Omzinian Scrap thread

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread Máʐuqpo

Post by Omzinesý » 07 Nov 2017 13:41

I'll call this language Máʐuqpo ['mɒuʐk͡po]

The root is /máʐ/ and /uqp/ a root used for deriving names of languages. /o/ is an article for proper nouns.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 24 Nov 2017 15:12

Revising the tense system

There are two absolute tenses: Present and Past.
They can combine with three relative tenses: anterior, simultaneous, and posterior.

Present + posterior = prospective (or future)
Past + posterior = past prospective

Present + simultaneous = habitual
Past + simultaneous = past habitual present

Present + anterior = present perfect
Past + anterior = past perfect

The relative tenses can be used without the absolute tenses as converbs.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 06 Jan 2018 20:35

Ideas fpr Proto-Vtayn-Mhilva

Phonotactic patterns are:

1. (s/f)CVC(C)
2. (s/f)CVCVC(C) (stress on the second syllable)

Unstressed syllables have 5V system (i, e, a, u, o). Stressed syllables also have two diphthongs (ai, au).

Vtayn also has partial reduplication, like PIE perfect. The first consonant is repeated and a vowel is added. It can make CVC stems CVCVC stems.


Vtayn
Unstressed vowels disappear.
2. becomes CCVC

i = i
u = u
a = a

e => ie
o => uo

ai => e
au => o

All Vtayn stems are either:
a) CVC(C) where the first consonant can be reduplicated to C1aC1VC or C1iC1VC
b) or CCVC where the derivational affix can be added as an infix. CaCVC or CiCVC




Mhilva CVCVC stems either
a) have metathesis CCVVC
b) the intervocalis consonant disappears CVVC

That creates long vowels and centralizing diphthongs.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread Project XVII

Post by Omzinesý » 11 Jul 2018 19:03

Ideas for a Slavic lang in Balkan:

- Cases reduced to 4: nominative (accusative), dative (genitive, locative~prepositional), instrumental, vocative.
- Both definite and indefinite declension (old genitives preserved as indefinite nominatives)
- Neuter gender merges with Masculine (not very Balkan I know)
- The Slavic tense-aspect system of 3 imperfective tenses and 2 perfective tenses.
The perfective non-past always has the stress on the prefix próćta 'I will write' vs. proćtá 'I wrote'

Vowels
i, ɨ, u <i, ы, у> <i, ï, u>
e, ə, o <е, ъ, о> <e, ë, o>
a <а> <a>

Consonants
p, t, k <п, т, к> <p, t k>
b, d, g <б, д, г> <b, d, g>
t͡s, t͡ʃ, t͡ɕ <ц, ч, чь> <c, č, ć>
s, ʃ, ɕ <с, ш, шь> <s, š, ś>
z, ʒ, ʑ <з, ж, жь> <z, ž, ź>
m, n nʲ~ɲ <м, н, нь> <m, n, ń>
r, (rʲ), l, lʲ~ʎ <р, (рь), л, ль> <r, (r’), l, l’>
f, x <ф, х> < f, h>
v, j <в, j> <v, j>

- All consonants are palatalized after front vowels.
- /t/ merges with /t͡s/ before /i/.
In some dialect it also happens before /e/ and [tʲ] doesn't appear at all.
- /d/ is also affricated to [dz] before /i/, but that's not phonemic
- Palatal sibilants and affricate dont appear before /ɨ/ or /ə/, and post-velar ssibilants and affricate dont appear before /i/ or /e/.
- There is a dialectal difference how the soft nasal and liquids are pronounced. In dialect 1) they are nʲ, rʲ, lʲ, while in dialect 2) they are ɲ, ʎ, ʑ>
In dialect 1) the non-palatalized variants merge with the palatalized ones before /i/ or /e/.
In dialect 2) the palatalized trill always merges with /ʑ/.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 11 Jul 2018 19:23

Preliminary declensions

Masculine definite
NOM -zero
DAT -u
INSTR -om, em
VOK -e

Masculine indefinite
NOM -a
DAT -u
INSTR -on, -en
VOK -a

Feminine definite
NOM -a
DAT -e (or -i ?)
INSTR -ëm, -em
VOK -o

Feminite indefinite
NOM -i
DAT -e
INSTR -ën, -en
VOK -i

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 17 Jul 2018 12:45

There are primarily preverbless verbs like pisac 'be writing/ usually write' that can be made perfective with a preverb propisac 'write'
There are also primary preverbed verb like popisac 'to sign' that form their imperfective forms from the l-participle, which is always imperfective, propisal 'he was writing/used to write' Budu pisalëm 'I am writing/ usually write.' lit 'I will be [the one having written].'

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread XIIX

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Aug 2018 21:00

Consonants have a prestopped alternation, marked ().
p (pp) t (tt) k (kk)
f s x h
m (bm) n (dn) ŋ (gŋ)
l (dl) ʟ (gʟ)
ɾ (dɾ)
j (ɟj)

Basic 7-triangle
i u
e o
ɛ ɔ
a

Verbs code evidentiality/egophoricity:
EGO
DIRECT EVIDENCE
GENRAL KNOWLEDGE
INDIRECT EVIDENCE

Proximate and distal "articles" of nouns, which verbs also agree.

Cases are quite Turkish:
Direct
Lative-Dative
Locative
Ablative
Instrumental

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 31 Aug 2018 10:46

A language where a consonant can appear only word-initially.

Normal word patterns are:

CV.V(N)
CV.SV(N)

*Where S stands for a semivowel.
*Where N stands for n ŋ which also nasalize the following vowel, like in Mandarin.

Inflection is mostly done with nonal changes and mutations of the first consonant.

p t̯ t k kʷ
f s x
m n̯ n ŋ ŋʷ
l̯ l ʟ
r
w j

All sonorants can be prestopped.

w and j can be geminated (they are the only consonants that can appear inter-vocally).
Non-geminate /w/ and /j/ are written <w> and <y> respectively and <u> and <i> when geminated.

i u
e o
ɛ ɔ
a

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread XIX

Post by Omzinesý » 20 Oct 2018 11:44

A Uralic lang more or less closely related to Finnic. Only basic 5 vowel system.

Nouns have three declensions, where distinction between Nominative and Accusative is made with changing the last vowel.

i-stem
NOM -i
ACC -e
(Estonian meri - mere 'sea')

a-stems
NOM - zero
ACC -a
(Estonian linn - linna 'town')

u-stems are analogical to i-stems
NOM -u
ACC -o


A problem is how Slavic feminines ending in -a are handled. Finnish has many loan words that have -a in modern Swedish but -u is Finnish (skola - koulu 'school'). Old Scandinavic apparently had a higher ending vowel. This adaptation could be generalized for Slavic loans, as well.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 30 Jan 2019 08:33

My next project will be something morphologically complex.
My latest projects have been morphonologically relatively simple, which allows me concentrate on syntax and still keep the lang consistent. Too complex projects tend to explode and I get messed with them. In Kahichali I just couldn't handle the incorporations.
But the next project will have cross referencing on verbs, many conjugations, a complex TAME system etc. One alternative is to revive Mhilva http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Mhilva
Things would be easier, if I had a proto-lang from which to derive the descendant's complex paradigms, but I never do.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 31 Jan 2019 05:56

Omzinesý wrote:
30 Jan 2019 08:33
My next project will be something morphologically complex.
My latest projects have been morphonologically relatively simple, which allows me concentrate on syntax and still keep the lang consistent. Too complex projects tend to explode and I get messed with them. In Kahichali I just couldn't handle the incorporations.
But the next project will have cross referencing on verbs, many conjugations, a complex TAME system etc. One alternative is to revive Mhilva http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Mhilva
Things would be easier, if I had a proto-lang from which to derive the descendant's complex paradigms, but I never do.
1. Assuming the TAM in TAME stands for Tense, Aspect, and Modality/Mode/Mood; what does the E stand for?
2. Could it stand for Evidentiality?
3. Do you plan to mention Voice and/or Polarity?

————

(Other minor features of verbs include mirativity, validationality, and pluractionality. I’m sure you already know that.)

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 31 Jan 2019 11:54

eldin raigmore wrote:
31 Jan 2019 05:56
Omzinesý wrote:
30 Jan 2019 08:33
My next project will be something morphologically complex.
My latest projects have been morphonologically relatively simple, which allows me concentrate on syntax and still keep the lang consistent. Too complex projects tend to explode and I get messed with them. In Kahichali I just couldn't handle the incorporations.
But the next project will have cross referencing on verbs, many conjugations, a complex TAME system etc. One alternative is to revive Mhilva http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Mhilva
Things would be easier, if I had a proto-lang from which to derive the descendant's complex paradigms, but I never do.
1. Assuming the TAM in TAME stands for Tense, Aspect, and Modality/Mode/Mood; what does the E stand for?
2. Could it stand for Evidentiality?
3. Do you plan to mention Voice and/or Polarity?



————

(Other minor features of verbs include mirativity, validationality, and pluractionality. I’m sure you already know that.)
1)2) Yes, yes TAME is a category Tense-Aspect-Mood-Evidentiality. It's "generally used", not my invention. They often coappear in one category. Though petsonally I have started to think of the mood has any single meaning and should still be devided in smaller categories.

3) Voice, in the prototypical situation, is different from TAME. I don't know if it will appear.

How does validationality differ from evidentiality?
Pluractionality is a new handy term, thanks. I have used the category without knowing the name.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 01 Feb 2019 00:23

I tri d to answer and lost it. I’ll try again.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 01 Feb 2019 15:43

Omzinesý wrote:
31 Jan 2019 11:54
1)2) Yes, yes TAME is a category Tense-Aspect-Mood-Evidentiality. It's "generally used", not my invention. They often coappear in one category. Though personally I have started to think of the mood has any single meaning and should still be devided in smaller categories.
3) Voice, in the prototypical situation, is different from TAME. I don't know if it will appear.
How does validationality differ from evidentiality?
Pluractionality is a new handy term, thanks. I have used the category without knowing the name.
I have heard of and seen TAM. I had never previously seen nor heard of TAME.

Among verbal features, the “big five” are, so I have read, in alphabetical order (if English is our metalanguage):
* Aspect
* Modality/Mode/Mood
* Polarity
* Tense
* Voice

(Often these are “the big six”, because various grammarians, in describing various languages, find it necessary to distinguish one of Modality or Mode or Mood from the other two.)

I once read a definition of “verbal auxiliary word” which required a word to help specify one of those “big five (or six)” features, possibly along with others, in order to be called a verbal auxiliary word.

The minor verbal features of which I am aware and can call to mind readily at the moment are:
* evidentiality
* mirativity
* validationality
* pluractionality

See https://books.google.com/books?id=LC3Df ... cs&f=false and following pp., for a discussion of evidentiality, mirativity, and validationality, and the difficulty of teasing them apart from TAM, and in particular of telling evidentiality from validationality.

Also see https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/q ... -accidents for a more sensible order than “alphabetical order by English term”.

Evidentiality and mirativity and validationality are all related to alethic and/or epistemic mode or mood; but they aren’t the same as such modes or moods, and also aren’t the same as each other.

Epistemic mood is about how sure the speaker is of what they are saying.

Evidentiality is about how or why they can be that sure; what kind of evidence they have.

Validationality is a kind of “very certain”, especially if it contrasts with how sure the speaker was moments ago, or how sure the addressee or some third person is. It opposes dubitativity, but isn’t precisely its opposite. in my opinion it is quite frequently entangled semantically or pragmatically with the “necessarily” alethic mode or mood.

Mirativity is about how surprising the speaker finds the true thing they just said. If the speaker hasn’t yet wrapped their head around that information, they’ll mark it as mirative. Possibly they’re still hanging on to doubt about their statement, in spite of now having convincing evidence of its truth.

Apparently you already found out about pluractionality!

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 04 Feb 2019 16:59

eldin raigmore wrote:
01 Feb 2019 15:43
Evidentiality and mirativity and validationality are all related to alethic and/or epistemic mode or mood; but they aren’t the same as such modes or moods, and also aren’t the same as each other.

Epistemic mood is about how sure the speaker is of what they are saying.

Evidentiality is about how or why they can be that sure; what kind of evidence they have.

Validationality is a kind of “very certain”, especially if it contrasts with how sure the speaker was moments ago, or how sure the addressee or some third person is. It opposes dubitativity, but isn’t precisely its opposite. in my opinion it is quite frequently entangled semantically or pragmatically with the “necessarily” alethic mode or mood.
Isn't being "very certain" just epistemic modality?
You are not mentioning egophoricity. Or is validationality just another name for it?

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 04 Feb 2019 17:20

Omzinesý wrote:
04 Feb 2019 16:59
Isn't being "very certain" just epistemic modality?
In the same sense that negative polarity is “just” irrealis mood, maybe.
It’s clearly related.
IIUC validationality contains a built-in contrast with either the speaker’s previous degree of certainty, or with some non-first-person’s degree of certainty.
Like retrospective or “perfect” “tenses”; “present perfect” is about an anterior or past or completed event (or whatever), that has present or ongoing relevance. There’s a built-in contrast or comparison.
People whose L1 has no retrospective, tend to use an L2’s retrospective as “recent past”; especially if their L1 has degrees-of-remoteness but the L2 doesn’t.
People whose L1 doesn’t have middle voice tend to have trouble using it correctly in L2 that does have it.
I bet the same is true of validationality.
If you’re having difficulty, it seems that, from what Payne says, you’re in good company.
It appears validationality contrasts with evidentiality moreso than with epistemic mood. Or that it’s confused with evidentiality moreso than with mood. I am not an expert, and my L1 has neither evidentiality nor validationality nor mirativity.
Omzinesý wrote:
04 Feb 2019 16:59
You are not mentioning egophoricity. Or is validationality just another name for it?
I didn’t mention egophoricity because I didn’t think of it; it’s not on the list from Tom E. Payne’s Describing Morphosyntax I was using.
I doubt egophoricity is the same as validationality in every language that has either of them. For some languages maybe they are the same. But perhaps some languages have both.
I think it’s a good think to consider, especially if there’s morphology about it.

————————————————————

Did you get a chance to read any of the docs I indicated to you? In particular, did you read pp 252-253 of Payne’s D.M.?

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 02 Aug 2019 12:19

Random idea I may use in some lang:

There are't very many onset clusters but t, c, and k can be followed by a lateral that assimilates with the POA of the stop: tl, cʎ, kʟ.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 06 Aug 2019 21:26

A random idea for some future lang

Vowels have three suprasegmentals 1) short vowel with a neutral tone 2) long vowel with a rising tone 3) long vowel with a lowering tone.

Written
a
á
à

Cyrillic
а
аь
аъ

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 07 Aug 2019 06:35

Omzinesý wrote:
02 Aug 2019 12:19
Random idea I may use in some lang:

There are't very many onset clusters but t, c, and k can be followed by a lateral that assimilates with the POA of the stop: tl, cʎ, kʟ.
You could also maybe do /p̼l̼/, corresponding to simple onset /p/.
Omzinesý wrote:
06 Aug 2019 21:26
A random idea for some future lang

Vowels have three suprasegmentals 1) short vowel with a neutral tone 2) long vowel with a rising tone 3) long vowel with a lowering tone.

Written
a
á
à

Cyrillic
а
аь
аъ
The use of the Slavic hard and soft signs for tone is interesting. Would there be a historical origin for that, or would they just be arbitrary tone letters borrowed from Cyrillic?

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý » 07 Aug 2019 18:08

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
07 Aug 2019 06:35
Omzinesý wrote:
02 Aug 2019 12:19
Random idea I may use in some lang:

There are't very many onset clusters but t, c, and k can be followed by a lateral that assimilates with the POA of the stop: tl, cʎ, kʟ.
You could also maybe do /p̼l̼/, corresponding to simple onset /p/.
I think linguo-labials are a bit too rare.
And the system doesn't have to be that harmonic.

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
07 Aug 2019 06:35

Omzinesý wrote:
06 Aug 2019 21:26
A random idea for some future lang

Vowels have three suprasegmentals 1) short vowel with a neutral tone 2) long vowel with a rising tone 3) long vowel with a lowering tone.

Written
a
á
à

Cyrillic
а
аь
аъ
The use of the Slavic hard and soft signs for tone is interesting. Would there be a historical origin for that, or would they just be arbitrary tone letters borrowed from Cyrillic?
That's just an idea to be used in some language.
The idea behind the orthography is rather to use the soft and hard signs to mark length and because the long vowels happen to have tone the i-sign is used for rising tone and u-sign for lowering tone. /u/ is phonetically low while/i/ is high.

I think some Caucasian languages use <ъ> for the glottal stop so it could be the source of a high/rising tone, but my idea was to use it for the lowering one. So probably that is just an orthographic choice because Cyrillic alphabet doesn't like accents.

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