4-dimensional creatures and language.

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Ahzoh
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4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Ahzoh » 20 Feb 2014 17:35

I thought about making a race of 4-dimensional creatures called "Khsinesir".
I'm rather curious what a 4-dimensional creature might incorporate into their language. It is known/speculated that the 4th-dimension is time, so if a 4D entity can see it's beginning and end in the same way one looks across a 3D rooms, would they even need tense or aspect? Perhaps they'd have other grammatical features...
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Micamo » 20 Feb 2014 17:38

How would a 4-dimensional creature even be capable of seeing?
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Creyeditor » 20 Feb 2014 17:45

They would probably organize there temporal deictic system more like their spatial deictic system.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Click » 20 Feb 2014 17:46

Time is scalar, and this makes it rather different from other dimensions.

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Valosken » 20 Feb 2014 18:17

The 4th dimension is not time. There are hypothesised up to 11 physical dimensions. Time is considered seperate to all of them.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Ahzoh » 20 Feb 2014 18:47

Valosken wrote:The 4th dimension is not time. There are hypothesised up to 11 physical dimensions. Time is considered seperate to all of them.
I did watch a video called "Imagining the 11 dimensions" or something like that, that seemed to suggest that the 4th dimension is time.

But in anycase, what would 4D creatures incorporate into their language?

@Micamo, 3D creatures eyes see in 2D but both of them together give depth perception.
Likewise a 4D creatures eyes will see in 3D by default, but 4D with both eyes.
3D creatures fill their spaces with 2D "pictures" and then add depth.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Valosken » 20 Feb 2014 19:00

It's also not the 4th dimension because dimensions are not ordered.
Also, I thought about this 4D creature idea as well, but alas; 4 dimensional mouths.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Lambuzhao » 20 Feb 2014 19:05

Micamo wrote:How would a 4-dimensional creature even be capable of seeing?
Indeed.
Yet, they would probably "see" more or less as we do.
Nonetheless, their light-reception apparatus (eyes?)
would be able to detect beams from another set of right-angles (w-axis).
The closest thing we would come to imagining this is possibly
being able to MRI the inside of what we are lookiong at,
as well as see the outside of it as well.

But this is grossly overgeneralizing.
And barely scratches the surface of how 4D beings sniff, taste, hear, touch,
plus prolly 2 or maybe even three OTHER senses we could barely imagine.

One thing's for sure; they probably cannot see well.
That is to say, light has another dimension to scatter into.
Therefore, light sources would have to be more intense for photons
to reflect off of objects into 4D creatures' eyes.
Thus,
the Tetraverse could perhaps be a darker place
than our own universe.

And don't get me started on 4D writing systems.
Okay, get me started.
Consider that, instead of flattish 2D surfaces on paper,
they would write into "flattish" (from their perspective) 3D surfaces on swocks of 4D writing material.

Their letters/symbols could very well be 3D in form, suspended in the surface of a swock,
I imagine like little ink sculptures injected into a kind of (perhaps) gelatinous surface (well a thick sheet).

TEam Ikaria's Forum on Higher Maths and Dimensions has discussed many topics, including
a couple of linguistic ones. I'll post some links in the coming days.

One last thing,
As some other folks have said,
more often than not,
a fourth dimension is normally considered spatial, not temporal.
We're talking trength/bulk here in 4D-land.

Still, one possibility that has fascinated me is if there were not one
but TWO temporal dimensions co-existing in a Universe:
What the heck would THAT be like?!
[O.O]
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Lambuzhao » 20 Feb 2014 19:06

Valosken wrote:It's also not the 4th dimension because dimensions are not ordered.
Also, I thought about this 4D creature idea as well, but alas; 4 dimensional mouths.
Alas; 4-D mouths...what?
Please explain.

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Ahzoh » 20 Feb 2014 19:10

Valosken wrote:It's also not the 4th dimension because dimensions are not ordered.
Also, I thought about this 4D creature idea as well, but alas; 4 dimensional mouths.
It's clearly ordered, otherwise it would not be called the 4th spatial dimension...
Though 3D, 2D, 1D are not ordered, yet we give then names as such.

XYZ and W is the fourth
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by bororo » 20 Feb 2014 20:28

The aliens in Slaughterhouse-Five live in four dimensions. Their language is mentioned by Vonnegut.

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 21 Feb 2014 00:21

bororo wrote:The aliens in Slaughterhouse-Five live in four dimensions. Their language is mentioned by Vonnegut.
I don't know that the Tralfamadorians count... they could just as easily have been some sort of crazy fever dream as anything else.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Valosken » 21 Feb 2014 01:58

Ahzoh wrote:
Valosken wrote:It's also not the 4th dimension because dimensions are not ordered.
Also, I thought about this 4D creature idea as well, but alas; 4 dimensional mouths.
It's clearly ordered, otherwise it would not be called the 4th spatial dimension...
Though 3D, 2D, 1D are not ordered, yet we give then names as such.

XYZ and W is the fourth
The point is - where's the X axis? "Dimensions" describe possible independent vectors.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Lambuzhao » 21 Feb 2014 08:30

Micamo wrote:How would a 4-dimensional creature even be capable of seeing?
Here's Team Ikaria's thread on "4D Seeing"
http://hddb.teamikaria.com/forum/viewto ... =27&t=1701

Among other books, try

Surfing through Hyperspace: Understanding Higher Universes in 6 Easy Lessons by Clifford Pickover

Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension by Michio Kaku

and, for much lighter reading -

The Boy Who Reversed Himself by William Sleator

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by bororo » 21 Feb 2014 11:48

XXXVII wrote:I don't know that the Tralfamadorians count... they could just as easily have been some sort of crazy fever dream as anything else.
Well, the book describes a race of extra-terrestrial beings that are able to move in all 4 dimensions, including time, and gives a short description of their language. Isn't it what the OP is looking for?
It doesn't matter whether the ETs are "real" or not in the context of the novel...

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 21 Feb 2014 12:45

bororo wrote:
XXXVII wrote:I don't know that the Tralfamadorians count... they could just as easily have been some sort of crazy fever dream as anything else.
Well, the book describes a race of extra-terrestrial beings that are able to move in all 4 dimensions, including time, and gives a short description of their language. Isn't it what the OP is looking for?
It doesn't matter whether the ETs are "real" or not in the context of the novel...
My point was that walking toilet plungers weren't meant to be realistic fourth dimensional creatures, it just so happened that they could SEE time. Which quite obviously isn't a good way to look at an additional dimension anyway.
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Lambuzhao » 21 Feb 2014 19:09

XXXVII wrote:...walking toilet plungers ...
Well, the three-dimensional cross-section of the Trafalmadorians appears kind of plunger-ish . In all reality, they appeared different in four dimensions.

To take it down a notch, the closest way a 2D sentient creature would get to know our shape would be for us to somehow be able to balance ourselves in a forced profile posture (kind of like the way people are represented in ancient Egyptian painting). That way, the 2D beings would be able to perceive us as "entirely" as possible (albeit, still a mere 2D cross-section of our wonderfully dense 3D selves).

Now extrapolate that to the Trafalmadorians, the Burutons (any Ultraman fans???), or any other 4D beings...

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Ahzoh » 21 Feb 2014 21:18

This movie explains the analogy of 2D to 3D so that you can understand the analogy of 3D to 4D:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eyuNrm4VK2 ... l=en&gl=CA

A 3D creature to a 2D creature is like a stack of cards, each card is a 2D space and they are all adjacent to each other, you stack them up and you get 3D.
Likewise this is simply what 4D is to 3D.

It doesn't matter if 4D is time or not!
Let us speculate that it is, and let us speculate that it isn't and provide two seperate scenarios.
This helps visualise:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_B5GpsbSQ ... l=en&guid=
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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Systemzwang » 21 Feb 2014 21:38

Ahzoh wrote:I thought about making a race of 4-dimensional creatures called "Khsinesir".
I'm rather curious what a 4-dimensional creature might incorporate into their language. It is known/speculated that the 4th-dimension is time, so if a 4D entity can see it's beginning and end in the same way one looks across a 3D rooms, would they even need tense or aspect? Perhaps they'd have other grammatical features...
You do know, do you not, that the 'numbering' of the dimensions is arbitrary?

Also, when speaking of N-d creatures, we usually just concern ourselves with the number of spatial dimensions - otherwise we too would be four-dimensional creatures. No, it's not "speculated" that the 4th dimension is time - the way physics works is it decides to treat time as a dimension, and arbitrarily labels it the fourth dimension. If you want to analyse a system carefully, you can have any number of extra dimensions - temperature, light-exposure, density, average level of education, ...

We can do interesting things with 4 spatial dimensions - there's a fair share of things that are very well understood about it. Try this maze: http://www.urticator.net/maze/ or adanaxis (see https://libregamewiki.org/Adanaxis )

If you make time freely navigable you essentially make it indistinguishable from a spatial dimension, in which case you probably end up without tense and instead all such boils down to deictic reference; since our universe isn't 'objectively' oriented in any way, it'd also be hard to know whether your vector of movement is perfectly aligned with the axis of time or with any 'axis' whatsoever; you can only really pick any four arbitrary directions that are orthogonal, and those would be your way of measuring directions. When designing such creatures, unless they do interact with humans, I don't see much reason at all to bring in the idea that their fourth dimension is our time at all. It seems to me bringing time into it would just be confusing.

What gets more interesting is a thing some physicists have actually considered, apparently: universes with more than one dimension of time.

Apparently, three dimensions of space and one dimension of time is a kind of a sweet spot where things like stable orbits and such can exist, and complicated interactions are possible without things having to cross each other's lines. Another such sweet spot, surprisingly, seems to appear at one spatial dimension with three temporal dimensions.

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Re: 4-dimensional creatures and language.

Post by Lambuzhao » 22 Feb 2014 09:04

Another such sweet spot, surprisingly, seems to appear at one spatial dimension with three temporal dimensions.
[O.O]
[O.O]
[>_<]
[O.O]

Mind is blown. Mind is friggin blown
:!: :?:

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