Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

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Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 29 Jan 2015 13:56

Lesi Kirra

Lesi Kirra is a language spoken in the same world as Proto-Sirdic. Exactly when and where, however, I haven't quite decided. I have a rough idea of a previous stage of the language which I've been using to explain the distribution of stress and long vowels, but I'll only present that briefly if it becomes necessary [:)]


Phonology


Phoneme Inventory


Consonants

/p t tʃ k ʔ/ <p t c k q>
/p: t: tʃ: k:/ <pp tt cc kk>
/p' t' tʃ' k'/ <p' t' c' k'>
/mb nd ɲdʒ ŋg/ <b d j g>
/m n ɲ/ <m n ny>
/s ʃ h/ <s x h>
/s: ʃ:/ <ss xx>
/r l/ <r l>
/r: l:/ <rr ll>
/w j/ <w y>


Vowels

/i i: u u:/ <i ii u uu>
/e e: o o:/ <e ee o oo>
/æ æ: a a:/ <ä ää a aa>


Long vowels have a limited distribution, with the distinction between long and short vowels being made only in open syllables, e.g. lappa/, lapa and laapa are all viable words, but laappa is not.

Prenasalised voiced stops cause the preceding syllable to be treated as if it were closed, rather than open.

Long vowels also cannot appear word-finally.


Syllable Structure

CV(:/Q)

A syllable must contain a consonantal onset and a vocalic nucleus, which can in turn optionally be a long vowel in open syllables, or followed by a geminate consonant.


Stress

Stress is somewhat phonemic in Lesi Kirra, although it always falls on the penultimate or antepenultimate syllable.

There are some rules which allow the position of stress to be predicted:

1) If the penultimate syllable contains a long vowel, the penultimate syllable will be stressed.
2) If the penultimate syllable is followed by a prenasalised voiced stop (thus containing a short vowel) the penultimate syllable will be stressed.
3) If the penultimate syllable is followed by a geminate consonant (thus containing a short vowel) the penultimate syllable will be stressed.

The same rules can also be applied to the antepenultimate syllable when these rules would not affect the penultimate syllable, i.e. if the penultimate syllable is open and contains a short vowel.

If both the penultimate and antepenultimate syllable are open and contain a short vowel, then stress may fall on either one of them.
Last edited by sangi39 on 29 Jan 2015 14:43, edited 4 times in total.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 29 Jan 2015 14:24

Nominal Morphology

Nouns decline only for grammatical number, with the plural form of a noun being formed by means of initial reduplication of the first syllable of the word. For example lesi, meaning “person, human, a Lesi person” becomes lelesi in the plural.

This reduplication can drag stress back through the word in some instances, such as náni (mother) ~ nánani (mothers) where the stress shifts from the penultimate syllable to the antepenultimate. This contrasts with the above example of lési ~ lelési where the stress falls on the penultimate syllable in both forms.

Such alternation isn't possible for nouns where the stress is fixed due to their phonetics, e.g. p'édä (river) ~ p'ep'édä (rivers) or míiro (star) vs. miimíiro (stars) where stress must fall on the penultimate syllable.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 29 Jan 2015 16:47

Reduplication to mark the plural is only used in certain contexts however, most notably when the noun appears in isolation, or when a collective meaning is intended rather than a simple plural. When specifying the exact quantity of a count noun, e.g. three dogs or four cats.

There are about a dozen or so “counter words” which are used when counting people (ca), domesticated animals (ji), wild animals (ro), plants (su), fruits and nuts (kobu), buildings (reto), long, thin objects (ma), wide, flat objects (xa), round objects (bo), rising objects (li), falling objects (nyo), hollow objects (ha), time periods (gi), etc.

So, for example, if we wanted to say “three people” we would have to say sare ca lesi, not just sare lesi. Similarly, to say “five dogs” we would have to say gate ji qaaka instead of just gate qaaka.

Counter words can, though, be used with the plural forms of nouns when a collective meaning is inteaded, e.g. sare ca lelesi would mean “three groups of people” and gate ji qaaqaaka would mean “three packs of dogs”.


Numbers

One - lemo
Two - texi
Three - sare
Four - hik'u
Five - gate
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by shimobaatar » 29 Jan 2015 20:20

Looks nice so far! I like the orthography (and inventory in general) and the rules about long vowels and stress.

I also like the "counter words" and the reduplication… is the number system base-5?

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 29 Jan 2015 20:39

shimobaatar wrote:Looks nice so far! I like the orthography (and inventory in general) and the rules about long vowels and stress.

I also like the "counter words" and the reduplication… is the number system base-5?
Awesome [:)]

I'm not too sure yet about what base system Lesi Kirra will use. I did base-5 with Proto-Sirdic with the intent to have that develop into base-10 and base-12 in various branches, so I'm actually tempted to go for base-8 with this conlang, which I haven't really tried before.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by shimobaatar » 29 Jan 2015 22:20

sangi39 wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Looks nice so far! I like the orthography (and inventory in general) and the rules about long vowels and stress.

I also like the "counter words" and the reduplication… is the number system base-5?
Awesome [:)]

I'm not too sure yet about what base system Lesi Kirra will use. I did base-5 with Proto-Sirdic with the intent to have that develop into base-10 and base-12 in various branches, so I'm actually tempted to go for base-8 with this conlang, which I haven't really tried before.
If Proto-Sirdic has a base-5 system, I'd personally recommend using a base-8 system for this language (since, like you said, you haven't really tried it before)… unless the two families are spoken by groups of people that are strongly linked, both culturally and geographically.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 29 Jan 2015 22:26

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Looks nice so far! I like the orthography (and inventory in general) and the rules about long vowels and stress.

I also like the "counter words" and the reduplication… is the number system base-5?
Awesome [:)]

I'm not too sure yet about what base system Lesi Kirra will use. I did base-5 with Proto-Sirdic with the intent to have that develop into base-10 and base-12 in various branches, so I'm actually tempted to go for base-8 with this conlang, which I haven't really tried before.
If Proto-Sirdic has a base-5 system, I'd personally recommend using a base-8 system for this language (since, like you said, you haven't really tried it before)… unless the two families are spoken by groups of people that are strongly linked, both culturally and geographically.
Yeah, that was my general feeling. I'm definitely planning of having the two languages spoken in very different locations on the planet so the chances of them coming into contact at an early stage should be pretty low. Base-8 it is then [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by Prinsessa » 30 Jan 2015 14:10

Looks nice so far. Would love to see more grammar. How do verbs and adjectives work? What is syntax like and how do all these noun classes come into play under various circumstances?

And thanks for reminding me that I need to work on my numbers. :(

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 04 Feb 2015 16:35

Prinsessa wrote:Looks nice so far. Would love to see more grammar. How do verbs and adjectives work? What is syntax like and how do all these noun classes come into play under various circumstances?
I'm not quite sure how adjectives will work yet. I was thinking of going down a fairly Japanese route and have them mostly behave as verbs, but I don't really know if that would fit in with the plans I have for verbs, which is, at the moment, starting out as quite Welsh inspired, i.e. handling the majority of conjugation on an auxiliary verb used alongside a verbal noun of some kind. How exactly that will work syntax-wise, though, I'm not sure yet either.

The classifiers for nouns at the moment are something that I haven't really tried before. Right now they only really turn up when a number is used, including "one". I haven't decided yet if they'll turn up with demonstratives at all, but they probably will do. As for noun classes, I might throw in an animate vs. inanimate distinction, but I'm not sure how that might manifest itself. It might be similar to Navajo with the more animate noun appearing before the less animate noun with the verb indicating with of the two is the subject, but we'll see [:)]
Prinsessa wrote:And thanks for reminding me that I need to work on my numbers. :(
I got a message off Janko within about an hour of making this thread [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 04 Feb 2015 18:30

And here's a vague outline of Proto-Lesic and the sound changes leading to Lesi Kirra:

*p *t *c *k *ʔ
(*pp *tt *cc *kk)
(*p' *t' *c' *k')
*m *n *ɲ *ŋ
(*mm *nn *ɲɲ *ŋŋ)
*s *ʃ *h
(*ss *ʃʃ *hh)
*r *l
(*rr *ll)
*w *j
(*ww *jj)

Sounds in brackets were limited to intervocalic position

*i *u
*e *o
*a

CV(j/w/N/h) (none of the coda consonant presented here can occur before a geminate consonant)

Stress fell on the penultimate syllable of the word.

1:

A) Finally:

*wu *ji > [w j]

B) Before a consonant or word-finally:

*iw *uw *ew *ow *aw > [ɯ: u: ɤ: o: ɒ:] > [u: u: o: o: ɑ:]
*ij *uj *ej *oj *aj > [i: y: e: ø: æ:] > [i: i: e: e: æ:]
*iN *uN *eN *oN *aN > [ĩ ũ ẽ õ ã] > [ẽ õ æ̃ ã ɒ̃] > [e o æ ɑ ɑ]
(the nasal is retained before geminate nasals)

2:

*mm *nn *ɲɲ *ŋŋ > [mb nd nɟ ŋg]

3:

Word-initial unstressed *ʔV (but not *ʔV:) was dropped, causing prenasalised voiced stops and ejectives to appear word-initially. Resulting initial geminates became short in isolation but remained geminate in speech.

4:

Stress was dragged leftwards to the antepenultimate if the penultimate contained a short vowel in an open syllable.

5:

Before a consonant or word-finally

Vh > V

6:

*ŋ > ʔ, #_
* ŋ > m, V_V

Word-final long vowels become short.


The main hope is that this should explain why stress is only somewhat predictable while still being irregular in some instances and why long vowels have a limited distribution.

I'm also hoping that the vowel changes that occur in Stage 1 will allow for some vowel alternations in Lesi Kirra's morphology. For example, if some word, say *miku, were to receive the suffix *n, then the resulting reflexes in Lesi Kirra would be ['mi.ku] and ['mi.ko] while another form *mikoj, would result in ['mi.ke]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by shimobaatar » 04 Feb 2015 23:13

Not much to say other than everything looks nice and plausible so far. [:)]

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 05 Feb 2015 19:06

shimobaatar wrote:Not much to say other than everything looks nice and plausible so far. [:)]
Always good to hear [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by Prinsessa » 10 Feb 2015 15:33

Mmmh, purdy protolanging.

Bit systematic underlyingly, m'thought, but then came the allophony/phonotactics stuff. Neat!

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 10 Feb 2015 19:21

Prinsessa wrote:Mmmh, purdy protolanging.
Thank you [:)]
Prinsessa wrote:Bit systematic underlyingly, m'thought, but then came the allophony/phonotactics stuff. Neat!
If it's at all possible, would you might expanding on this point? [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by Prinsessa » 10 Feb 2015 19:35

sangi39 wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:Bit systematic underlyingly, m'thought, but then came the allophony/phonotactics stuff. Neat!
If it's at all possible, would you might expanding on this point? [:)]
Don't really think it is. :( You've nailed it pretty well, I think. Reasonable but interesting rules.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 10 Feb 2015 19:39

Prinsessa wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:Bit systematic underlyingly, m'thought, but then came the allophony/phonotactics stuff. Neat!
If it's at all possible, would you might expanding on this point? [:)]
Don't really think it is. :( You've nailed it pretty well, I think. Reasonable but interesting rules.
Fair enough [:)] The "systematic" comment threw me a little bit, so I thought I'd ask about that [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 11 Feb 2015 14:49

So going back to the verbs, and the idea that most of the grammatical information would be handled by auxiliaries, I've had some thoughts I'd like a bit of feedback on.

Okay, so in the simple present tense, two auxiliaries are used, one being and the other being cuu, with each one being used with different kinds of verbs. For example is predominantly used with states but also verbs of perception, emotion, cognition, location, etc. On the other hand, cuu is used with verbs of motion, action and the like.

There is a degree of overlap, however. For example, while verb of emotion are typically associated with , they can occasionally be used alongside cuu in order to indicate that, a) that emotion exists but also b) that emotion is being actively expressed through various actions, deeds, etc. Similarly, with verbs of perception cuu can indicate that a device or some other means is being used to intensify that perception.

Verb of motion and action can also be used with instead of cuu with the intended meaning becoming one of almost mindless doing without any real thought behind the action. For example, it can express an almost mindless rage when used with the verb "hit" or "stab" or the repetitive chewing performed when distracted when used with "eat".
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by shimobaatar » 11 Feb 2015 21:38

This idea sounds pretty cool! If you're able to, could you give some (preferably glossed) example sentences demonstrating some of the things you've mentioned in that last post?

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 12 Feb 2015 02:03

shimobaatar wrote:This idea sounds pretty cool! If you're able to, could you give some (preferably glossed) example sentences demonstrating some of the things you've mentioned in that last post?
I'll try and come up with some examples tomorrow afternoon (UK time). They'll probably change in some way or another, at least vocabulary-wise and possibly in exactly how certain things are handled morphologically, but I think I can come up with a rough draft [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Lesi Kirra (Scratchpad)

Post by sangi39 » 12 Feb 2015 17:42

Okay, so, here's a rough draft version of a couple of sentences:

pä xu tihu ka
AUX.STAT 1SG to.love 2SG
I love you

pä ka kada re
AUX.STAT 2SG to.see 3SG
You see it

cuu ka male xu
AUX.DYN 2SG to.hit 1SG
You are hitting me

cuu xu yugo
AUX.DYN 1SG to.eat
I am eating

The simple present tense in Lesi Kirra also has a continuous/progressive aspect to it, i.e. the event in question is currently going on at that specific time.

If the opposite auxiliary is used, however, you get the following meanings:

cuu xu tihu ka
AUX.DYN 1SG to.love 2SG
I love you, and am buying you gifts, taking you out, etc. Roughly "I am wooing you", I guess.

cuu ka kada re
AUX.DYN 2SG to.see 3SG
You are spying on it, or keeping an eye on it

pä ka male xu
AUX.STAT 2SG to.hit 1SG
You are hitting me, in a blind rage or in an uncontrollable manner

pä xu yugo
AUX.STAT 1SG to.eat
I am eating, but am currently being distracted by something else

The exact meaning of verbs when used with the opposite auxiliary is usually made clearer in context. For example, cuu xu tihu ka, shown above, can be modified with phrases meaning "with gifts" or "with a song". In the case of the former phrase, the meaning would be "I am buying you gifts, because I love you" while the latter would imply something along the lines of "I am singing you a song, because I love you".

Similarly, with pä xu yugo, the addition of phrases like "with dancing women" or "with conversation" indicate the cause for the speaker's absent-mindedness. The same is similarly true with pä ka male xu where "with drunkeness" or "with jealousy" indicate the cause for the hitting being so out of control.
Last edited by sangi39 on 12 Feb 2015 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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