Development thread of my newest project

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Development thread of my newest project

Post by Omzinesý » 29 Apr 2019 10:18

A new project with old ingredients

p t c k
b d ɟ g
m n ɲ (bm dn ɟɲ)
s ɕ
l ʎ (dl ɟʎ)
ɾ (dɾ)
j w ʁ (ɟj gw ɢʁ)
All sonorants have a prestopped pair that appears as a consonant mutation in morphology.

i u
e ə o
ä
Length is distinctive except with /ə/.

Phonotactics is the boring CVC. Long vowels only appear in open syllables. Obstruents are devoiced syllable-finally.

Verbs code: TAM, evidentiality, and agree: subject and object persons and genders.
I'll test having no nonfinite verb forms. So there will be subjunctives, conditional moods, relative moods etc.
Some kind of incorporation will appear, either the object can be combined with the verb or there are very many productive derivational affixes that can be added to all nouns.

Nouns have three genders: masculine, feminine, and plural.
I still haven's used the case system of Direct, Genitive, Essive, and Locative enough.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 08 Jun 2019 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 02 May 2019 13:41

Orthography doesnt have anything special

p t c k
b d j g
m n ñ (bm dn jñ)
s x
l ll (dl jll)
r dr
y w ġ (jy gw gġ)

i u
e ǝ o
a

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 03 May 2019 16:48

Phonotactics

The only allowed consonant clusters consist of two obstruents with the same MOA (pt, gd, mn ...). The first one does not have an own explosion.
A semivowel /w, j <y>) can however appear between a consonant and a vowel.
"pkyamn" is thus an allowed syllable.

Every sonorant has a prestopped pair. The prestopped consonants are considered single consonants. They cannot appear syllable-finally.

Phonetic rules


Syllable-final obstruents devoice.
ma.ga + na => mak.na

Semivowels (w, j <y>) are also devoiced word-finally to [ʍ] and [ç] respectively.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 03 May 2019 17:53

First attempt for verb morphology

Verbs agree the subject and the gender of a definite object.
The example verb is "luk". I don't know what it should mean.


Egophoric
/e/ and /yu/ can be interpreted as markers egophoricity.
Subject markers: sg1 and pl1incl don't have markers. 1st person marker is /t/, 2nd person marker is /p/ and 3rd person marker is /h/.
Object markers: masculine definite object marker is u/w, feminine definite object marker is i/y, and plural definite object marker is a/ya.

Code: Select all

             no definite object masculine object feminine object plural object 
sg1          luk-e              luk-e-w          luk-e-y         luk-e-ya 
sg2          luk-e-p            luk-e-p-u        luk-e-p-i       luk-e-p-a
3            luk-e-h            luk-e-h-u        luk-e-h-i       luk-e-ha
pl1incl      luk-yu             luk-yu-w         luk-yu-y        luk-yu-ya
pl1excl      luk-yu-t           luk-yu-t-u       luk-yu-t-i      luk-yu-t-a
pl2          luk-yu-p           luk-yu-p-u       luk-yu-p-i      luk-yu-p-a
Sensory evidential

Code: Select all

             no definite object masculine object feminine object plural object 
sg1          luk-at             luk-at-u         luk-at-i        luk-at-a 
sg2          luk-ap             luk-ap-u         luk-ap-i        luk-ap-a
3            luk                luk-u            luk-i           luk-a
pl1incl      luk-ok             luk-ok-u         luk-ok-i        luk-ok-a
pl1excl      luk-ot             luk-o-t-u        luk-ot-i        luk-ot-a
pl2          luk-op             luk-o-p-u        luk-op-i        luk-op-a

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 06 May 2019 01:35

What’s egophoricity again?

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by gach » 07 May 2019 00:21

eldin raigmore wrote:
06 May 2019 01:35
What’s egophoricity again?
It's about coding personal authority over the information; in the classical case being personal knowledge by the subject. The characteristic egophoric pattern is that you mark the 1st person in applicable declarative clauses and the 2nd person in questions, meaning that you anticipate your addressee to have personal authority over the answer. 3rd person egophorics can appear in reported speech.

@Omzinesý: If you've come up with a more detailed description of the behaviour of your evidential/egophoric system, it would be lovely to read it.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 07 May 2019 18:02

gach wrote:
07 May 2019 00:21
eldin raigmore wrote:
06 May 2019 01:35
What’s egophoricity again?
It's about coding personal authority over the information; in the classical case being personal knowledge by the subject. The characteristic egophoric pattern is that you mark the 1st person in applicable declarative clauses and the 2nd person in questions, meaning that you anticipate your addressee to have personal authority over the answer. 3rd person egophorics can appear in reported speech.

@Omzinesý: If you've come up with a more detailed description of the behaviour of your evidential/egophoric system, it would be lovely to read it.
That is basically what I know about it now. I'm going to concentrate on morphology in this lang. Morphology is the hardest part for me. So it is possible that there will be no better description of egophoricity for this lang.
The problem with egophoricity and morphology is that I don't know any language with both egophoricity marking and subject person agreement. Typologically they are distinct phenomena but I have no exemplars of natlangs.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by gach » 07 May 2019 19:26

Omzinesý wrote:
07 May 2019 18:02
The problem with egophoricity and morphology is that I don't know any language with both egophoricity marking and subject person agreement. Typologically they are distinct phenomena but I have no exemplars of natlangs.
They usually don't occur together and egophoric marking certainly can develop from person marking. However, there are a few counterexamples to this pattern, which you could look into.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 14 May 2019 08:27

gach wrote:
07 May 2019 19:26
Omzinesý wrote:
07 May 2019 18:02
The problem with egophoricity and morphology is that I don't know any language with both egophoricity marking and subject person agreement. Typologically they are distinct phenomena but I have no exemplars of natlangs.
They usually don't occur together and egophoric marking certainly can develop from person marking. However, there are a few counterexamples to this pattern, which you could look into.
Nice there are such languages. Thank you.
It seems in the language you linked there is thought a simple agglutinative morphology. I would suppose sg1 should be unmarked beside egophoricity marking and sg3 beside sensory marking.
Actually I think egophoricity markers usually develop from existential copulae. But it's some years since I have read about them.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by gach » 14 May 2019 19:11

Omzinesý wrote:
14 May 2019 08:27
Actually I think egophoricity markers usually develop from existential copulae. But it's some years since I have read about them.
That's true for Tibetan at least, but I wouldn't know how wide that typology extends beyond it. At least in Bunan egophoric marking developed from the reanalysis of person marking. I have a gut feeling that deriving egophoric marking should actually be reasonably justifiable from quite a few sources. In addition to person marking and existentials, I wouldn't be too surprised to see it derived from evidentials, intensifiers, or periphrastic conjugation.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 16 May 2019 17:36

gach wrote:
14 May 2019 19:11
Omzinesý wrote:
14 May 2019 08:27
Actually I think egophoricity markers usually develop from existential copulae. But it's some years since I have read about them.
That's true for Tibetan at least, but I wouldn't know how wide that typology extends beyond it. At least in Bunan egophoric marking developed from the reanalysis of person marking. I have a gut feeling that deriving egophoric marking should actually be reasonably justifiable from quite a few sources. In addition to person marking and existentials, I wouldn't be too surprised to see it derived from evidentials, intensifiers, or periphrastic conjugation.
Tanks again! That's interesting.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 16 May 2019 18:08

A new version of verb inflection

The intransitive inflection is easy and agglutinative.

Epistemic slot
-a 'Sensory'
-i 'Egophoric'
-u 'Fact'
-o 'Reportative'

Person slot
-ya 'I' -zero with the egophoric form
-hu 'you'
-k 'he/it'
-c 'she/it'
-p 'they'

The mood system is still coming. -p is Indicative marker.


Intransitive

Sensory evidential
root-MOOD-SENS-PERSON
sg1 luk-p-a-ya
sg2 luk-p-a-hu
M3 kuk-p-a-k
F3 luk-p-a-c
PL3 luk-p-a-p
pl1 and pl2 still lacking

Egophoric
root-IND-SENS-PERSON
sg1 luk-p-i
sg2 luk-p-i-hu
M3 kuk-p-i-k
F3 luk-p-i-c
PL3 luk-p-i-p

Fact
root-IND-SENS-PERSON
sg1 luk-p-u-ya
sg2 luk-p-u-hu
M3 kuk-p-u-k
F3 luk-p-u-c
PL3 luk-p-u-p

Reportative
root-IND-SENS-PERSON
sg1 luk-p-o-ya
sg2 luk-p-o-hu
M3 kuk-p-o-k
F3 luk-p-o-c
PL3 luk-p-o-p


Transitive inflection is more complicated.

In Transitive Sensory inflection the third person objects form a portmanteau morpheme with Sensory epistemic marker.
The history is:
-a-k => a-w => ō
-a-c => a-j => ē
-ā is maybe just analogical.

Code: Select all

Sensory, 3rd person objects 
Masculine object Feminine object Plural object 
sg1 luk-p-ō-ya   sg1 luk-p-ē-ya  sg1 luk-p-ā-ya
sg2 luk-p-ō-hu   sg2 luk-p-ē-hu  sg2 luk-p-ā-hu
M3 kuk-p-ō-k     M3 luk-p-ē-k    M3 luk-p-ā-k
F3 luk-p-ō-c     F3 luk-p-ē-c    F3 luk-p-ā-c
PL3 luk-p-ō-p    PL3 luk-p-ē-p   PL3 luk-p-ā-p

Transitive Egophoric inflection
In all other persons but 1st, the conjugation are alike with Sensory conjugation but Egophoric marker -y is added and the vowel is short.
In 1st person, the epistemic marker is -e, and what are intransitive subject markers now mark transitive object.

Code: Select all

Egophoric, 3rd person objects 
Masculine object Feminine object   Plural object 
sg1 luk-p-e-k    sg1 luk-p-e-c     sg1 luk-p-e-p
sg2 luk-p-y-o-hu sg2 luk-p-y-e-hu  sg2 luk-p-y-a-hu
M3 kuk-p-y-o-k   M3 luk-p-y-e-k    M3 luk-p-y-a-k
F3 luk-p-y-o-c   F3 luk-p-y-e-c    F3 luk-p-y-a-c
PL3 luk-p-y-o-p  PL3 luk-p-y-e-p   PL3 luk-p-y-a-p

Transitive Fact inflection is similar to the Egophoric one but the epistemic marker is -w instead of -y and1st person forms behave like the others.

Code: Select all

Fact, 3rd person objects 
Masculine object Feminine object   Plural object 
sg1 luk-p-w-o-ya sg1 luk-p-w-e-ya  sg1 luk-p-w-a-ya
sg2 luk-p-w-o-hu sg2 luk-p-w-e-hu  sg2 luk-p-w-a-hu
M3 kuk-p-w-o-k   M3 luk-p-w-e-k    M3 luk-p-w-a-k
F3 luk-p-w-o-c   F3 luk-p-w-e-c    F3 luk-p-w-a-c
PL3 luk-p-w-o-p  PL3 luk-p-w-e-p   PL3 luk-p-w-a-p
In transitive reportative conjugation the object pronoun appaers inside the reported marker.

Code: Select all

Reported, 3rd person objects 
Masculine object   Feminine object    Plural object 
sg1 luk-p-o<ğ>o-ya sg1 luk-p-o<y>o-ya  sg1 luk-p-o<l>o-ya
sg2 luk-p-<ğ>o-hu  sg2 luk-p-o<y>o-hu  sg2 luk-p-o<l>o-hu
M3 kuk-p-o<ğ>o-k   M3 luk-p-o<y>o-k    M3 luk-p-o<l>o-k
F3 luk-p-o<ğ>o-c   F3 luk-p-o<y>o-c    F3 luk-p-o<l>o-c
PL3 luk-p-o<ğ>o-p  PL3 luk-p-o<y>o-p   PL3 luk-p-o<l>o-p

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 17 May 2019 20:09

In imperatives, would first-person egophoricity be a for-real imperative, and second-person egophoricity be a request?

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 18 May 2019 09:48

eldin raigmore wrote:
17 May 2019 20:09
In imperatives, would first-person egophoricity be a for-real imperative, and second-person egophoricity be a request?
Very few languages have first person imperatives.
Imperatives are non-factual, by definition, so I think expressing epistemic authority (or any other epistemic category) over information on an action that still has not been done is redundant.

Maybe egophoric imperative could be stronger than a non-egophoric, if the same categories are utilized in imperatives too.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 19 May 2019 02:41

I would have thought that with a first-person-egophoric imperative the speaker might be asserting control over the addressee,
while with a second-person-egophoric imperative the speaker might be yielding control to the addressee.

In both cases I was thinking 2nd-person imperative; that is, the person being commanded or requested would be the addressee.

I hadn’t considered 1st-person-inclusive dual-or-plural imperatives, where the entity being commanded or requested is a group containing both the speaker and the addressee (and maybe someone else?).

But what would it mean for that kind of imperative to have 1st person egophoticity, or second-person egophoricity, or third-person egophoricity?

—————

Are you sure egophoricity has to do only with epistemic moods/modes/modalities? Could it not also have something to do with deontic moods/modes/modalities? Or alethic moods/modes/modalities?

If it doesn’t in any natlang, why couldn’t it still in some conlang? Maybe you don’t want it in this conlang, but maybe you think it might work out in another conlang.

——————

Would “Bismillah” or “Inshallah” or “if God wills it” or “as God wills” or “God wills it”, be third-person-egophoricity?
Or would “God only knows” be a better candidate or illustration of third-person egophoricity?

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 19 May 2019 09:49

So you think there could be three kinds of egophoricity, 1) speaker having epistemic authority, 2) addressee having epistemic authority, and 3) somebody else having epistemic authority.

First, I think it shouldn't be called egophoricity. "Ego" means "I" anyways. (tu-phoricity?)
Second, what would be their functions. Apparently, if I tell what you think, you have the epistemic authority over your thoughts, but if I report them I cannot borrow your epistemic authority. It's rather the quotative evidential - one whose source is known.

Like I said, egophoricity usually has a role in assertions and questions. Maybe, it could distinguish commands and requests, requests having some other epistemic marker but EGO, and it would surely be deontic modality rather than an epistemic category.
If I remember correctly, modality is defined as the speakers stance to the proposition. Evidentiality is thus not considered epistemic modality because the source of information is a kind of objective fact. Theoretically it could be closer to alethic modality. I dunno.

I think the FACT marker is much more interesting than egophoricity with respect to your ideas. It's an epistemic category whose source of information doesn't have to be stated because "everybody knows". It's not a theorethical idea, but appaers in many languages that also have egophoricity.
So apparently the addressee also knows. It could make interesting imperatives. "It's a fact that you should make your homework."

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 19 May 2019 21:08

Fascinating!
Thanks for this!

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 21 May 2019 18:55

I'm still not happy with the verb agreement marking. Anyways, I go on with the verb.

The verb template is:

root-TENSE-MOOD-EPIST.C-PERSON

The idea for the mood system is borrowed from Greenlandic. So there are finite moods for subordinate clauses as well, where many other languages would use conjunctions or nonfinite clauses.

Moods of main clauses:
Indicative: -p
Imperative: -c
Potential: -t

Moods of subordinate clauses:
Temporal: -b
Conditional: -ʁ
Complemental/relative: -y
[to be continued]


Tenses are simple:
Beside the unmarked "Present" tense that also appears the basic tense in narratives, there are two relative tenses: Perfect (or retrospectative) and Prospective.

There may also be Passive and Anti-Passive voices, idk. The cross-referencing system is still in progress.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 25 May 2019 19:09

Something on nouns:

Three genders
- Masculine
- Feminine
- Plural (There are many pluralia-tantum words and singulatives are usual.)

Five cases
- Direct (The case of subjects and arguments)
- Exclamative (The case of language-external topics/subjects that appear in the context of the speech partners, and the case of exclamations like "Look, an airplane!".)
- Genitive (Maybe will also have the dative function as well, I'm not sure.)
- Locative/Oblique (The case expressing place, time, and manner. Usually adjuncts. I'm not sure if (Anti-)Passive will have it as the case of by-arguments.)
- Essive (The case of predicatives, either with a copular verb or without it)

Specificness will probably be coded in the verb, syntax, or just "context".

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 30 May 2019 16:36

The language has a split alignment so that the perfect (which does not equal perfective) has an absolutive-ergative alingment while the other tense/aspects have a nominative-accusative alignment. Morpholologically, there is though no difference between Nominative and Accusative. The difference is syntactic and lexical.

Verbs in non-perfect forms have two person paradigms coding Transitive and Intransitive. The Transitive paradigm presupposes an object, so môkpiĝ means 'I killed him' instead of just 'I killed'. All transitive verbs can be intrantivized and made unergative by using the Intransitive paradigm. môkpi means 'I killed (something)'. There is also a passive form môkpaĝ 'He got killed'.

Verbs in the perfect differ in that they only code the patient. môkpaň 'He is killed.' The agent can be coded be an Ergative preposition. Lom môkpaň 'I have killed him.' whose more literal translation is 'By-me he is killed.'

The exact verb morphology is still in progress.

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