Yay or Nay?

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
cromulant
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 157
Joined: 13 Jan 2012 00:04

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by cromulant » 15 Jan 2012 18:50

Theta wrote:They're kind of like the measure words of Chinese or the classifiers in Vietnamese. Basically the way they work is similar to adjectives. Let's say there's a classifier for animate entities i.e. animals, people, and weather or something. This would go in front of all root nouns that pertain to that type of entity. However, there could be more than one classifier per root, like if you had the inanimate objects classifier modifying the word for person it could mean 'statue' or 'drawing of a person'. Not all classifiers could go on any root, so they aren't as free as adjectives and they're more or less a closed class.
That actually sounds interestingly different from the Chinese and Vietnamese systems (as I understand them), which are simply measure words. Whereas this sounds like derivation. Seems like they could play a role in genitive constructions as well, if you wanted that.

It does sound cool--especially if there are restrictions on noun-classifier pairing. My gut instinct is to say 'yay.' Although the question is not really how cool is this feature in isolation, but how well would it mesh with the rest of Giamulu.

User avatar
smrk
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 99
Joined: 02 Jan 2012 19:10

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by smrk » 19 Jan 2012 22:11

cromulant wrote:-So you'd do this with all persons, not just 2.SG?
-Which auxiliary verbs does this apply to?
-What's the language's word order? Include the position of the auxiliary verb in your description.

Also, a gloss of the Czech would be nice.
Co jsi děla-l
what AUX.2SG do-PAST.MASC

Co-s děla-l
what-2SG do-PAST.MASC

Vědě-l jsi to
know-PAST.MASC.SG AUX.2SG it

Vědě-l-s to
know-PAST.MASC.SG-2SG it

Czech word order is very free, but the auxiliary verb is always in the second position. It's only ever reduced in second person singular and only when a verb or a demonstrative comes before it, and it seems to be used more often in questions. It isn't reduced after nouns, ever. (The auxiliary verb comes from "to be".)

My idea was to indicate the person and number in the past tense by adding a suffix to the object rather than by changing the verb, with the conceit that this was the result of an auxiliary verb being reduced -- the suffixes on the object would be clearly related to the verb conjugation in the present tense. Yes, I'd do this with all persons. All I have of my conlang is a collection of vague ideas and a phonology, so I'm not wedded to word order or the position of the auxiliary verb. But I do like SOV, and I was imagining that the auxiliary verb would have come just before the verb.

Here's an example, which I just made off the top of my head. Say that "am" indicates the past, the suffix "in" indicates the third person singular in the present, and the suffix "u" indicates the accusative.

"bubu kokin"
game-ACC play-PRES.3SG

"bub-u-in kokam"
game-ACC-3SG play.PAST

Does that make sense?
death to vowels
:eng: [:D] / :ces: [:D] / :slk: [:S] / :esp: [:'(] / :deu: :mrred:

User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6256
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 20 Jan 2012 20:24

Theta wrote:Should I have classifiers in Giamulu or not?
Noun-classifiers or verb-classifiers?
If noun-classifiers: numeral classifiers or possessive classifiers?

thetha
darkness
darkness
Posts: 1995
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 00:43

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by thetha » 21 Jan 2012 01:11

I don't know what you mean.

User avatar
Micamo
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7186
Joined: 05 Sep 2010 18:48
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Micamo » 21 Jan 2012 16:02

Theta wrote:I don't know what you mean.
"Verb classifiers" are those like in Navajo. All other classifiers are "noun classifiers."

"Numeral Classifiers" are noun classifiers used with numerals, while "possessive classifiers" are used with possessive constructions. Numeral classifiers you're probably familiar with, but possessive classifiers are much rarer. A required possessive classifier can be used to indicate either the purpose of a possessive relationship, or how that possessive relationship came to be. For example, something like "My pet chicken" or "My for-eating chicken" or "My stolen chicken" or "My purchased chicken."
My pronouns are <xie> [ʒiː] / <xer> [ʒɚ]

My shitty twitter

thetha
darkness
darkness
Posts: 1995
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 00:43

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by thetha » 21 Jan 2012 17:14

I suppose they're numeral classifiers, although I think they will be applicable in other situations once I get the system worked out.

thetha
darkness
darkness
Posts: 1995
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 00:43

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by thetha » 22 Jan 2012 23:29

Another unrelated question: Yay or nay, Kinál phonology revamp: add /θ t͡θʼ t͡ɬʼ m̰ n̰ / and remove /x xʷ/.

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 04:14
Location: Texas

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Chagen » 25 Jan 2012 15:19

A wierd little aspect system for Qeq. I think examples speak louder than words here:

K'oto: I sit ("K'" is the first person pronoun "Kot"--it undergoes french-like elision in front a verb that start with a vowel)

K'otonom: I sit (under something)

K'otomym: I sit (above something)

K'ototho: I sit (next to something)

K'otosi: I sit (on something)

K'otoak: I sit (in something)

These markers are only used with verb of location. Such verbs might be:

Oto: to sit
Tomoq: to put
Jyth: to push

Verbs of movement get them as well, as well as a few others:

Kot ue jythnom r'eta.
[Kot ue jyth-nom ren eta]
[1.SG 3.SG.NEU push-under DEF table]
"I push it under the table"


Change that verb to "jythcew" and you get "I push it off the table".

There's also other aspects. Here's a little taste:

K'athipinwa no Wū.
[Kot athi-pin-wa no wū]
[1SG hit-ATTEMPT-CONTRARY PST 3.SG.M]
"I tried to hit him, but I couldn't/but I failed to".

What do you think?
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

User avatar
Maximillian
light
light
Posts: 667
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 19:33
Location: Israel
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Maximillian » 25 Jan 2012 15:41

Chagen wrote:What do you think?
A cool idea. I thought actually of doing a similar thing for verbs of movement in Ríhannen. I wanted to use infixes for this. For example:
vamen means "I go";
vilamen would mean "I go out";
venamen would mean "I go under (something)";
etc.
UNUS•ET•UNICUS

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 04:14
Location: Texas

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Chagen » 25 Jan 2012 16:11

Thanks!

By the way, I also have a nice little tidbit of SAE-a perphrasitic perfect, formed with the verb "to have"--<ū>:

K'ū r'eta otowosi.
[Kot ū ren eta oto-wo-si]
[1.SG have DEF table sit-PTCPL-ON]
"I've sat on the table"

"K'ū r'eta" is just "I have a table".

I'm thinking of making Qeq V2.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

User avatar
Ear of the Sphinx
metal
metal
Posts: 1987
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 00:41
Location: Nose of the Sun

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » 25 Jan 2012 17:38

Look at prefixes on verbs in Slavics.
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

Solarius
roman
roman
Posts: 1193
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 00:23

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Solarius » 02 Feb 2012 14:30

Should I merge the Comitative and the Instrumental in Alife?
Check out Ussaria!

User avatar
Ear of the Sphinx
metal
metal
Posts: 1987
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 00:41
Location: Nose of the Sun

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » 02 Feb 2012 16:24

If you like to.
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 04:14
Location: Texas

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Chagen » 07 Feb 2012 16:35

Would it be a good idea to have Pazmat's long vowels go a process similar to english? That is, Diphthongize them.

Therefore:

[i:] becomes [aI]

[u:] becomes [aU]

[o:] becomes [oI]

[e:] becomes [e{]

[a:] becomes [ao]

A good idea, or are the changes somewhat unlikely?
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

User avatar
Xing
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5311
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 17:46

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Xing » 07 Feb 2012 17:02

Chagen wrote:Would it be a good idea to have Pazmat's long vowels go a process similar to english? That is, Diphthongize them.

Therefore:

[i:] becomes [aI]

[u:] becomes [aU]

[o:] becomes [oI]

[e:] becomes [e{]

[a:] becomes [ao]

A good idea, or are the changes somewhat unlikely?
Something similar could work fine. I myself like to play around with vowel changes [:D]

Just see it to that you have plausible intermediate changes.

/i:/ probably didn't just evolve into /aI/ in as single step, or /o:/ into /oI/, or /u:/ into /aU/

It's plausible that changes work through in chains. If /u:/ evolves into /aU/, it's perhaps not the most likely changes to have /a:/ evolving into /ao/, which would be very similar to /aU/. It be more plausible if, for example, and lowering of /u:/ pushed /a:/ forwards, to /æ:/ or something.

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 04:14
Location: Texas

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Chagen » 07 Feb 2012 17:20

That's great, actually. /æ/ is main <a> phoneme of Pazmat, and now I have an explination for its existence.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

Solarius
roman
roman
Posts: 1193
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 00:23

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Solarius » 13 Feb 2012 16:58

Should I add another fricative series to Alife?
Check out Ussaria!

User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6256
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 13 Feb 2012 23:23

Solarius wrote:Should I add another fricative series to Alife?
:?: [:S]
"another" "series"?
Aren't the fricatives already a series, and any fricatives you add would be in the same series?
If you add a fricative at a new point-of-articulation, you're just adding one (or two if you have a voiced/unvoiced or short/long distinction) more fricatives, right?
Or do you want to make an unvoiced-vs-voiced distinction that you aren't yet making?
Or maybe you want to introduce a short-vs-long distinction?
Or do you want to add ejective fricatives or something?

User avatar
MrKrov
banned
Posts: 2414
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:47
Location: /ai/ > /a:/
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by MrKrov » 14 Feb 2012 00:40

"What fricative series do you already have?" <---Brevity, yo.

Solarius
roman
roman
Posts: 1193
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 00:23

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Solarius » 08 Mar 2012 23:23

Should I get rid of number?
Check out Ussaria!

Post Reply