Neolatin

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Squall
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Neolatin

Post by Squall » 22 Mar 2014 01:40

This is an attempt to create the Latin language in the way that it would be nowadays if the Roman Empire had survived. It is based on vulgar Latin and follows common features of the modern Romance languages, including loss of cases, SVO being the main order, presence of articles and prepositions, and plural with -s.

Alphabet
Normal: B D F L M N P R T V

/s/: SS (between vowels), S (elsewhere)
/z/: Z (first letter), S (between vowels), ZS (elsewhere)
/ʃ/: sça sce sci sço sçu
/ʒ/: J
/k/: ca che chi co cu
/g/: ga ghe ghi go gu
/tʃ/: cha tce tci cho chu
/dʒ/: gha ge gi gho ghu
/ts/: C (before e/i), Ç (elsewhere)
/dz/: DZ (first letter), Z (elsewhere)

NN (/ɲ/), LL (/ʎ/), RR (/χ/)

Other:
/cs/: X
/kw/: QU
Etymological silent H (herba, vehículo, comprehendere)
ex- + vowel in the beginning is pronounced /egz-/

Vowels:
/a ɛ e i ɔ o u/ <a e e i o o u> and stressed are <à è é í ò ó ú>.
/j w/ <i u, near another vowel. Diacritics prevent the diphthong.>

Sound changes
*/aj/(AE) -> open e, /oj/(OE) -> closed e
*u before vowel -> V (uita -> vita)
*i before vowel -> J/ʒ/ (iunius -> junio)
*h -> no sound
*intervocalic S -> /z/, SS became a simple /s/
*nn -> /ɲ/, ll -> /ʎ/
*rr -> /ʁ/
*The rest of double consonants became simple consonant
*/nj/(ni) -> /ɲ/, /lj/(li) -> /ʎ/
*mn -> /ɲ/
*The changes in c/g with e/i into /tʃ dʒ/. In double consonant, the first letter is kept and the second is modified. (cèlo, acceptare)
*ti- and di- before vowel -> /tʃj, dʒj/, except when they are doubled or after /s, z/. (natio -> natione)
*unstressed e before vowel -> i (vinea -> vinia -> vinna, lancea -> lancia).
*short i/u -> i/u
*long e/o -> closed e/o
*short e/o -> open e/o
*S in the beginning before consonant -> es (stato -> estato)

Particles
Articles
Definite: le lo la (-s)
Indefinite: une uno una (-s)
Partitive: die dio dia (-s) - vollo de aqua; vollo dia aqua; vollo desta/dessa/della aqua (for uncountable or plural)

Pronouns:

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Nominative:    jo  tu/vosté  ille/illo/illa  nòs/nosaltr*s  vòs/vosaltr*s/vostés  illes/illos/illas
Object:        me  te/voi    le/lo/la        nos            vos/vois              les/los/las
Indirect:      me  te/voi    lle             nos            vos/vois              lles
Prepositional: mi  ti/vosté  li/lúi/lèi      nòs            vòs/vostés            lis/lúis/lèis
se (third-person reflexive)
se (synthetic passive voice)

Possessive:
míe/mío/mía(s) túe/túo/túa(s) súe/súo/súa(s) nòstr*(s) vòstr*(s) loro

Demonstrative:
quest*(near me) quess*(near you) quell*(far from us)

Relative and interrogative: que

Conjunction: chi

Comparative: minus/plus quan

Place:
equí (here) ibí (where you are) illá (there)

Others:
sic (yes), non (no)
e (and), au (or)
a (to), da(from), de (genitive), di (complement)
per (per, by, ...)
in (in)
pero (but)
cun(with), sine (without)
prò (for)

prè (before (time)), pós (after (time))
ante (in front), retro (behind)
super (over), sub (under)

perché (because), adunche (therefore)

Verbs
Forms of the verb:
*Infinitive
*Present, Preterite, Future, Imperfect, Subjunctive, Hypothetical, Conditional
*Imperative (2SG, 1PL, 2PL)
*Gerund, Participle, Adjective

Compound forms:
*Progressive: estare + gerund
*Perfect: habere + participle (transitive), estare + participle (intransitive)
*Passive voice: essere + participle

Perfect tense:
-Hei manghato los biscoctos hacòra/hódie. (I have eaten the cookies now.)
-Manghai los biscoctos heri. (I ate the cookies yesterday.)
-Hei comeduto biscoctos desde prè dúo horas. Hei comeduto biscoctos desde hodie demane. (I have been eating the cookies since this morning.)
-Hei comeduto multos biscoctos ultimamente. (I have been eating the cookies lately.)

Conditional:
Past: Si habesso obtenuto denario, haberébo comprato una casa.
Future possibility: Si jo obtena denario, comprarei una casa.
Hypothetical: Si obtenesso denario, comprerébo una casa.

Special verbs:
habere + particípio (perfect tenses)
habere (to own)
habere di (to have to)
habere (to there be)

ire a + infinitive (move to do an action: "ire a laborare")
ire + infinitive (in the past it means "was going to". In the present, it means that something has started to make the action occur)

Other examples:
Quando illo apareça, reporta-me.

Conjugations:

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cantare (sing):
canto     cantas     canta     cantamos     cantatis     cantan
cantai    catasti    cantau    cantammos    cantastis    cantaron
cantarei  cantarás   cantará   cantaremos   cantaretis   cantarán
cantavo   cantavas   cantava   cantávamos   cantávatis   cantavan
canti     cantes     cante     cantemos     cantetis     canten
cantasso  cantasses  cantasse  cantássemos  cantássetis  cantassen
cantarébo cantarébas cantaréba cantarébamos cantarébatis cantaréban
canta cantemos canten
cantando cantato cantante

currere (run):
curro     curres   curre   curremos   curretis   curren
currei    currésti curreu  curremmos  curréstis  curreron
currerei  currerás currerá curreremos curreretis currerán
currevo   currevas curreva currévamos currévatis currévan
currua    curras   curra   curramos   curratis   curran
currésso  ...
currerébo ...
curre curramos curran
currendo curruto currente

definire (define):
defino     definis   defini   definimos   definitis   definin
definí     definisti definíu  definimmos  definistis  definiron
definirei  ...
definivo   definivas definiva definívamos definívatis definivan
definia    definas   defina   definamos   definatis   definan
definasso  ...
definirébo ...
define definamos definan
definindo definito defininte

Some -ire verbs are defective in Portuguese and receive -isc- in Italian.
demolire
Present:     demolisco  demolisces demolisce demolimos  demolitis  demoliscin
Subjunctive: demolisqua demoliscas demolisca demoliamos demoliatis demoliscan
Imperative:  demolisce demoliamos demoliscan

essere (be):
soi    sès     ès     somos     estis    son
fúi    fosti   foi    fommos    fostis   foron
serei  serás   será   seremos   seretis  serón
ero    eras    era    éramos    ératis   eran
sío    sías    sía    síamos    síatis   sían
fosso  fosses  fosse  fóssemos  fóssetis fossen
serébo ...
sía síamos sían
essendo èssito èssere

estare
estoi    estás    está    estamos    estatis    estón
estevo   estesti  esteve  estemmos   estestis   esteron
estarei  estarás  estará  estaremos  estaretis  estarán
estavo   estavas  estava  estávamos  estávatis  estavan
estío    estías   estía   estíamos   estíatis   estían
estesso  estesses estesse estéssemos estessetis estessan
estarébo ...
estía estíamos estían
estando estato -

habere (have):
hei     has      hai     hemos      hetis      han
hubo    hubisti  hube    hubimmos   hubistis   hubiron
haberei haberás  haberá  haberemos  haberetis  haberán
habevo  habevas  habeva  habévamos  habévatis  havbevan
habio   habias   habia   habiamos   habiatis   habian
habesso ...
haberébo
haia haiamos haian
habendo habito -

vadire (go):
voi     vas     va     vamos     vatis     van
iví     isti    ivíu   immos     istis     iron
vadirei vadirás vadirá vadiramos vadiratis vadirán
ivo     ivas    iva    ívamos    ívatis    ivan
vada    vadas   vada   vádamos   vádatis   vadan
isso    isses   isse   íssimos   issitis   issen
irébo   ...
vai vamos van
vadindo vato vadinte

facere (do, make):
faço    faces    face  facemos  facetis  facen
fecí    fecisti  fece  fecemmos fecestis feceron
farei   farás    fará  faremos  faretis  farán
facevo  ...
facia   faças    faça  ...
fecesso fecesses ...
farébo  ...
face façamos façan
Nouns
Plural: -s/es.
Diminutive: -in* -cul*, -et*
Augmentative: -ach*, -an*

Gender
There are three genders, but everything is masculine or feminine, no matter if it is biological.
If the object has biological gender and the gender is unknown or it is a generalization or a mixed group, then the neuter form must be used.

The ending usually tells the gender:
-e: neuter; -o: masculine, -a: feminine
cate cato cata

Nouns with gender variation:
cane catello catella, deus deo dea, cavallo equo equa, bove tauro vaca, galline gallo gallina, capre caprino capra, tigris tigre tigressa, leo león leona, rex rege regina, poeta poeti poetissa, sacerdote sacerdoti sacerdotissa, ermán frate-fratello sòra-soròra, professor professore professora, genitore patre matre, infante puero puella, persona viro-hómine muller

Gendered nouns without inflection (use articles):
le/lo/la tatú sabiá vulpe panda serpente atleta bebè víctima*

Vocabulary
The words are taken from ablative.

Colores: víride russo azure jaune blanco nigro (green red blue yellow white black)

Números: zero - uno duo tres quatro cinche séx septe octo nove dece unce duoce trece quatorce chince sedece septedece octodece novedece viginte triginta quadraginta quinquaginta sexaginta septaginta octaginta noveginta cento ducente trecente quadricente quincente secente septecente octocente novecente mille millone billone - primo secundo tercio quarto chinto sexto sèptimo octavo nono dècimo

Tempo: januario februario martio aprile maio junno jullo augusto septembre octobre novembre decembre - lunedí martedí merculedí jovedí venerdí sábato domínico

Greetings:
Salve. Salutationes. Bono díe. Bono matutine. Bono diorno. (Hello)
Come estás? Estás bene? Vás bene? (How are you?)
Chao. (Bye)
Gratias. (Thanks)
Bene venuto. (Welcome)

Examples
Totes esseres humanes nascen líberes e equales in dignitate e in direchos. Son doptates di razione e di conscientia e deven agere fraternalmente inter si.

Comparison

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Latin:     fîliô aquâ viridî petrâ  cane oculô linguâ manû terrâ  bellâ buccâ hîbernô lupô cattô bonô  animalî puncto sancto pater questiône
Neolatino: filio aqua víride petra  cane òculo lingua mano terra  bella buca  hiberno lupo cato  bòno  animale puncto sancto patre questione
Vuromoto:  fillu àgua vérdi  pieda  cani uoclu léngua manu tierra bella boca  ivernu  lobu catu  buonu animal  pointu saintu pàder qestióm

stellâ   extensiône aurô aurôra librô lîberô oleum vîneâ pisce nâtiône caelô tabulâ auricula cursô lacte nocte ponte  ventô  rêgno bêstiâ portâ
estella  extensione auro auróra libro líbero olio  vinia pisce natione celo  tábula aurícula curso lacte nocte ponte  vento  régno béstia porta
istiella estensióm  òru  oróra  levru livru  uollu vinna pexi  nación  cielu tavla  orécla   córso laiti noiti puonti vientu rennu béstia porta
Others
Lord's Prayer
Name of countries
Last edited by Squall on 01 Sep 2015 22:07, edited 19 times in total.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

Salmoneus
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Salmoneus » 22 Mar 2014 02:18

I don't understand. We already know what vulgar latin evolves into; I don't see why maintaining the roman empire would have changed that substantially. I guess you'd have to subtract a few germanic loanwords, and I guess Romanian would be very different, but in general I wouldn't have thought the empire would have been that influential linguistically.

I'm also not sure you entirely understand how language change works. ALL the latin words have undergone sound changes, though you may be able to find a few that look similar due to happening to dodge the big ones. Words that appear to be closer to the original are generally the result of borrowing technical words from texts. But even so, "aquāticus" is still not the same as "aquático". You talk about keeping the older 'roots', but you also talk about including vulgar latin sound changes. That's obviously inconsistent. The reason why romance languages have an initial vowel in words like 'estado' is that a sound change has occured (epenthetic /i/ before an initial sC cluster).

How can you 'give preference' to certain sounds? Are you suggesting you're just randomly making up words you think sound Latiny? That's OK I suppose if it's your thing, but it's not going to look anything like "the Latin language in the way that it would be nowadays if the Roman Empire had survived." Because, for one thing, if the Empire had survived Latin would have undergone regular soundchanges, not just had some guy randomly pick words for it.

Squall
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Squall » 22 Mar 2014 02:41

Salmoneus wrote:I don't understand. We already know what vulgar latin evolves into; I don't see why maintaining the roman empire would have changed that substantially. I guess you'd have to subtract a few germanic loanwords, and I guess Romanian would be very different, but in general I wouldn't have thought the empire would have been that influential linguistically.
We know that vulgar Latin evolved to many different languages. I was thinking about a single language.
Large empires often have the same language, we can see it in China, Russia and Spanish colonies.
I will ignore Romanian since is too different.

I will keep the germanic loanwords. In my alternative history the barbarians entered into the empire, but failed to bring down the empire. They created camps inside the empire and the camps evolved into cities and the cities were assimilated into the empire.
How can you 'give preference' to certain sounds? Are you suggesting you're just randomly making up words you think sound Latiny? That's OK I suppose if it's your thing, but it's not going to look anything like "the Latin language in the way that it would be nowadays if the Roman Empire had survived." Because, for one thing, if the Empire had survived Latin would have undergone regular soundchanges, not just had some guy randomly pick words for it.
The reality cannot be known and any alternative history is created by guys with random ideas or approximations.
I will give preference to sounds that are newer and sounds that are more common in the Romance languages.

If different words with different origin and the same meaning exist in different languages, all of them will be included.
As an example, in the same language we have many words for 'beautiful': lindo bonito bello hermoso.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

cntrational
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Re: Neolatin

Post by cntrational » 22 Mar 2014 14:41

Squall wrote:Large empires often have the same language, we can see it in China, Russia and Spanish colonies.
The Chinese government and people like to pretend there's only one Chinese language, but in fact, there are several. The combined effect of the writing system obscuring phonetic changes and the wish of the Chinese government to promote "unity" among Han Chinese has created the fiction of a single Chinese language.

Russia also has several languages spoken in it, but I can't comment further because I don't know much about that region.

Spanish dialects are increasingly divergent, and near assured to split into several "Spanish languages" in the future, in the same way Latin split up into Romance languages.

Salmoneus
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Salmoneus » 22 Mar 2014 17:04

Squall wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:I don't understand. We already know what vulgar latin evolves into; I don't see why maintaining the roman empire would have changed that substantially. I guess you'd have to subtract a few germanic loanwords, and I guess Romanian would be very different, but in general I wouldn't have thought the empire would have been that influential linguistically.
We know that vulgar Latin evolved to many different languages. I was thinking about a single language.
Large empires often have the same language, we can see it in China, Russia and Spanish colonies.
I will ignore Romanian since is too different.
Large empires that last for any length of time will have multiple languages - eg. China. Latin was evolving that way when the empire fell, and spanish is evolving that way now.

It's reasonable to ask what the official language of a surviving Roman Empire might be... but the answer will either be 'Latin' or 'one of the romance languages'. And Italian has already been invented, so...
(actually, the answer would in reality probably be 'Greek', though I suppose that might depend on your point of departure]
The reality cannot be known and any alternative history is created by guys with random ideas or approximations.
I will give preference to sounds that are newer and sounds that are more common in the Romance languages.
But again, you haven't said what you mean by that. If you were actually interested in what would have been spoken, you'd derive the lexicon through regular soundchanges, which give you no opportunity to 'give preference' to one sound or another.

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Lambuzhao
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Lambuzhao » 22 Mar 2014 18:54

Salmoneus wrote:I don't understand. We already know what vulgar latin evolves into; I don't see why maintaining the roman empire would have changed that substantially. I guess you'd have to subtract a few germanic loanwords, and I guess Romanian would be very different, but in general I wouldn't have thought the empire would have been that influential linguistically.

I'm also not sure you entirely understand how language change works. ALL the latin words have undergone sound changes, though you may be able to find a few that look similar due to happening to dodge the big ones. Words that appear to be closer to the original are generally the result of borrowing technical words from texts. But even so, "aquāticus" is still not the same as "aquático". You talk about keeping the older 'roots', but you also talk about including vulgar latin sound changes. That's obviously inconsistent. The reason why romance languages have an initial vowel in words like 'estado' is that a sound change has occured (epenthetic /i/ before an initial sC cluster).

How can you 'give preference' to certain sounds? Are you suggesting you're just randomly making up words you think sound Latiny? That's OK I suppose if it's your thing, but it's not going to look anything like "the Latin language in the way that it would be nowadays if the Roman Empire had survived." Because, for one thing, if the Empire had survived Latin would have undergone regular soundchanges, not just had some guy randomly pick words for it.
Sal is making some pretty important points here. I concur.
Problems
Many words are changed in modern Romance languages, for instance 'aqua' (water) became 'agua'. However, the word 'aquático' (aquatic) was not changed.
The pair 'agua,aquático' looks inconsistent, and I have to choose between 'aqua,aquático' and 'agua,aguático'.
There are many pairs: rodare,rotacione libertas,livre mes(from mensi)/mensal
This looks inconsistent, but really is not, due to borrowings and re-borrowings over time. Some words, like
*aqua and *equa entered Spanish for example very early on, at the vulgar latin stage. They got used and abused over time, and suffered more ( but as Sal unserscores rightly, regular) sound changes. Thus:
aqua - agua
*equa - yegua

Since these words are part of the original vox populi, these are called vulgarismos.

What happens with :lat: words like aquaticus and equitatio is that they entered Spanish much later, and were pretty much borrowed part and parcel. These are called cultismos, or learned borrowings, b/c scribes or monks or other educated folks "rediscovered" them through the study of Latin. Thus acuático equitación.

Given enough time, a :lat: word like aquaticus might have undergone the lenition that happened to words like aqua and amicus, thus *aguadigo, or even perhaps *aguazgo. This is, of course, if you are following a predominantly Spanish-flavored pattern of sound change. Similarly, one might wind up with *yeguidazón (cf. ratio - razón).

At any rate, be consistent with sound changes, and let's see some more!

Squall
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Squall » 22 Mar 2014 19:05

When a country is united for a time, the divergence is slowed down. The divergence in the Spanish language increased after the isolation of each Latin-American country.

The specific changes in vulgar Latin received influences from different foreign tribes. Furthermore, the areas were isolated and the feudalism increased the isolation. Italian had unique changes too, 'correctus' became 'corretto', while it is 'correcto' in Spanish.

We can see small differences in the same country, but they are limited and people can still understand each other without problems.

Russian has 154 million speakers and this number is near the size of Russian population, but I do not know if they pretend it is the same language. [:D]

I wonder how is the divergence in English. Is the Australian one and the South-African one too different from American English? Is it too different between two extremes in USA (Oregon and Virginia, for instance)?
Salmoneus wrote: But again, you haven't said what you mean by that. If you were actually interested in what would have been spoken, you'd derive the lexicon through regular soundchanges, which give you no opportunity to 'give preference' to one sound or another.
I will choose some regular sound changes, but it was not completely regular in the real languages.
If the divergence is large, I will use the Latin form (without cases).

Code: Select all

Latin  Italian Spanish Portuguese Neolatin
rectus retto   recto   reto       recto
octo   otto    ocho    oito       octo
The real languages still keep words like 'octágono'.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

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Lambuzhao
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Lambuzhao » 22 Mar 2014 19:42

Squall wrote:When a country is united for a time, the divergence is slowed down.
What about an Empire? What about the Roman Empire? Never before were so many folks united in Europe Asia Minor and North Africa, yet it was a hotbed for language divergence among speakers of Vulgar Latin.
The divergence in the Spanish language increased after the isolation of each Latin-American country.
The sound changes for which I gave examples occured from Vulgar Latin to Old Spanish, or at the latest by the time of the Unification of Castilla and Aragon. Those changes were in place well before 1492.
The specific changes in vulgar Latin received influences from different foreign tribes. Furthermore, the areas were isolated and the feudalism increased the isolation. Italian had unique changes too, 'correctus' became 'corretto', while it is 'correcto' in Spanish.
No doubt correcto is a cultismo. There are plenty of Spanish words with /ct/ in similar position that get changed into /ch/

facta - fecha
factum - hecho
lacte - leche
lactuca - lechuga
lectum - lecho
luctari - luchar
noctem - noche
octo - ocho
pectus - pecho
semicoctum - sancocho
tectum - techo
tractum - trecho
tructa - trucha

Also, a quick search of Mark Davies' Polyglot Gospel of Luke,

http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu/polyglot/

using English 1900's and Spanish 1200's, and the keyword 'right', produced hits using forms of the word 'derecho' adjectivally (lo que es derecho, derecha mientre) . It seems that, in Old Spanish, derecho was the equivalent of Modern Castillian correcto. Its consonant cluster maps pretty much exactly with :spa: /ch/ :: :ita: /tt/.
We can see small differences in the same country, but they are limited and people can still understand each other without problems.
I would love to be able to try an experiment like this, taking Vulgar Latin speakers from, say Lusitania, Pannonia, and North Africa and seeing what they would be able to understand. Now there's an experiment for mutual intelligibility.

I wonder how is the divergence in English. Is the Australian one and the South-African one too different from American English? Is it too different between two extremes in USA (Oregon and Virginia, for instance)?
Accent and vocab preferences can make an Australian sound quite unintelligible to American ears, and vice versa.

Accent differences used to be pretty extreme. In some places still. Not so much anymore, with more movement between states & regions due to work, and the influence of mass-media (CNN-register).
Salmoneus wrote: But again, you haven't said what you mean by that. If you were actually interested in what would have been spoken, you'd derive the lexicon through regular soundchanges, which give you no opportunity to 'give preference' to one sound or another.
I will choose some regular sound changes, but it was not completely regular in the real languages.
If the divergence is large, I will use the Latin form (without cases).

Code: Select all

Latin  Italian Spanish Portuguese Neolatin
rectus retto   recto   reto       recto
octo   otto    ocho    oito       octo
The real languages still keep words like 'octágono'.[/quote]

That's a false assumption. It's not that Italian, Spanish and French preserved words exactly from the Greek right on through Vulgar Latin: words like octagon were cultisms that avoided the centuries of natural and regular sound changes of which Sal spoke.

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Avo
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Avo » 22 Mar 2014 19:48

Both correcto and recto are relearned forms, just like aquático. Spanish is a particularly bad example for the divergence of the Romance languages here because it is full of such reborrowed words. Lots of words ending in -ción belong here, the naturally evolved outcome of Latin -tionem is preserved in razón and corazón ( < rationem, *corationem), words with -ct-, -pt- and -xt- were reloaned as such later too, perfecto, correcto and aceptar are all attested as perfeto, correto, acetar in Old Spanish, for example.

Other Romance languages have such words too, sometimes more and sometimes less obvious (French siècle looks like what could be a normal French word, but the regular outcome of Latin seculum would have yielded something like *sièil)
The specific changes in vulgar Latin received influences from different foreign tribes. Furthermore, the areas were isolated and the feudalism increased the isolation.
Every language evolves, foreign tribes or not. And how can an area be isolated if there are foreign tribes influencing the language spoken there?
Russian has 154 million speakers and this number is near the size of Russian population, but I do not know if they pretend it is the same language.
The area where Russian is spoken wasn't as big a few hundred years ago and it didn't have that many speakers either. But Russia expanded rather quick at some point, even most of what is Russia today on the European side was occupied by speakers of other languages in the past. Lots of them switched to Russian eventually, especially during the times of the UDSSR there was a strong pro-Russian language policy going on, accelerating the switch to Russian even more.
Last edited by Avo on 23 Mar 2014 03:42, edited 1 time in total.

Squall
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Squall » 23 Mar 2014 01:47

Now I understand the relearned forms. In the conlang, they will follow the changes in the main roots.
Lambuzhao wrote:The sound changes for which I gave examples occured from Vulgar Latin to Old Spanish, or at the latest by the time of the Unification of Castilla and Aragon. Those changes were in place well before 1492.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lingu ... Europe.gif

After the Unification of Castilla, Castilian became the most spread language in Spain.
Galician and Portuguese were the same language in the past, but they diverged after the isolation. Galician got some influences from Castilian.
Avo wrote: Every language evolves, foreign tribes or not. And how can an area be isolated if there are foreign tribes influencing the language spoken there?
I mean that different barbarian tribes invaded each area firstly and later the feudal system became stable and isolated many areas.[:D]



Anyway, this is an attempt to create a language that represents a generic vulgar Latin and tries to be conservative, but includes the new common features.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

Squall
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Squall » 12 Jul 2014 05:20

Current issues:
-According to the Google translator, it looks like Galician. It should be more neutral.
-The words need to be simplified because they are too long. Maybe I will remove the second or third syllable when it is unstressed (septimana -> semana, particula -> particla, computatora -> computora, desiderare-> desirare).
-An easy simplification is the removal of -e in the end of words that ends with -le, -re and -one. The problem is that it would damage some of the Latin feeling that was kept in Italian.
-A posteriori conlangs are fun, because the vocabulary exists and I can apply sound changes. On the other hand, synonymous and homophones come along. My modifications gave birth to some false friends.


I have some questions and I would like to see some suggestions.

1. I have taken a random long text here and translated it. Does it seem biased towards Portuguese/Spanish?

Text:
Conforme sapetis, espèro celebrare mío septagèsimo chinto anniversario a pòs paucos días. Estoi grata che fue concedito me videre questo día venire in sanitá bona. In-no fin de questo anno, comemoraremos che nostro paíse deveníu-se a una monarchía prè ducente annos, una ocasione que simboliza una època nòva in nostra història. La coincidentia di questos duo eventos particulares causaran me decidere abire mía positione in questo anno. Me pare un momento bono prò realmente capere questo passo, que hei considerato durante alcunos annos.

2. Do I have an overuse of diacritics (cèlo María història)? It is used to distinguish the open e/o and the stressed syllable.

3. There are some irregular pairs in Latin:
comprimere-compressione protectione-protegere describere-descriptione explosione-explodire reflectere-reflexo successo-succedere
I do not see a good way to regularize them. Any suggestion?

4. Z is rare in Latin (It seems it represents /dz/). Latin does not have words with /ʃ/, but it appeared later in the SC in piscis(fish). They may be needed in Germanic and Arabian roots. It is difficult to find Vulgar Latin words with those phonemes to apply sound changes.
Last edited by Squall on 01 Oct 2014 23:04, edited 3 times in total.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

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Lambuzhao
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Re: Neolatin

Post by Lambuzhao » 12 Jul 2014 07:32

For comparison's sake, here's a translation of that same text into my own :lat: lang Çedara.

codòquia vœ oñes sçiet, spero cerbalar al mia ges nadajçi 75a (sedgesma-çinta) inas vedoras ges. Rañoço qu l'ebordundat mi licuìsa ugger ha vienges ges cola bona soluge.
Ala fin his añ comambolábimo quoque qu ojm duiçẽdes añi la nœtra naçõ sue fitd la monalquì, unũ evẽdtũ qu nũçaù una nova epoque nelæ nœtras res getdas. La cõquerẽda hũ dua evẽdta padregjà mi nençidaù cõsçituer quia ahogañ rejnqua la mia sej . Mi uggedùr unũ bonũ moëndũ quia souger ha pass, qu eio cõsidrelaù posdej ajqui añi.

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