Yay or Nay?

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Apr 2018 21:23

Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 20:27
Wondering how I should do the joint agent/patient/tense conjugation on verb roots in levian10.
Swahili and other Bantu languages prefix the verb with a complex morpheme made up of the follwing sequence:
The agent’s (subject’s) noun-class (fusionally marking both its gender and its grammatical number);
The verb’s tense (maybe in some languages also one or more of its aspect, modality/mode/mood, voice, and/or polarity?);
The patient’s (object’s) noun-class (gender&number).
For reference, levian10 is a triconsonantal root language in which the consonants of a root can be reördered for inflectional purposes.
Really? I thought of that, but was told I could never make it work! I tried and ran into difficulty and decided my lang’s critics were right and gave up!
If you can do it I will be filled with about equal parts curiosity, admiration, and envy!
Show me, please?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Apr 2018 21:26

Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 20:27
Roots also have a gender in (Z ∩ [-13, 13])3, ...
I know what that means!
And I know it also means you’re either a math major or you at least passed Calculus I!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Fluffy8x » 26 Apr 2018 22:29

eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Apr 2018 21:23
Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 20:27
Wondering how I should do the joint agent/patient/tense conjugation on verb roots in levian10.
Swahili and other Bantu languages prefix the verb with a complex morpheme made up of the follwing sequence:
The agent’s (subject’s) noun-class (fusionally marking both its gender and its grammatical number);
The verb’s tense (maybe in some languages also one or more of its aspect, modality/mode/mood, voice, and/or polarity?);
The patient’s (object’s) noun-class (gender&number).
Yeah, I could go with that, but I want to fuse cats in odd combinations.
For reference, levian10 is a triconsonantal root language in which the consonants of a root can be reördered for inflectional purposes.
Really? I thought of that, but was told I could never make it work! I tried and ran into difficulty and decided my lang’s critics were right and gave up!
If you can do it I will be filled with about equal parts curiosity, admiration, and envy!
Show me, please?
All roots in levian10 follow an ordering in which the root abc (translated into a triplet of integers mod 729) satisfies f(a) ≼ f(b) ≼ f(c). f: Z729Z729 is bijective and ≼ is kind of a cyclic less-than-or-equals: pq iff (qp) ≤ 364.

In some degenerate cases, two or more of the consonants could equal each other. This happens only in derived roots, but levian10 has its strategy for resolving this issue.
eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Apr 2018 21:26
Fluffy8x wrote:
26 Apr 2018 20:27
Roots also have a gender in (Z ∩ [-13, 13])3, ...
I know what that means!
And I know it also means you’re either a math major or you at least passed Calculus I!
CS major, but maths minor.

Edit: so far, I've been calling this language by its koznumber, but I've named it ŊþaċaḤa /,ŋθatɬa,xa/.
an siina levian t'isorakateez

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 27 Apr 2018 00:29

spanick wrote:
26 Apr 2018 18:18
I have a couple ideas for my Romlang Túrnnan that is like to get some opinions on.

1) initially, I didn’t design Túrnnan with a subjunctive because the present subjunctive and present indicative of Latin became identical in Túrnnan. It didn’t take long for me to wish there was some subjunctive so I tried deriving it from the imperfect subjunctive but again the results were blurry. I’m the singular, the forms largely look like the infinitive and in the plural the forms were identical to the future tense.

That gave me this idea: the future tense shifts to the subjunctive and the is replaced by the periphrastic construction of “go + infinitive”. Does this seem reasonable?

2) The speakers of Túrnnan live in Austria and are largely bilingual. Given this, I’d like to incorporate some german syntax, particularly placing the main verb finally in periphrastic constructions and also in subordinate clauses. Thoughts? Am I pushing the realism here?
I can't give you much advice about realism/naturalism, I'm afraid, but I do know that future and irrealis moods are and have been conflated in some languages, so I think your idea #1 is interesting.

As for idea #2, it does happen that languages in certain areas can share certain features despite not being derived from the same parent language. I believe that situation can be called a Sprachbund.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick » 27 Apr 2018 04:56

felipesnark wrote:
27 Apr 2018 00:29
I can't give you much advice about realism/naturalism, I'm afraid, but I do know that future and irrealis moods are and have been conflated in some languages, so I think your idea #1 is interesting.
Yeah. Intuitively, I thought that the future was connected to the irrealis but when looking at other Indo-European languages, it seems it’s more strongly connected with the past tense. A little digging turned up that the pluperfect indicative became the conditional in Sicilian and the imperfect subjunctive in Spanish, so I could always use that for the present subjunctive.
As for idea #2, it does happen that languages in certain areas can share certain features despite not being derived from the same parent language. I believe that situation can be called a Sprachbund.
After a little digging, it seems there is some precedent in Romance languages for V2 syntax such as Old French and Romansch, so I’ll probably make this change.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 05 May 2018 05:43

Should I add a set of nasal vowels to Castellan?

Pro:
>Romance languages seem to love them. Portuguese, French, Spanish allophonically and many Italian dialects have them.
>Common Slavic had them.
>I like the way they sound

Con:
>Not an areal feature
>Romanian, my closest neighbor, never developed them, despite strong Slavic influence


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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Lao Kou » 05 May 2018 09:37

Ælfwine wrote:
05 May 2018 05:43
Should I add a set of nasal vowels to Castellan?

Pro:
>Romance languages seem to love them. Portuguese, French, Spanish allophonically and many Italian dialects have them.
>Common Slavic had them.
>I like the way they sound

Con:
>Not an areal feature
>Romanian, my closest neighbor, never developed them, despite strong Slavic influence


Aquincum > Aquęc /ə'ke~k/
It looks like the cons are outnumbered by the pros, the most important of which is that you like the way they sound. So I'd say go for it. Mind you, I subscribe to the "if it feels good, do it" school of conlanging, as opposed to the "there's a panel of persimmon-sucking linguistics professors judging your every move" school. And if this genuinely concerns you, surely there is a way to explain the nasalization in (or if not, a little wave of hand or throwing a 'Hail Mary' (American football term)).
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Frislander » 05 May 2018 11:03

I mean I don't really know what the worry is with the areal thing, Polish and the Sorbian languages have nasal vowels despite being surrounded by languages that lack them entirely, I see no reason your language can' be the same.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 05 May 2018 13:44

Both of you raise good points. I guess I'll try them and see how the end product sounds.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by holbuzvala » 09 May 2018 18:51

So I've got an idea for an auxlang. I've noticed most auxlangs tend to go for the smallest possible phonetic inventory so that anyone can pronounce all of its words. However, I think this is not an appropriate way to go about it, as instead of having absolute sounds, one can have prototypical(? - this might not be the right word) sounds. For instance, you can say the phonology contains a /p/ and /b/ contrast; but depending on the speaker's original tongue this may manifest as a [ph]-[p] contrast, or a ejective-voiceless contrast etc. My groupings (allowed allophonic variation, in parentheses) and contrasts (dash-linked) thus far are as follows:

p-b
k-g
t-d

(w/v)
(j)
(s/ʃ/h/ç)

Now, based on this paradigm, do we think 1, it's worth including an '(l/r)' grouping?
and 2, should there be a voiced contrast between the sibilants to create a minimal pair of /s/ with /z/ (and their likenesses)?

i.e. Yay or nay to include an (l/r) group, and yay or nay to add a voicing distinction to create s-z contrast?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 05 Jul 2018 17:15

holbuzvala wrote:
09 May 2018 18:51
i.e. Yay or nay to include an (l/r) group, and yay or nay to add a voicing distinction to create s-z contrast?
Pretty late for a reply, but I'll go with "yay" for both.

My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Jul 2018 22:02

felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 17:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 05 Jul 2018 22:51

shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:02
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 17:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.
Thanks for your input. I think I may also prefer 1, or perhaps 3. I'm more hesitant because it seems to be a bit too neat, tidy, and regular.
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Jul 2018 23:24

felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:51
shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:02
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 17:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.
Thanks for your input. I think I may also prefer 1, or perhaps 3. I'm more hesitant because it seems to be a bit too neat, tidy, and regular.
Hmm, that's a valid concern. My "issue" with version 3 was that it makes it look, at least to me, like the genitive plural endings were derived from the accusative plural endings via the addition of -su/-sa/-se.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 06 Jul 2018 01:21

shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 23:24
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:51
shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:02
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 17:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.
Thanks for your input. I think I may also prefer 1, or perhaps 3. I'm more hesitant because it seems to be a bit too neat, tidy, and regular.
Hmm, that's a valid concern. My "issue" with version 3 was that it makes it look, at least to me, like the genitive plural endings were derived from the accusative plural endings via the addition of -su/-sa/-se.
Good point. I actually like version 1 fine, just thinking of ways to make the paradigm seem a bit less regular. Here's an idea: version 1, but the genitive plural changed to -udes(-odes?)/-ades/-ides for the masculine/feminine/neuter respectively.
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 06 Jul 2018 01:37

felipesnark wrote:
06 Jul 2018 01:21
shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 23:24
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:51
shimobaatar wrote:
05 Jul 2018 22:02
felipesnark wrote:
05 Jul 2018 17:15
My question. I am working on a new a priori artlang/personal conlang that is not an IE-lang, but inspired by many IE languages.
I'm working on the noun/adjective declensions and I feel unsure about the accusative and genitive plurals. I've come up with three possible paradigms. What are your thoughts or suggestions?
Spoiler:
Version 1
Image
Version 2
Image
Version 3
Image
Interesting. I've faced a similar dilemma myself.

I think I would go with version 1 or 2, although I'd say I prefer version 1 personally.
Thanks for your input. I think I may also prefer 1, or perhaps 3. I'm more hesitant because it seems to be a bit too neat, tidy, and regular.
Hmm, that's a valid concern. My "issue" with version 3 was that it makes it look, at least to me, like the genitive plural endings were derived from the accusative plural endings via the addition of -su/-sa/-se.
Good point. I actually like version 1 fine, just thinking of ways to make the paradigm seem a bit less regular. Here's an idea: version 1, but the genitive plural changed to -udes(-odes?)/-ades/-ides for the masculine/feminine/neuter respectively.
I like that!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by felipesnark » 26 Jul 2018 17:24

Another question for my new project, now dubbed Denkurian.

The past tense for regular verbs forms by a type of vowel ablaut of the final vowel of the stem:
bodat I love / bodot I loved
munit I drink / munyot I drank
etc...

I am thinking of adding some sort of stem prefix for the past tense forms, like perhaps a(h)-
ex: bodat, abodot

Or perhaps partial reduplication?
bodat, bobodot

So which one for the past tenses?
Option 1: no prefix/reduplication
bodat, bodot

Option 2: one prefix for all verbs
bodat, abodot

Option 3: partial reduplication
bodat, bobodot

Option 4: some combination of the above with 2 or 3 verb classes?
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 26 Jul 2018 21:30

I think I like Option 2 the best.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 » 26 Jul 2018 22:24

Using multiple strategies can be fun. I'd go for Option 4.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 26 Jul 2018 23:04

Didn't see Option 4 before. I'd go with that.

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