Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

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cntrational
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by cntrational » 12 Nov 2014 19:46

I'll be going with sangi's proposal, then.

Current phonology:
/p t c k q ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/
/pʷ tʷ cʷ kʷ qʷ ʔʷ/
/f s ɬ ç x h/
/sʰ çʰ/
/sʷ ɬʷ çʷ xʷ hʷ/

Next, what nasals and liquids should we have?

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Nov 2014 20:08

my good old boring vote vote:
/m l~r~n/
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by k1234567890y » 12 Nov 2014 20:10

very boring one:

/m n r l/, possibly /ŋ/ and /ɲ/
...

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Dezinaa » 12 Nov 2014 20:16

Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. The nasals would be similar to the plosive system, without velars or uvulars.

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Shemtov » 12 Nov 2014 20:37

Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. .
I second this, but with a velar lateral.
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Znex » 12 Nov 2014 21:03

Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. The nasals would be similar to the plosive system, without velars or uvulars.
This minus the voiceless nasals. [D:]
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Dezinaa » 12 Nov 2014 21:49

Shemtov wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. .
I second this, but with a velar lateral.
Velar laterals are extremely rare in natlangs.

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Shemtov » 13 Nov 2014 07:46

Dezinaa wrote:
Shemtov wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. .
I second this, but with a velar lateral.
Velar laterals are extremely rare in natlangs.
I know, but that'll give it some.....jump.
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Lao Kou » 13 Nov 2014 09:19

Shemtov wrote:I know, but that'll give it some.....jump.
"Hey, man, your proto-lang got game!" [xD]
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by sangi39 » 13 Nov 2014 16:39

I'd agree with Dezinaa's proposal [:)]
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Fanael » 13 Nov 2014 23:04

Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. The nasals would be similar to the plosive system, without velars or uvulars.
If similarity to the plosive system is the goal, why don't make the voiceless nasals aspirated – truly aspirated, with positive VOT – i.e. /m n ɲ m̥ʰ n̥ʰ ɲ̥ʰ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/? They're attested in Angami.

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Nov 2014 23:39

What about /m n ʟ/? This is basically the liquid system of Ekari/Ekagi/Mee, the only difference being, that the lateral in Ekari is either prestopped, or a laterally released voiced plosive (and some serious allophony going on there [:D] )
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by loglorn » 14 Nov 2014 00:59

Creyeditor wrote:What about /m n ʟ/? This is basically the liquid system of Ekari/Ekagi/Mee, the only difference being, that the lateral in Ekari is either prestopped, or a laterally released voiced plosive (and some serious allophony going on there [:D] )
[+1], i found that awfully interesting
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Shemtov » 14 Nov 2014 01:23

Fanael wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. The nasals would be similar to the plosive system, without velars or uvulars.
If similarity to the plosive system is the goal, why don't make the voiceless nasals aspirated – truly aspirated, with positive VOT – i.e. /m n ɲ m̥ʰ n̥ʰ ɲ̥ʰ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/? They're attested in Angami.
[+1]
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by sangi39 » 14 Nov 2014 21:06

Fanael wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:Maybe /m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/ and /l ʎ/. The nasals would be similar to the plosive system, without velars or uvulars.
If similarity to the plosive system is the goal, why don't make the voiceless nasals aspirated – truly aspirated, with positive VOT – i.e. /m n ɲ m̥ʰ n̥ʰ ɲ̥ʰ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/? They're attested in Angami.
Would it be possible that both systems could exist alongside each other, possibly dialectally, with one dialect (or set of dialects) using [m̥] while another uses [m̥ʰ]?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by cntrational » 15 Nov 2014 16:01

Going with Dezinaa's proposal + velar lateral.

/m n ɲ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ mʷ nʷ ɲʷ/
/p t c k q ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/
/pʷ tʷ cʷ kʷ qʷ ʔʷ/
/f s ɬ ç x h/
/sʰ çʰ/
/sʷ ɬʷ çʷ xʷ hʷ/
/l ʎ ʟ/

Next up: What vowels should we have? Ignore things like nasalization and tone, that'll be in the next question.

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by DesEsseintes » 15 Nov 2014 16:09

/a ɘ i ɯ/

/i ɯ/ are realised [y u] following labialised consonants.
Edit: Better still: /i ɯ/ are [wi (w)u] following labialised consonants in stressed syllables, and [ʏ ʊ] in unstressed syllables.

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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by sangi39 » 15 Nov 2014 16:28

I was thinking something along the lines if:

/i: ɪ/
/e: o:/
/e̞ o̞/
/ɛ: ɔ:/
/a a:/

Like a defective Ancient Greek.

Something with four short vowels, though, is something I'd be very interested in. I think allophony might be something to work on later, though.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by Creyeditor » 15 Nov 2014 18:22

What if length contrast is phonemic and the short vowels are more marked, so there are fewer of them?
Combining both ideas:
/i: ɪ ɯ u:/
/e: ɘ o:/
/ɛ: ɔ:/
/a a:/

With the following correspondece:

Code: Select all

Long        short
/i:/,/e:/    /ɪ/  
/u:/,/o:/    /ɯ/
/ɛ:/,/ɔ:/    /ɘ/ 
/a:/         /a/
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Re: Proto-CBBian: A collablang protolang and a collabfamily

Post by sangi39 » 15 Nov 2014 18:57

Creyeditor wrote:What if length contrast is phonemic and the short vowels are more marked, so there are fewer of them?
Combining both ideas:
/i: ɪ ɯ u:/
/e: ɘ o:/
/ɛ: ɔ:/
/a a:/

With the following correspondece:

Code: Select all

Long        short
/i:/,/e:/    /ɪ/  
/u:/,/o:/    /ɯ/
/ɛ:/,/ɔ:/    /ɘ/ 
/a:/         /a/
Oo, now that looks interesting, but then you've got to think about what conditions any alternation might appear in, otherwise, would it be meaningful to talk about "correspondences" between short and long vowels at all?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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