17:08

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
The closest I can think of is PIE accent, but that's so complicated and specific you can't really say that one pattern favours one word class over the other. There might be a language out there which behaves like this, but I would first wonder how that situation came about and secondly I wouldn't expect it to be through-going either.

When it comes to tone on the other hand the situation is quite different, but I won't go into it now.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by loglorn » 25 Jan 2018 17:45

Frislander wrote:
25 Jan 2018 17:08
Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
The closest I can think of is PIE accent, but that's so complicated and specific you can't really say that one pattern favours one word class over the other. There might be a language out there which behaves like this, but I would first wonder how that situation came about and secondly I wouldn't expect it to be through-going either.

When it comes to tone on the other hand the situation is quite different, but I won't go into it now.
One could even say English works that way. A large number of Latinate loans have their part of speech distinguished by stress. And I can conceive a few ways that would develop, at least within derivational relationships. A more across the board example will probably prove tricky, but might be possible of you posit a language with, say, an initially closed class of verbs that was subjected to intense language contact, like Japanese and Korean.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ixals » 27 Jan 2018 13:51

eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
Why is what you have now choresome for you?
Cissian's stress is unpredictable and currently the same as Russian's stress. So that's about ten different stress patterns in nouns. There wouldn't be much of an issue with it, if I had enough materials. What's the stress pattern for words that didn't survive in Russian (or Ukrainian)? What's the stress pattern for derivations that don't exist in Russian? Of course, I might make a problem out of this by myself and I could easily assign a random and/or likely stress pattern to these words, but I'd like the language to be as accurate as possible.
eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
Do you now have weight-sensitive primary stress, or what?
Do you have rhythm? If so is it weight-sensitive? If rhythm and primary stress are both weight-sensitive, is "weight" the same for both?
If you have secondary stress but not rhythm, is it "polar" (that is, likely to be close to the opposite end of the word from the primary stress)?
Haven't worked on that in detail yet. It's also not that important for now I'd say.
eldin raigmore wrote:
25 Jan 2018 00:49
Do you have a different system for verbs from non-verbs?
Or do you have a different system for nouns than for non-nouns?
Or do you have a different system for borrowed words from native words?
This should give a basic overview I think. Loanwords have fixed stress however. It's only native words that are choresome to me.
shimobaatar wrote:
25 Jan 2018 01:18
As much as I like making things easy, I'd say keep the stress unpredictable, if only to help further differentiate the language from the West Slavic branch.
That's a good point. The stress pattern right now really is what differentiates Cissian from West Slavic the most.

I think I'll keep the unpredictable stress pattern but make it a little bit more regular in some cases.
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :fra:, :por:, :tur:

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 27 Jan 2018 17:25

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
All of them do. And there are yet more possible complication that occur in that line.
And there is also the ultimate complexity;
“Each word has its own ‘pattern’; There is no way to generalize between groups of words”.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 27 Jan 2018 17:28

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Jan 2018 11:25
Do the points 4 and 5 actually exist in natlangs?
All of them do. And there are yet more possible complication that occur in that line.
And there is also the ultimate complexity;
“Each word has its own ‘pattern’; There is no way to generalize between groups of words”.

And by the way thank you for answering my questions!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Keenir » 28 Jan 2018 02:11

For Stoplang, I thought I'd take a page from Babylonian, and only have two numbers (excluding 0s and the base number)

1 - 'uud [ʔu:d]

10 - 'a'u [ʔa.ʔu]

100 - 'a3 [ʔaʒ]

...my question is if I should have a second 1... 'agh [ʔag_h] ?

thoughts?

thank you.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 28 Jan 2018 10:37

I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Keenir » 28 Jan 2018 12:02

gestaltist wrote:
28 Jan 2018 10:37
I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.
if I should have two unrelated words for the number 1, or just stick with one word.
apologies for my inclarity.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 29 Jan 2018 10:20

Keenir wrote:
28 Jan 2018 12:02
gestaltist wrote:
28 Jan 2018 10:37
I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.
if I should have two unrelated words for the number 1, or just stick with one word.
apologies for my inclarity.
Ah, thank you. And why do you want to have two? Any reason in particular or "just because"?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Keenir » 29 Jan 2018 11:13

gestaltist wrote:
29 Jan 2018 10:20
Keenir wrote:
28 Jan 2018 12:02
gestaltist wrote:
28 Jan 2018 10:37
I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.
if I should have two unrelated words for the number 1, or just stick with one word.
apologies for my inclarity.
Ah, thank you. And why do you want to have two? Any reason in particular or "just because"?
kinda just because...a niggling feeling in the back of my skull that whispered "no, you can not only have one word for one." It was the part of my brain that says things without researching.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Lao Kou » 29 Jan 2018 11:24

Keenir wrote:
29 Jan 2018 11:13
gestaltist wrote:
29 Jan 2018 10:20
Keenir wrote:
28 Jan 2018 12:02
gestaltist wrote:
28 Jan 2018 10:37
I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.
if I should have two unrelated words for the number 1, or just stick with one word.
apologies for my inclarity.
Ah, thank you. And why do you want to have two? Any reason in particular or "just because"?
kinda just because...a niggling feeling in the back of my skull that whispered "no, you can not only have one word for one." It was the part of my brain that says things without researching.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 29 Jan 2018 14:19

Keenir wrote:
29 Jan 2018 11:13
gestaltist wrote:
29 Jan 2018 10:20
Keenir wrote:
28 Jan 2018 12:02
gestaltist wrote:
28 Jan 2018 10:37
I have no idea what you're asking Keenir.
if I should have two unrelated words for the number 1, or just stick with one word.
apologies for my inclarity.
Ah, thank you. And why do you want to have two? Any reason in particular or "just because"?
kinda just because...a niggling feeling in the back of my skull that whispered "no, you can not only have one word for one." It was the part of my brain that says things without researching.
In that case definitely go for it. I believe in listening to intuition.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 09 Feb 2018 15:39

This is an organization/documentation related question.

Shonkasika verbs have two ways of forming their perfect stem, which is the basis of the two conjugation classes. Most verbs belong to one class, but there is a substantial number of verbs that belong to the other.

There are also two ways each to form the future stem and the habitual stem. For each stem, the suffixed way includes the overwhelming majority of verbs, with 20-40 other verbs forming the stem in some other way (ablaut for future and partial reduplication for the habitual). For now, I’ve simply been calling those minority of verbs “irregular” although they could be their own classes since their

Question: should I organize them into classes, bringing the number of verb conjugation classes to 8, or should I leave it as is with 2 classes with a remainder of “strong/irregular” future and habitual forms?
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