Yabushionese (Basic conjunctions)

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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by Incorruptus » 17 Feb 2015 23:50

You have the coolest Japanese-lang ever. Ever. And that script is just attractive.

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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by clawgrip » 18 Feb 2015 05:25

Thank you. My sort-of goal that's been guiding me is to try and combine the jaunty, informal feel of Japanese colloquial dialects with the formal, literary feel of Classical Japanese, creating a weird, anachronistic sort of language, but then have a whole county where it has official status, giving legitimacy to an otherwise rustic, archaic dialect.

I'm sure the language is not fully plausible because I think a number of archaicisms I'm including are archaic even for late Middle Japanese, but oh well.

I think my next step is to assemble a complete list of conjugable auxiliaries. Pick and choose from the older ones, add my iwn, and maybe even borrow one or two contemporary Japanese ones.

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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by Lao Kou » 18 Feb 2015 05:40

[:D] Jaunty, what a great word! [:D] 筑穂弁 is "jaunty". [xP]
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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by clawgrip » 18 Feb 2015 11:19

You could always say lively as well.

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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by Lao Kou » 18 Feb 2015 11:29

Meh, it pales to "jaunty". I'm loving it. [:)]
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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by clawgrip » 18 Feb 2015 13:46

So, Classical Japanese had 28 conjugable auxiliaries and Modern Japanese has 21 (these totals include the copula(s)). Both totals include a couple that are just variant forms of others based on the class of verb they attach to, and there are a couple excluded, probably because they are not 100% dependent morphemes (though by this reasoning the modern negative form should also be excluded...who knows). If we strip out the variants that are semantically identical, the totals are 25 and 18 respectively. Of these 18, 9 were inherited directly from Classical Japanese and 9 are modern innovations, meaning 16 were dropped entirely.

I know the lists are not totally complete, but even so, this gives me a rough idea of how much to keep or drop depending on how innovative/conservative I want Yabushionese to be. So far, if I've counted right, Yabushionese has 6 of the classical auxiliaries preserved in Modern Japanese, 3 that are absent from modern Japanese (including one that has undergone a change in meaning), 2 of the modern innovations found in Modern Japanese, and 0 innovations unique to Yabushionese. I intend to Yabushionese to have a few more than Modern Japanese, but I need to come up with some unique innovations. First, I will have to compare the categories and see what categories were dropped from Modern Japanese (like the perfect), and which were replaced, and see how I want Yabushionese to be similar/different.

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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by Incorruptus » 18 Feb 2015 13:53

clawgrip wrote:Thank you. My sort-of goal that's been guiding me is to try and combine the jaunty, informal feel of Japanese colloquial dialects with the formal, literary feel of Classical Japanese, creating a weird, anachronistic sort of language, but then have a whole county where it has official status, giving legitimacy to an otherwise rustic, archaic dialect.

I'm sure the language is not fully plausible because I think a number of archaicisms I'm including are archaic even for late Middle Japanese, but oh well.

I think my next step is to assemble a complete list of conjugable auxiliaries. Pick and choose from the older ones, add my iwn, and maybe even borrow one or two contemporary Japanese ones.
I get it. One language I was going to try was something like this with more of a presence of [f]...

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Re: Yabushionese (Phonology expanded incl. accent)

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 18 Feb 2015 17:18

Due to the fact that I am gradually iterating on the verbs present in Islhonta, and also working with an ancestor language, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as you mess with verbs and add/delete/change them from the ancestor language! I'm especially curious to see what new auxiliaries you "innovate" for use in Yabushionese!
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Re: Yabushionese (tentative conjugable auxiliary list)

Post by clawgrip » 19 Feb 2015 02:58

I have come up with a tentative list of auxiliaries and their conjugations. I may add some more at some point.

The leftmost column shows which stem the auxiliary must attach to.

When there is more than one form in a box, the first one is when it is word-final, the second is when it is followed by another verbal morpheme.
When there is a third form, it is a colloquial form.
Forms in parentheses are highly formal variants not found in normal speech, polite or otherwise.

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tenasu, chuku, taru, and toku are all formed from the te auxiliary, which has otherwise been eliminated from the language, causing these to be analyzed as distinct forms rather than compounds.

In fact, the te auxiliary, ubiquitous in Classical and Modern Japanese as a clause subordinator, has been replaced by the adverbial ending -i, which has been regularized as a subordinating adverbial form that can be found even on monograde and bigrade, where it could never occur in Classical or Modern Japanese, essentially as a replacement for te.

The auxiliaries ru and su are found after quintigrade or various irregular stems, while raru and sasu are for monograde and bigrade stems.

EDIT: forgot to include yọ̄ in the chart, which is the monograde/bigrade variant of u.

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Re: Yabushionese (tentative conjugable auxiliary list)

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 19 Feb 2015 07:06

Did you have any inspiration for the auxiliaries coined for Yabushionese, or were they totally a priori inventions?
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Re: Yabushionese (tentative conjugable auxiliary list)

Post by clawgrip » 19 Feb 2015 12:47

All of them originate from something real. As I said, I dropped the auxiliary that causes the subordinator te, which is pretty weird because it's very common. I think I may keep it as a formal ending. But this te ending is very common in Modern Japanese and is used to create a number of conjugations such as perfect/continuous, passive perfect, and various other things. Many are set phrases that are almost like conjugations. I figured it would make sense to have a couple of these fossilized in the language, even if independent te is gone. So I added four of them.

The firsthand evidential auxiliary fyō comes from 表, which, has several meanings, among them show/indicate/manifest. I patterned its use on other such auxiliaries, which all originate from a single kanji following the conclusive and followed by the copula. Its use as an evidentiality marker is something I came up with myself.

As for rashi, this already exists in both classical and modern Japanese, but I expanded its use by giving it one of the two distinct functions of sō da. So where Modern Japanese has two functions for sō da and one for rashii, Yabushionese has one for sọ̄ na and two for rashi.

I already notice some problems with this chart. I was so concerned about getting the inventory down that I forgot to change a couple of the endings according to Yabushionese changes. The imperatives that end in -eyo should all have -eya. Some other things are also slightly out of order, too.

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Re: Yabushionese (tentative conjugable auxiliary list)

Post by Lao Kou » 19 Feb 2015 13:10

clawgrip wrote:I already notice some problems with this chart. I was so concerned about getting the inventory down that I forgot to change a couple of the endings according to Yabushionese changes. The imperatives that end in -eyo should all have -eya. Some other things are also slightly out of order, too.
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Re: Yabushionese

Post by clawgrip » 04 Sep 2015 13:25

Loss of -te
I think the most unusual and drastic change I've made in creating Yabushionese is the loss of the adverbial particle -te. This particle is used extensively in Modern Japanese in clause subordination and verb conjugation and is completely indispensable. Because of this, I kind of went through a stage of doubt where I felt like Yabushionese could not be viable with the loss of this particle, but I believe I have managed to stabilize the language through various means.

For adjectival verbs, the loss of distinction between the forms which Modern Japanese differentiates with the endings -ku and -kute has been preserved through the use of two distinct nominative particles (of which one is no longer a nominative particle in Modern Japanese), as outlined in this post.

I also haven't eliminated -te entirely. It exists, for example, in the locative particle n(i)te and the instrumental particle shite, and there are some verb endings, such as -toku and -taru which originate as contractions using it.

For the most part, however, -te has been replaced by the particle -i, which is a Yabushionese innovation not found as a distinct element in either Modern or Old Japanese.

The origin of this particle is from the bare adverbial stem of Old Japanese.

If you look at the Modern Japanese verbs osu "push" and hanasu "speak" in this sentence:

JA: ボタンを押して話して下さい。
Botan o oshite hanashite kudasai.

button ACC push-ADV-ADV speak-ADV-ADV please
Please press the button and speak.

You can see both of them have added -te to their bare adverbial stems (oshi and hanashi). In more formal language, the -te particle can be dropped:

JA: ボタンを押しお話し下さい。
Botan o oshi o-hanashi kudasai.

button ACC push-ADV speak-ADV please
Please press the button and speak.

In this sentence, both verbs have dropped the -te (don't worry about the o- prefix, that's something entirely different). The -te particle cannot be dropped everywhere, but in these two places (subordinating clause and polite request form) it can.

I decided that Yabushionese would favour the bare adverbial stem over the -te form and adopt it as the default, in contrast to Modern Japanese. All Old Japanese verbs except those of the shimo-nidan class have adverbial stems ending in /i/ (shimo-nidan take /e/ instead), but this /i/ is always part of a CV syllable. Breaking the vowel away from the consonant it follows and becoming independent really doesn't tend to happen in Japanese at all, so I came up with a different way separate it, namely by colloquial lengthening.

Perhaps first, the two irregular verbs す su ("do") and 來 ku ("come"), lengthened their adverbial stems from shi and ki to shii and kii respectively when they were used without any further endings. Soon, all the verb classes would lengthen their adverbial stem vowel. With the vowel lengthened, the syllable is split into the two morae Ci-i, releasing the -i to spread through analogy to other morphemes that don't even end in Ci.

Both lengthening and the -i ending can coexist in a single morpheme. For example, the adverbial form of the Old Japanese negative particle -zu is -zari, but in Yabushionese (which has lost the ri in the bare form), this can become as -zā colloquially and -zai more normally (the table in the post above is slightly out of date)

I'm strongly considering having the lengthened vowels revert to short ones in plain speech, and only retain their length for polite speech.

This means, the two sentences above when translated to Yabushionese become:

バタンを押し話し呉さし。
Batan ọ oshi fanashi kuresashi.

button ACC push-ADV speak-ADV please
Please press the button and speak.

バタンを押しいお話しい呉さし。
Batan ọ oshii ofanashii kuresashi.

button ACC push-ADV-ADV speak-ADV-ADV please
Please press the button and speak.

So in Japanese, dropping a particle makes it more formal, while in Yabushionese, adding one does.

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Re: Yabushionese

Post by clawgrip » 04 Sep 2015 15:02

Short addendum.

Form
Here is how the independent adverbial form appears for all the verb classes:

godan:
書く kaku → 書きい kakii
泳ぐ oyogu → 泳ぎい oyogii
話す hanasu → 話しい hanashii
待つ matsu → 待ちい machii
死ぬ shinu → 死にい shinii
拂ふ farafu → 拂ひい farafii
遊ぶ asobu → 遊びい asobii
止む yamu → 止みい yamii
剃る soru → 剃りい sorii

kami-ichidan:
見る miru → 見い mii

kami-nidan:
生く iku → 生きい ikii

shimo-nidan:
食ぶ tabu → 食べい tabei

irregular:
來 ku → 來い kii
す su → しい shii


Accent
The particle -i shifts the accent of accented verbs to penultimate position:

生く ikù → 生きい ikíi
話す hanásu → 話しい hanashíi

Unaccented verbs remain unaccented:

汚す yogosu → 汚しい yogoshii
寢 nu → 寢い nei

To be clear on my notation, an acute accent indicates the nakadaka/fixed-middle accent type, while a grave accent indicates the odaka/fluid-penultimate accent type.
Last edited by clawgrip on 06 Sep 2015 17:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Yabushionese

Post by k1234567890y » 05 Sep 2015 08:45

it seems that you have take a lot of time researching Classical Japanese, have you ever learned Classical Japanese, Clawgrip?
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.

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Re: Yabushionese

Post by clawgrip » 05 Sep 2015 15:37

I have studied various bits and pieces of Old Japanese over the years and have learned a fair amount about it, though there is still a lot I don't know. I have only basic active knowledge, but I know how to look up the things I need to know, anyway.

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Re: Yabushionese (Personal Pronouns)

Post by clawgrip » 06 Sep 2015 16:52

Personal Pronouns
The personal pronouns are confusing to sort out, but this is what I have so far:

Everything is (singular / plural)

Polite:
1P 我 waí / 我等/我ら waíra
2P 汝/爾 naí / 汝等/汝ら/爾等/爾ら naíra
3P 彼 karé / 彼等/彼ら karéra

There is no masculine/feminine distinction in the 3rd person pronouns. I thought about giving the female form a separate character that was pronounced identically, as in Chinese, but there are no alternate characters that I like, and inventing a totally new character is too much trouble.

Waí originates as a contraction of either 我 ware or 儂 washi.
Naí originates as a contraction of either なれ nare or 汝 nanji.

Honorific:
2P 君 kimi / 君方 kimigata
2P 御身 omi / 御身方 omigata
3P prox こい方 koikatá / こい方々 koikatágata
3P med そい方 soikatá / そい方々 soikatágata
3P dist あい方 aikatá / あい方々 aikatágata

kimi is a familiar pronoun in modern Japanese, but an honorific pronoun in Yabushionese. It could cause some interpersonal problems, I suspect.

Humble:
1P 卑生 fishọ̄̀ / 卑生共 fishọ̄dòmo
3P prox この者 kono mono
3P med その者 sono mono
3P dist あの者 ano mono

Familiar:
1PM 己 / 己等/己ら oìra
1PF 妾 warọ́ / 妾等/妾ら warọ́ra
2P 吾君 agí / 吾君等/吾君ら agíra
3P 彼/かい kaí / 彼等/彼ら/かい等/かいら kaíra
3P prox こいつ koitsu / こいつ等/こいつらkoitsura
3P med そいつ soitsu / そいつ等/そいつらsoitsura
3P dist あいつ aitsu / あいつ等/あいつらaitsura

The contraction of karé to kaí mirrors the first and second person polite pronouns, but is more recent and is not considered acceptable for polite language.

There are sure to be other familiar pronouns and I might mess with the other ones, but this is what I have come up with so far.

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Re: Yabushionese

Post by shimobaatar » 07 Sep 2015 08:28

clawgrip wrote:Loss of -te
I think the most unusual and drastic change I've made in creating Yabushionese is the loss of the adverbial particle -te. This particle is used extensively in Modern Japanese in clause subordination and verb conjugation and is completely indispensable. Because of this, I kind of went through a stage of doubt where I felt like Yabushionese could not be viable with the loss of this particle, but I believe I have managed to stabilize the language through various means.
clawgrip wrote:I decided that Yabushionese would favour the bare adverbial stem over the -te form and adopt it as the default, in contrast to Modern Japanese. All Old Japanese verbs except those of the shimo-nidan class have adverbial stems ending in /i/ (shimo-nidan take /e/ instead), but this /i/ is always part of a CV syllable. Breaking the vowel away from the consonant it follows and becoming independent really doesn't tend to happen in Japanese at all, so I came up with a different way separate it, namely by colloquial lengthening.

Perhaps first, the two irregular verbs す su ("do") and 來 ku ("come"), lengthened their adverbial stems from shi and ki to shii and kii respectively when they were used without any further endings. Soon, all the verb classes would lengthen their adverbial stem vowel. With the vowel lengthened, the syllable is split into the two morae Ci-i, releasing the -i to spread through analogy to other morphemes that don't even end in Ci.
I really wish I had more to say about this, but honestly, I'm in awe of how well done this is. In my opinion, you came up with a brilliant way to deal with making, as you said, such a huge change. Do you have any ideas at the moment concerning approximately when, historically speaking, this change would have been accepted into general speech?
clawgrip wrote:I'm strongly considering having the lengthened vowels revert to short ones in plain speech, and only retain their length for polite speech.
clawgrip wrote:So in Japanese, dropping a particle makes it more formal, while in Yabushionese, adding one does.
clawgrip wrote:kimi is a familiar pronoun in modern Japanese, but an honorific pronoun in Yabushionese. It could cause some interpersonal problems, I suspect.
[+1] Three more interesting differences between the two languages!
clawgrip wrote:Personal Pronouns
The personal pronouns are confusing to sort out, but this is what I have so far:
I like the different distinctions made among the different sets of pronouns. Pardon my ignorance, so to speak, but what are the approximate differences in connotations between the polite, honorific, humble, and familiar pronouns?

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Re: Yabushionese

Post by clawgrip » 07 Sep 2015 12:47

shimobaatar wrote:
clawgrip wrote:Loss of -te
I think the most unusual and drastic change I've made in creating Yabushionese is the loss of the adverbial particle -te. This particle is used extensively in Modern Japanese in clause subordination and verb conjugation and is completely indispensable. Because of this, I kind of went through a stage of doubt where I felt like Yabushionese could not be viable with the loss of this particle, but I believe I have managed to stabilize the language through various means.
clawgrip wrote:I decided that Yabushionese would favour the bare adverbial stem over the -te form and adopt it as the default, in contrast to Modern Japanese. All Old Japanese verbs except those of the shimo-nidan class have adverbial stems ending in /i/ (shimo-nidan take /e/ instead), but this /i/ is always part of a CV syllable. Breaking the vowel away from the consonant it follows and becoming independent really doesn't tend to happen in Japanese at all, so I came up with a different way separate it, namely by colloquial lengthening.

Perhaps first, the two irregular verbs す su ("do") and 來 ku ("come"), lengthened their adverbial stems from shi and ki to shii and kii respectively when they were used without any further endings. Soon, all the verb classes would lengthen their adverbial stem vowel. With the vowel lengthened, the syllable is split into the two morae Ci-i, releasing the -i to spread through analogy to other morphemes that don't even end in Ci.
I really wish I had more to say about this, but honestly, I'm in awe of how well done this is. In my opinion, you came up with a brilliant way to deal with making, as you said, such a huge change. Do you have any ideas at the moment concerning approximately when, historically speaking, this change would have been accepted into general speech?
I'm guessing maybe something like the turn of the 19th century or so. Early enough to be firmly established, but late enough for several expressions using -te to remain an active part of the language. One issue though is that I have included several conjugations (-tenasu, -taru, -toku, -chuku) originating from the -te + verb pattern that exists in modern Japanese, but not early middle Japanese. I don't know when this pattern started to be used in actual Japanese, so I'm not sure how to establish a clear time line here, or if there's even enough time to introduce these and then get rid of -te. Another possibility is that the Japanese occupation during WW2 introduced this grammar, which fell out of use again except for these forms, since the two languages are intelligible at a basic level. That's a bit too recent, though.
clawgrip wrote:I'm strongly considering having the lengthened vowels revert to short ones in plain speech, and only retain their length for polite speech.
clawgrip wrote:So in Japanese, dropping a particle makes it more formal, while in Yabushionese, adding one does.
clawgrip wrote:kimi is a familiar pronoun in modern Japanese, but an honorific pronoun in Yabushionese. It could cause some interpersonal problems, I suspect.
[+1] Three more interesting differences between the two languages!
I didn't really say it quite right, but the motivation for lengthening the vowel is because Yabushionese has an aversion to word-initial accent. Since a bare adverbial by definition has no suffixes, etc. attached, it means that one-syllable accented adverbial stems, like 來 kí or 見 mí have no syllable to offload the accent to (見 mí has actually had its accent forced backwards from the basic conclusive form 見る mirú). So, the lengthening of the vowel provides a more comfortable position for the accent to shift to.
clawgrip wrote:Personal Pronouns
The personal pronouns are confusing to sort out, but this is what I have so far:
I like the different distinctions made among the different sets of pronouns. Pardon my ignorance, so to speak, but what are the approximate differences in connotations between the polite, honorific, humble, and familiar pronouns?
In the modern language, polite pronouns are used for people you aren't personal friends with, but who are otherwise equals or higher but within your in-group.

Honorific pronouns are used to discuss people in a different, higher-status group when directly talking to a member of that same group, while humble pronouns are used to talk about members of your own group when directly talking to a member of a group with a higher status than yours. Like Japanese, this is mainly restricted to business, reinforcing the client-service provider relationship. The pronouns that are missing are missing because they would be impossible to use in these situations, e.g. there is no use for a 1st person pronoun referring to someone not in your own in-group.

Familiar pronouns are for friends and family.

Historically, Yabushio had a binary caste system of nobility and peasantry, but with far too few nobility to provide a viable military, so some mixing of classes occurred. I am not so set on the details yet, but basically honorific/humble was used by peasants talking to nobility, and polite and familiar for the same reasons as stated above.

This is mirrored in verbs, which have two politeness suffixes for the two levels (which will be augmented often with suppletion).

EDIT: it seems, actually, that -te ari existed in Old Japanese with the meaning of Modern Japanese's -te iru, (an expected-enough change) so there is at least precedent for coining novel -te + VB forms before -te falls out of use. Yabushionese also has the ari ➡ aru/iru shift of modern Japanese...maybe that is what caused -te aru to become a distinct conjugation. Id that's true, then it just leaves -te oku unaccounted for.

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Re: Yabushionese

Post by clawgrip » 07 Sep 2015 14:44

clawgrip wrote:I didn't really say it quite right, but the motivation for lengthening the vowel is because Yabushionese has an aversion to word-initial accent. Since a bare adverbial by definition has no suffixes, etc. attached, it means that one-syllable accented adverbial stems, like 來 kí or 見 mí have no syllable to offload the accent to (見 mí has actually had its accent forced backwards from the basic conclusive form 見る mirú). So, the lengthening of the vowel provides a more comfortable position for the accent to shift to.
And on that note, for exactly the same reason I think I will actually have 來 irregularly adopt its old attributive form to become 來る kurú as its modern conclusive, just like Modern Japanese, but for a different reason (Modern Japanese seems to have adopted attributive as conclusive in many cases). Other verbs in Yabushionese will not follow this example, though.

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