My hatelang: Omlűt

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by gokupwned5 » 12 Aug 2016 16:15

You should check out '''f'f'f'f''ff'ff'f'f'f'f'f''''f1. It is a very good read.

/https://www.reddit.com/r/conlangs/comme ... h=d0be94db

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Aug 2016 22:49

Interesting, a similar approach though different in not being naturalistic at all, IIUC.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » 13 Aug 2016 18:13

Creyeditor wrote:Well, I am currently revising some stuff in my files and transferring it to the forum and ordering it. Right now I have a hard time coming up with some of the complex sentences shimobaatar asked for.
No worries, take however much time you need, of course.
Creyeditor wrote: Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë
skusp am mamambam qa strast\_iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of mamambam 3SG out_of be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express it in Mamambam.
Looks cool. Sorry if this is explained somewhere I'm accidentally overlooking, but what is Mamambam?

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Aug 2016 18:18

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Well, I am currently revising some stuff in my files and transferring it to the forum and ordering it. Right now I have a hard time coming up with some of the complex sentences shimobaatar asked for.
No worries, take however much time you need, of course.
Creyeditor wrote: Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë
skusp am mamambam qa strast\_iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of mamambam 3SG out_of be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express it in Mamambam.
Looks cool. Sorry if this is explained somewhere I'm accidentally overlooking, but what is Mamambam?
It's another conlang in my conworld, spoken by some dryad-like, pacifistic, elvish, tree-hugging people. So basically the opposite of Bólks, where Omlűt is spoken.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » 13 Aug 2016 21:32

Creyeditor wrote: It's another conlang in my conworld, spoken by some dryad-like, pacifistic, elvish, tree-hugging people. So basically the opposite of Bólks, where Omlűt is spoken.
Ahh, got it. Have you posted anything about it before?

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Aug 2016 21:48

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: It's another conlang in my conworld, spoken by some dryad-like, pacifistic, elvish, tree-hugging people. So basically the opposite of Bólks, where Omlűt is spoken.
Ahh, got it. Have you posted anything about it before?
I think I didn't. Mamambam (the conlang) is very euphonic (to me) and really a bit to regular. It is not related to Omlűt. Here is a sample sentence (modelled after a song *here*):

Lamkram buditbam bakabibam, nutatun lu yusar!
/lamkram buditbam bakabibam, nutatun lu jusar/
[ˈlam.kram ˈbu.dit.bam ˈba.ka.bi.bam, ˈnu.ta.tun ˈlu ˈju.sar]
lam-k-r-a-m budit-b-Ø-a-m ba-kabi-b-Ø-a-m, nuta-t-Ø-u-n lu yu-s-Ø-a-r!
be-PASS-PST-REA-DUR day-INA-SG-DEF-NOM ADJ-sadness-INA-SG-DEF-NOM, carve-ACT-PRS-IMP-INGR NEG 1.-M-SG-DEF-ACC
It's been a bad day, please don't carve a picture of me (into a tree).
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » 13 Aug 2016 22:05

Creyeditor wrote: I think I didn't. Mamambam (the conlang) is very euphonic (to me) and really a bit to regular. It is not related to Omlűt. Here is a sample sentence (modelled after a song *here*):
Well, I like the looks of the sample here. It sounds like its design goals are somewhat like the opposite of those for Omlűt, similar to how the cultures of the speakers are opposites.

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Aug 2016 22:08

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: I think I didn't. Mamambam (the conlang) is very euphonic (to me) and really a bit to regular. It is not related to Omlűt. Here is a sample sentence (modelled after a song *here*):
Well, I like the looks of the sample here. It sounds like its design goals are somewhat like the opposite of those for Omlűt, similar to how the cultures of the speakers are opposites.
True [:)]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 19 Aug 2016 22:50

shimobaatar wrote:Could we perhaps see an example without a nominal predicate [...]?
And here it is1 [:)]

Xa szokolátsraigtvirs u enilbëmë.
xa szokolats-ragt-virs u en-ilb-ëmë
DEO chocolate-bake-part INDEF.ACC VBLZ.TR-food-1SG.PFV
I really want to eat a chocolate cookie.

The deontical necessity marker here marks more of a desire than a general obligation. I still use the glossing DEO, beause it can never be used for epistemic necessity.
Here's a tree. I assumed a null pronoun as the subject, that agrees with the main verb, so basically the person features are moved from specV to V. I could have analyzed the verbal suffix as being the exponent of the subject features in specV. It would have worked equally well for this sentence, but it would require some kind of feature copying in sentences with an overt subject.
Spoiler:
Image

1 Also note that the word for 'to eat' is derived from the noun for 'food' by adding a transitive verbalizer, so literally (with English syntax): I want to food a baked chocolate part. [;)]
shimobaatar wrote:Could we perhaps see an example [...] with an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun?
One example to go [;)]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » 20 Aug 2016 20:51

Thank you so much for taking the time to do all these! You've clearly put a lot of work in.

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 05 Oct 2016 22:21

So after looking really hard at all of my Omlueuet sentences, I noticed that there are next to no sentences of the dummy-pronoun-type. There is however another type of embedded clauses: nominalized verbs. Verbs are nominalized with the suffix -ërë. These act as noun phrases with regard to their syntactic distribution and their ability to take the indefinite article. The indefinite article now takes a somehow different meaning. It shows that the action is atelic, aimless or undefined wrt its duration. The verbs - even though nominalized - can still take modal particles and regular accusative objects like finite verbs.

Xa skradsërë u áspst trümftë.
xa skrads-ërë u asp/a-st trimf/u-të
DEO linger-NMLZ INDEF leave/-3.PL.PFV man/-NOM.PL.M
The men left to wander. or The men left because they had to wander.

Trömfën sprapërë sprumëmë.
trimf\au-ën sprap-ërë sprum-ëmë
man\-PL.M.ACC perceive-NMLZ try-1.SG.PFV
I tried to see the men.

One could say, that these clauses are embedded broad VP's or even TP's, that act as nominal phrases, because of the nominalizing morpheme, which is a nominal head.
Spoiler:
Image
I guess they could also be used recursively:

Trömfën sprapërë sprumërë áspst.
trimf\au-ën sprap-ërë sprum-ërë asp/a-st
man\-PL.M.ACC perceive-NMLZ try-NMLZ leave/-3.PL.PFV
They left to try to see the men.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 16 Nov 2016 00:11

So, all the pictures somehow vanished, but maybe they will eventually re-appear.
17. Noun phrases
As you already saw, verb phrases have a relatively rigid order. Noun phrases on the other hand have a relatively free word order. The only restriction is that adpositions always occur in the second position of noun phrases (maybe deuteropositions?). Note that this means that they can ´be placed before or after the noun. Adjectives and determiners agree with the head noun in number, gender and case. There is an indefinite article, but no definite article.

Examples:

írdën ünkën ühën
ird\i-ën unk\i-ën u\i-ën
loudest\-FEM.SG.COM roar\-FEM.SG.COM INDEF\-\-FEM.SG.COM
with a very loud roar

"Tréndar Barda" frímpëstë ühëstë
"Tréndar#Barda" frimp\i-ëstë u\i-ëstë
conlang old\-M.SG.NOM INDEF\-M.SG.NOM
an old conlang

Szokolátsraigtvirs u
szokolats-ragt-virs u
chocolate-bake-part INDEF
a chocolate cookie

Sauczesnuz ils krüptzurd ils
sau-cze-snuz-0 ils kript-zurd-0 ils
NMLZ-ADJLZ-blizzard-ACC on footprint-ACC on
in the footprint in the snow

Friz irg munt
friz irg munt-0
two while day-ACC
for two days

Skralk i
skralk-0 i
plant-ACC in_front_of
In front of the plant

Omlűt am
Omlűt am
Omlűt out_of
in Omlűt

zhórfën grim
zhurf\au-ën grim
word\-ACC.PL.M six
six words


Skráilmët i
skralm/ia-et i
mud/-ACC.PL.F in_front_of
in front of the mud

röbsët whéndët öhët
rubs/ai-et whind/ai-et u/ai-et
place/-ACC.PL.F dry-ACC.PL.F INDEF-ACC.PL.F
dry places

If you have any questions on that feel free to ask. I am planning on drawing a tree for the Preposition Phrases and they will involve (impossible) movement. I am so excited [xD]

Default word order
Spoiler:
Image
NP internal scrambling
Spoiler:
Image
P2 order in the PP
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 11 Jan 2017 19:57

Now we are done with the syntax, I think. Let's move on to the lexicon.
18. Numerals
The numeral system in Omlűt is additive. Yes additive, not addictive. It's like the numeral system in roman script, except in spoken language. Take for example the numeral 38 cúftszüstvuts . It consists of cuft three szist lit. nut, here 15 vuts lit. ball, here 20 (plus the umlauts) and 3+15+20 = 38. Most of the bases are actually calqued/loaned from different source languages with different bases in a regular system. Most of them are also inspired by real life examples. Here are all the bases with their numeral and literal meaning up to 30.

0,5 thurp cloth strip
1 gag burden
2 friz pair
3 cuft -
4 flunt reel, spool
5 mirz book
6 grim straw
10 frask fat one
12 klirt twelve
15 szist nut
16 glurn giant
20 vuts ball
24 grisk ladder
25 snaft bush, shrub
30 phisp basket

Yeah, so actually the only two numerals in this language is three and twelve. Other numerals are formed by adding up the smallest amount of 'bases' as balanced as possible, e.g. 38=15+20+3 and not 30+5+3 or 10+6+15+3+4. Also no base can occur twice.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Iyionaku » 12 Jan 2017 17:27

Creyeditor wrote:Also no base can occur twice.
Does that mean then that Omlűt speakers' highest reachable numeral is phispsnaftgriskvutsglurnszistklirtfraskgrimmirzfluntcuftfrizgagthurp, meaning 173.5?

Regarding this numeral, I start to understand why you call this your "hatelang" [:D] (sorry)
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Jan 2017 17:47

Iyionaku wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Also no base can occur twice.
Does that mean then that Omlűt speakers' highest reachable numeral is phispsnaftgriskvutsglurnszistklirtfraskgrimmirzfluntcuftfrizgagthurp, meaning 173.5?
I did not give you all the bases, but you are right: there is an upper bound for Omlueuet numbers. Future Umlueuet will just borrow the whole number system from somewhere elsewhere.
Iyionaku wrote:Regarding this numeral, I start to understand why you call this your "hatelang" [:D] (sorry)
I take this as a compliment [:)]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Anwelda » 14 Jan 2017 23:16

shanoxilt wrote:Does anyone else have a similar project that consists of only features they despise?
I do. It's a language called tútarä that I decided to create as a challenge, to see if I would be able to create a language I would not like. Turned I actually like it, but only because I became attached to it (since it was my first conlang).

By the way, this is an interesting language we can see here. Well done, Creyeditor.

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 14 Jan 2017 23:54

Anwelda wrote:
shanoxilt wrote:Does anyone else have a similar project that consists of only features they despise?
I do. It's a language called tútarä that I decided to create as a challenge, to see if I would be able to create a language I would not like. Turned I actually like it, but only because I became attached to it (since it was my first conlang).
Nice, a brother in mind [:)]
Anwelda wrote:By the way, this is an interesting language we can see here. Well done, Creyeditor.
Thank you [:)]

19. Personal Pronouns

Omlueuet has a full set of pronouns, distinguishing person, number and clusivity. Since it is pro-drop for subject, these forms are not used that often. Another set of pronouns that is rarely used are the comitative forms, functioning as possessive forms. Typically nouns that are usually possessed are assumed to be possessed by the most prominent animate referent in the discourse, unless they stand with an indefinite article. Here is the list of the pronoun stems.

1.SG um
2.SG it
3.SG qa
1.DUI ja
1.DUE ati
2.DU tam
3.DU umit
1.PLI ani
1.PLE asitar
2.PL sitat
3.PL sat

Examples with pronouns:

Qahëtë spröpëm.
qa-ëtë sprap\iu-ëm
3.SG-MASC.SG.DAT see\-1.SG.IPFV
I see him.

Skups qöt spráp.
skups qa\iu-t sprap\a
NEG 3.SG\-N.SG.DAT percieve\3.SG.PFV
He does not hear it.

Qahëtë erdörmëm.
qa-ëtë er-darm\iu-ëm
3.SG-MASC.SG.DAT AUG-greet-1.SG.IPFV
I greet you loudly.

Omlűt ki qa.
omlűt ki qa
Omlűt COP 3SG
This is Omlűt.

Xa szokolötsrë ümëstë.
[ha ʂo.ko.ˈløt.srə ˈy.məs.tə]
xa szokolats\iu-rë um\i-ëstë
DEO chocolate\-COM.SG.M 1.SG\-NOM.SG.M
I need chocolate!


Examples without pronouns:

Trem knólfs.
trim\a knulf\au-s
disappear\3.SG.PFV courage\-NOM.SG.FEM
My courage vanished.

Qahëtë spröpëm.
qa-ëtë sprap\iu-ëm
3.SG-MASC.SG.DAT see\-1.SG.IPFV
I see him.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Anwelda » 15 Jan 2017 10:40

Creyeditor wrote:Omlueuet has a full set of pronouns, distinguishing person, number and clusivity.
What about reflexive pronouns? Does Omlueuet have some?

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 17 Jan 2017 23:12

I hadn't thought about this before and now that I've been thinking some time about it, I think I've come to a solution.
Reflexive pronouns are used for different purposes in different languages. Here are three sentences where some languages use reflexive pronouns.
  • He washes his own hands.
  • He can do it himself.
  • They talk to each other.
  • I hit myself.
  • He hits himself.
1. In the first example, Omlueuet uses no possessive pronoun at all.

Wáusprë khand.
wasp\au-rë khand-0
hands\-F.ACC.DU wash-3SG
He washes (his own) hands.

If you use a comitative pronoun, you would hint at the fact, that the hands belong to someone else.

Wáusprë qatë khand.
wasp\au-rë qa-të khand-0
hands\-F.ACC.DU 3SG-M.COM.SG wash-3SG.IPFV
He washes (someone else's) hands.

2. In the second sentence, where the reflexive pronoun is used as an intensifier, in Omlueuet you would probably use an intensifying derivational prefix on the verb, e.g. er- as in:

Qa erstrast.
qa er-strast-0
3SG.ACC INT-be.able-3SG.IPFV
He can do it himself.

The exact interpretation of this sentence however does depend on the pragmatic context.

3. Reciprocal action is indicated, again, via verbal morphology. This time the prefix is om-.

Omlutë.
om-lut-të
RECIP-speak-3DU.IPFV
They (two) talk to each other.

4. Reflexive actions with the first or second person as an agent/patient use the normal object pronouns.

Um grűlbëm.
um-0 grulb/iu-ëm
1SG-ACC hit/-1SG.IPFV
I hit myself

5. In true reflexive actions with a third person, a reduplicated form of the third person pronoun is used as the reflexive pronoun. This is rarely used (see above) and only used in this very special occasion. In Haspelmaths term it is only used for extroverted reflexives, i.e. verbs that are not normally reflexiv.

Qaqa grulb.
qa~qa-0 grulb-0
3SG~REFL-ACC hit-3SG.IPFV
He hits himself

Qa grulb.
qa-0 grulb-0
3SG-ACC hit-3SG.IPFV
He hits him (someone else).

A lot of introverted reflexives (like wash oneself) are handled with constructions as in 1.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » 30 Jan 2017 22:29

20. Derivational morphology
Purely derivational morphology is expressed by prefixes in Omlűt. Most of them occur on verbs. Interestingly these prefixes have vowels that are not found in roots, this hints at the fact that they once were multi-syllable words of their own.

Derivation on verb:
om- : forms reciprocal verbs
er- : verbal intensifier
czu- : transitivizer, applicative voice
sze- : indicates that an action happens before something else
fo- : indicates a volitional action
Spoiler:
Examples:
lut
to speak

omlut

to speak to each other, to conversate

erlut
to call, to scream

plusp
to carry to somewhere, to carry to someone, to deliver, to give as a a present

erplusp
to carry something heavy; to to carry a child to term, to give birth (to a child)

snrups
to practice, to train, to cultivate, to exercise

ersnrups
to train harder

splurf
to be similar to something, to resemble, to look like something

omsplurf
to be the same

swalk
to wish, to hope

erswalk
to be desperate to, to pray

glubs
to run around in circles

czuglubs
to run around something

sprap
to feel, to percieve

fosprap
to look; to look something up

trim
to disappear

fotrim
to hide

erfotrim
to escape

ki
to be in a certain place or state


erki
to happen

szeherki
to happen before something else
Derivation from verb to nouns:
ug- : agent nominalization
an- : instrument nominalization

Examples:
Spoiler:
lut
to speak, to talk

uglut
spokesman, boss

blun
shine

ugblun
light, a source of illumination (non-figurative)

snrans
to fasten securely; to lock, to tie, to makes something be bound to oneself

ansnrans
belt, strap, cord, rope

trim
to disappear

antrim
magic cap
Derivation on nouns:
fe- : collective prefix
en- : forms a transitive verb from a noun

Examples:
Spoiler:
snru
predator; enemy, warrior, invader

fesnru
the axis of evil, an enemy nation

gnarz
rain, raindrops

fegnarz
rainstorm

zhabt
lunatic, madman, outcast, inhabitant of a mental home

enzhabt
to make s.o. mad, to annoy s.o., to bother s.o.


ilb

food, meal


enilb
to eat, to dine
Derivations from noun to adjectives:
cze- : forms an adjective, that describes the quality of a noun

Examples:
Spoiler:
knulf
courage, toughness

czeknulf
brave

krulm
round stone, canonball, hard ball

czekrulm
spherical

skrurm
city, town, settlement

czeskrurm
urban, cosmopolitan
Derivations from adjectives to nouns:
sau- : forms a noun from an adjective, that has a certain property

Examples
Spoiler:
svakt
round, circular

sausvakt
circle, disc

szurz
mature, adult; ripe; full grown

sauszurz
adult, a full grown animal; a ripe fruit
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Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

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