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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 30 May 2016 10:38
by shanoxilt
Does anyone else have a similar project that consists of only features they despise?

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 17 Jun 2016 00:40
by Creyeditor
I don't know of any similar projects ...
(Epic necro ahead .... )
How about some verbal inflection:

11. Verbal agreement
Omlűt distinguishes 12 different person in its verbal inflection.6 How do these come about, you might ask. There are three different persons (1st,2nd,3rd) an inclusive vs. exclusive distinction in first person and three grammatical numbers (singular, dual, plural). Dual is used more frequently in verbal conjugation than it is in nominal declension, which sometimes leads to situations where a plural noun might trigger dual agreement. The third person singular is the most unmarked form for all aspects. Verbal agreement markers usually occur without an overt pronoun.
Examples:

Blun ultn.
/blun ultn/
blun ult-n
shine.3SG.IPFV sun-N.SG.NOM
The sun shines.

Qahëtë írdën ünkën ühën erdörmëm
/ˈqa.ə.tə ˈʔiːr.dən ˈʔyn.kən ˈʔy.ən ʔer.ˈdør.mən/
qa-ëtë ird\i-ën unk\i-ën u\i-ën er-darm\iu-ëm
3.SG-MASC.SG.DAT loudest\-FEM.SG.COM roar\-FEM.SG.COM INDEF\-FEM.SG.COM AUG-greet-1.SG.IPFV
I will greet him with a loud roar.

Skusp snrűs enst.
/ʃkuʃp ʃnryːs ʔenʃt/
skusp snru\iu-s ins\a-st
not enemy-N.PL.ACC eat_a_human\-3.PL.PFV
They did not eat up their enemies.

12. Aspects
There are two grammatical aspects in Omlűt: perfective and imperfective. The aspect conjugation is fused with person conjugation. Sometimes perfective aspect is also used with a more past-like meaning.7
Examples:

Szokolátsraigtvirs u enilbëmë.
/ʂo.ko.ˈlaːts.rɛgt.ˈvirs ʔu ʔe.ˈnil.bə.mə/
szokolats\a-ragt\i-virs u en-ilb-ëmë
chocolate-bake-part.ACC INDEF.ACC VLZ.TRANS-food-1.SG.PFV
I ate a chocolate cookie.

Szokolátsraigtvirs u enőlbëm.
/ʂo.ko.ˈlaːts.rɛgt.ˈvirs ʔu ʔe.ˈnøːl.bəm/
szokolats\a-ragt\i-virs u en-ilb\iu-ëm
chocolate-bake-part.ACC INDEF.ACC VLZ.TRANS-food-1.SG.IPFV
I'm eating a chocolate cookie.

13. Other (semi-)inflectional categories.
Verbs can also be nominalized by adding the suffix -<ërë> and are used as nouns. If they are subordinated (e.g. used with an auxiliary verb), they sometimes take a participle suffix -<ënë>.
Examples:

Plank Omlűt am lutërë u am sprűnkëm.
/plank ˈʔom.lyːt ʔam ˈlu.tə.rə ʔu ʔam ˈʃpryːn.kəm/
in_fact omlűt.ACC out_of speak-NMLZ INDEF.ACC out_of draw\-1SG.IPFV
In fact I write "out of" a language in Omlűt.

Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë.8
/ʃkuʃp ʔam ma.ˈmam.bam qa ʃtrøʃt ˈlu.tə.nə/
skusp am mamambam qa strast\-iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of malambam.ACC 3.SG.ACC be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express this in Mamambam.


14. An Overview of verbal inflectional morphology
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

	
      perfective imperfective
1.SG  \0_-ëmë    \iu_-ëm	
2.SG  \a_-ëmë    \i_-ët
3.SG  \a_-0      \0_-0
1.DUI \0_-ësë    \ia_-së
1.DUE \a_-të     \ia_-së	
2.DU  \0_-të     \a_-ëm
3.DU  \iu_-ëmë   \0_-të
1.PLI \a_-Në     \iu_-ë
1.PLE \ia_-st    \a_-ër
2.PL  \i_-st     \a_-ët
3.PL  \a_-st     \a_-së
Example paradigm
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

shine - blun
      perfective imperfective
1.SG  blunëmë blűnëm	
2.SG  blonëmë blünët
3.SG  blon    blun
1.DUI blunësë blönsë
1.DUE blontë  blönsë	
2.DU  bluntë  blonëm
3.DU  blűnëmë bluntë
1.PLI blonnë  blűnë
1.PLE blönst  blonër
2.PL  blünst  blonët
3.PL  blonst  blonsë

6 This is a lie.
7 Mainly because at the time I did the transalation, I sometimes mixed the two up.
8 <strast> is an irregular verb.
Edit: Added phonological forms.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 02:45
by shimobaatar
Everything looks great here so far; hopefully we'll get to see more soon! I can't believe I hadn't seen this thread before now.
Creyeditor wrote: I started Omlűt months ago as a hatelang to include all the linguistic features I don't like. 1.
Creyeditor wrote:1It turns out that I did not succeed. I really like Omlűt now.
Fascinating idea! And heh. [:P]
Creyeditor wrote: The name is inspired by a certain speaker of American English saying the German loanword ⟨Umlaut⟩ as [uːm.laut].2
Out of curiosity, how would you like English speakers to say it?
Creyeditor wrote: Afterwards the name is explained as a conjugated form of ⟨omlut⟩ which means "to conversate, to talk to each other".
How is it conjugated? That is to say, what does the conjugated form mean?
Creyeditor wrote:The dative can be used in many occasions where you would not expect it.
Such as?
Creyeditor wrote: Masculine and feminime are used mostly for inanimate objects, which are thereby divided into two classes. Human nouns are mostly refered to as neuter.
Creyeditor wrote:Dual is used more frequently in verbal conjugation than it is in nominal declension, which sometimes leads to situations where a plural noun might trigger dual agreement.
Interesting!

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 02:55
by GrandPiano
shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: The name is inspired by a certain speaker of American English saying the German loanword ⟨Umlaut⟩ as [uːm.laut].2
Out of curiosity, how would you like English speakers to say it?
I thought the same thing, since that's how I've always said it (substituting [æʊ̯] for [au̯]). According to Wiktionary, it can also be pronounced /ˈʊmlaʊ̯t/ or, in the UK, /ˈʌmlaʊ̯t/, and the pronunciation /ˈuːmlaʊ̯t/ is chiefly American.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 03:04
by qwed117
I've always never said it. But if I had to say it, it would be [əmlɑʔ]

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 03:52
by GrandPiano
qwed117 wrote:I've always never said it. But if I had to say it, it would be [əmlɑʔ]
[o.O]

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 05:39
by wintiver
GrandPiano wrote:
qwed117 wrote:I've always never said it. But if I had to say it, it would be [əmlɑʔ]
[o.O]
That's approximately my pronunciation really. My final <t> sounds typically are realized as glottal stops.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 06:42
by HoskhMatriarch
Umm, all the phonemes in the German word Umlaut are found in major dialects of English, and they're not in any weird order, so you should be able to get closer than that without spending hours practicing new sounds or sequences...

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 06:55
by GrandPiano
wintiver wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
qwed117 wrote:I've always never said it. But if I had to say it, it would be [əmlɑʔ]
[o.O]
That's approximately my pronunciation really. My final <t> sounds typically are realized as glottal stops.
I was just surprised by how radically different your pronunciation is from anything I've heard, especially the /ɑ/ for <au> (although in retrospect, that might not be so strange depending on what mergers your dialect has).

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 08:00
by Sumelic
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Umm, all the phonemes in the German word Umlaut are found in major dialects of English, and they're not in any weird order, so you should be able to get closer than that without spending hours practicing new sounds or sequences...
German /ʊ/ is often quite different in quality from English /ʊ/. My /ʊ/ is even more fronted than my /uː/; the nearest German vowel to it is probably /œ/. So I'd feel a bit odd using it for the first vowel in Umlaut. (The diphthong is also different, although it's not as noticeable since it's not in such a crowded region of the vowel chart, and the gliding direction is distinctive enough to avoid confusion. My /aʊ/ starts out with a fronter vowel than German /aʊ/).

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 24 Jun 2016 12:41
by Creyeditor
shimobaatar wrote:Everything looks great here so far; hopefully we'll get to see more soon! I can't believe I hadn't seen this thread before now.
Thank you [:)]
shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: The name is inspired by a certain speaker of American English saying the German loanword ⟨Umlaut⟩ as [uːm.laut].2
Out of curiosity, how would you like English speakers to say it?
Well in German it's [ˈʔʊm.laʊ̯t] and I think I would be happy if all the u's would be lax. Having the first u a bit fronted is not that big of a deal, it was more the length and timing characteristics, that made the u's so much more prominent, I guess.
shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: Afterwards the name is explained as a conjugated form of ⟨omlut⟩ which means "to conversate, to talk to each other".
How is it conjugated? That is to say, what does the conjugated form mean?
Okay, so the verb stem is the root <lut> 'speak' with a prefix <om-> for reciprocal actions. The verb root shows i-umlaut and u-umlaut. This happens in the 1PL.INCL form of the imperfective, which in other circumstances would have a schwa suffix. This is deleted in the name of the language, because it is so frequently used.

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:The dative can be used in many occasions where you would not expect it.
Such as?
It is used for objects of perception verbs.

Qahëtë spröpëm.
Qa-ëtë sprap\iu-ëm
3.SG-MASC.SG.DAT see\-1.SG.IPFV
I see him.

It is also used for a local adverbial adjunct to verbs, where it relatively clear, if it is referring to a direction, a goal or a stative location.

Stráundstë erblon ultn.
strand\au-stë er-blun\a ult-n
fleet\-FEM.SG.DAT AUG-shine\3.SG.PFV sun-N.SG.NOM
The sun shone at the float so much.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 25 Jun 2016 04:06
by HoskhMatriarch
GrandPiano wrote:
wintiver wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
qwed117 wrote:I've always never said it. But if I had to say it, it would be [əmlɑʔ]
[o.O]
That's approximately my pronunciation really. My final <t> sounds typically are realized as glottal stops.
I was just surprised by how radically different your pronunciation is from anything I've heard, especially the /ɑ/ for <au> (although in retrospect, that might not be so strange depending on what mergers your dialect has).
Well, I'm pretty sure they were using spelling pronunciation, since <au> is usually /ɑ/ in American dialects, and unstressed <u> is usually /ə/.
Sumelic wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Umm, all the phonemes in the German word Umlaut are found in major dialects of English, and they're not in any weird order, so you should be able to get closer than that without spending hours practicing new sounds or sequences...
German /ʊ/ is often quite different in quality from English /ʊ/. My /ʊ/ is even more fronted than my /uː/; the nearest German vowel to it is probably /œ/. So I'd feel a bit odd using it for the first vowel in Umlaut. (The diphthong is also different, although it's not as noticeable since it's not in such a crowded region of the vowel chart, and the gliding direction is distinctive enough to avoid confusion. My /aʊ/ starts out with a fronter vowel than German /aʊ/).
I said that the phonemes were the same, not that they were precisely the same in phonetic detail.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 25 Jun 2016 04:09
by shimobaatar
Creyeditor wrote: Well in German it's [ˈʔʊm.laʊ̯t] and I think I would be happy if all the u's would be lax. Having the first u a bit fronted is not that big of a deal, it was more the length and timing characteristics, that made the u's so much more prominent, I guess.
Ah, OK, that's about what I figured. Thanks for your responses!

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 25 Jun 2016 04:37
by GrandPiano
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
wintiver wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
qwed117 wrote:I've always never said it. But if I had to say it, it would be [əmlɑʔ]
[o.O]
That's approximately my pronunciation really. My final <t> sounds typically are realized as glottal stops.
I was just surprised by how radically different your pronunciation is from anything I've heard, especially the /ɑ/ for <au> (although in retrospect, that might not be so strange depending on what mergers your dialect has).
Well, I'm pretty sure they were using spelling pronunciation, since <au> is usually /ɑ/ in American dialects, and unstressed <u> is usually /ə/.
My dialect (I'm American) distinguishes between /ɒ/ for <au>, <aw>, and some short <o>, and /ɑ/ for broad <a> and most short <o>, which is why I found the /ɑ/ for <au> unusual at first.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 12 Jul 2016 00:32
by Creyeditor
15. Basic word order
The basic word order in Omlűt is XOVS9. Yes, the weirdest word order XOVS. At least that's what I intended. It turns out, that in combination with the marked nominative alignment and subject pro-drop it actually looks quite naturalistic. Most sentences transitive now look more like OV, XOV or XV, which is appears in a lot of prodrop language. Have some examples.

OV10
Qahëtë spröpëm.
qa-ëtë sprap\iu-ëm
3.SG-MASC.SG.DAT see\-1.SG.IPFV
I see him.

XOV
Skusp snrűs enst.
skusp snru\iu-s ins\a-st
not enemy-N.PL.ACC eat_a_human\-3.PL.PFV
They did not eat up their enemies.

XV
Yeksën írdën trem.
yaks\i-ën ird\i-ən trim\a
bang\-COM.SG.FEM loudest\-COM.SG.FEM disappear\3.SG.PFV
It vanished with a bang, louder than anything else around.

XOV
Zhürfmirz am qa fosprapëmë.
zhürfmirz-Ø am qa-Ø fo-sprap-ëmë
dictionary-ACC urban out_of 3.SG-ACC VOL-perceive-1.SG.PFV
I just looked it up in the dictionary.

Intransitive sentences have a XVS or VS order, which is not to bad, if you look at it from a typological perspective.

VS
Blun ultn.
blun ult-n
shine.3.SG.IPFV sun-NEU.SG.NOM
The sun shines.

XVS
Yeksën írdën trem knólfs.
yaks\i-ën ird\i-ən trim\a knulf\au-s
bang\-COM.SG.FEM loudest\-COM.SG.FEM disappear\3.SG.PFV courage\-NOM.SG.FEM
My courage vanished with a bang, louder than anything else around.

In transitive sentences with a full noun phrase subject, it almost feels as if one is just reintroducing the subject due to the marked nominative and the verbal agreement. Something like: "bread he-eats ... oh and he is a robot by the way." The basic orders are OVS and XOVS.

OVS
Krulm kvobs kváugs.
ilf krulm-Ø kvub-s\a kvags-s\au
ball-SG.ACC kick-\3.SG.PFV girl-\F.SG.NOM
The girl kicked the ball.

XOVS

Skups snrűs enst kváugsës.
skups snru\iu-s ins\a-st kvags\au-ës
not enemy-N.PL.ACC eat_a_human\-3.PL.PFV girl-\F.PL.NOM
The girls did not eat up their enemies.

Now you have seen almost the whole ugliness of the Omlűt syntax. I guess my next post will either be about noun phrases or verb phrases.

9 X means adverbial phrase/ prepositional phrase.
10 maybe also XV, since I don't know yet if I consider these real objects.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 12 Jul 2016 00:50
by shimobaatar
Creyeditor wrote: The basic word order in Omlűt is XOVS9. Yes, the weirdest word order XOVS. At least that's what I intended. It turns out, that in combination with the marked nominative alignment and subject pro-drop it actually looks quite naturalistic. Most sentences transitive now look more like OV, XOV or XV, which is appears in a lot of prodrop language. Have some examples.
Creyeditor wrote: Intransitive sentences have a XVS or VS order, which is not to bad, if you look at it from a typological perspective.
Creyeditor wrote: In transitive sentences with a full noun phrase subject, it almost feels as if one is just reintroducing the subject due to the marked nominative and the verbal agreement. Something like: "bread he-eats ... oh and he is a robot by the way." The basic orders are OVS and XOVS.
Creyeditor wrote: Now you have seen almost the whole ugliness of the Omlűt syntax. I guess my next post will either be about noun phrases or verb phrases.
I agree that it's "weird", but it looks like it works just fine, and you've explained things quite clearly and straightforwardly, so I'm afraid I don't have anything in particular to say other than that everything looks great, as usual. I look forward to hearing more about syntax.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 16 Jul 2016 02:53
by Creyeditor
16. Verb phrases
Verb phrases ('broad VPs') in a broader definition include the modal particles, the verb and the object. The narrow definition (narrow VP) excludes the object and is a discontinious constituent, because the modal particles occur before the object. The modal particles express epistemic and deontic modality. An example is the particle xa used for deontic necessity and strong possibility, i.e. something like 'should', 'want' or 'need'.

Xa szokolötsrë ümëstë.
xa szokolats\iu-rë um\i-ëstë
DEO chocolate\-COM.SG.M 1.SG\-NOM.SG.M
I need chocolate!

As you can see these particles can occur without full verbs, if the predicate is nominal. Verb phrases with more than one verb occur only very rarely. Instead, an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun is often used.

I decided to draw some trees for the verb phrases in a kind of made-up generative fashion (mostly based on minimalism).
Spoiler:
Image
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 16 Jul 2016 03:24
by shimobaatar
Creyeditor wrote: As you can see these particles can occur without full verbs, if the predicate is nominal. Verb phrases with more than one verb occur only very rarely. Instead, an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun is often used.
Could we perhaps see an example without a nominal predicate, one with multiple verbs, and one with an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun?

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 10 Aug 2016 00:43
by Nachtuil
Is this conlang still being worked on? It literally was one of the reasons I signed up to this message board! [:P]

Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Posted: 10 Aug 2016 16:02
by Creyeditor
Well, I am currently revising some stuff in my files and transferring it to the forum and ordering it. Right now I have a hard time coming up with some of the complex sentences shimobaatar asked for. Actually here is a sentence with two verbs, one of them is a participle. <strast> 'be able' is one of the few verbs that embedds narrow verb phrases. It is also an irregular verb wrt conjugation (see above).

Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë
skusp am mamambam qa strast\_iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of mamambam 3SG out_of be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express it in Mamambam.
Nachtuil wrote: It literally was one of the reasons I signed up to this message board! [:P]
Wow, this is really a nice compliment. Thank you [:)]