Daipanese grammar editing session

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Jonnyboi17
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Daipanese grammar editing session

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 30 Jan 2015 03:11

Ok I need help with my conlang, and by that I mean grammar. I want it to be like a southeast Asian-like language with some Sanskrit words. I want it to sound natural, of course. I also want it to sound beautiful and harmonious, not a bunch of random words that come out sloppy.

Ok so lemme show you some background check of this:
Alphabet is a syllabary/abugida or is it abujida? Ok so here are the letters:
Ka
Ga
Nya
Cha
Ja
Ta
Da
Na
Pa
Ba
Ma
Ya
Ra
La
Va
Sa
Sha
Ha
Nga
Za
A
Here are the vowel diacritics with the letter /ka/:
Ka kā ki kī Ku kū kr(a) ke kē Kai Ko kō kau kao kua kam k(no vowel) kei
Kha
And also the certain consonant clusters ( the common ones):
Shcha, ska, Sna, chsha, pta, psa, ksa, bda, bdha, kma, tma, pna, and pra.
*only ka, ga, cha, ja, ta, da, pa, ba, ra, la, sa, sha, and za can be changed to a breathy consonant with an /h/ added to the letter.
Dha is pronounced palatalized (on the top of the mouth)
Zha is pronounced like the j in french 'bonjour'
Lha is glottal/l/ is it?
And (C)am can have the /a/ changed to any vowel diacritics.
And that is all for now:)
Last edited by Jonnyboi17 on 27 Feb 2015 22:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by qwed117 » 30 Jan 2015 03:18

If there are objects that are affixed to a consonant to show vowels, then it is a abugida
If it has a single character for each syllable, then it is a syllabary
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 30 Jan 2015 03:23

Ok thank you than it is an abugida.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 30 Jan 2015 03:24

Wait do you want to see my draft on the abugida?
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by qwed117 » 30 Jan 2015 03:29

That would be nice. [:)]
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by GrandPiano » 30 Jan 2015 03:42

I'm not sure what you mean by the "glottal /l/". Perhaps you mean the "dark l" [ɫ], which can refer to either the velarized l [lˠ] or the pharyngealized l [lˤ]? Since you describe it as "glottal", I'm going to guess you mean the latter, since the pharynx is closer to the glottis than the velum.

You're worried about how the language sounds, but right now, we don't know all of the sounds in your language; mostly, we just have the romanization, and we know what type of writing system it has. You described some of the sounds, namely <dh> [dʲ], <zh> [ʒ] and <lh> [ɫ], although I'm guessing these sound values based on your descriptions. Another problem:
Jonnyboi17 wrote:*only ka, ga, cha, ja, ta, da, pa, ba, ra, la, sa, sha, and za can be changed to a breathy consonant with an /h/
The way you describe it, it sounds like you're talking about aspirated consonants (like [pʰ]) and breathy-voiced consonants (like [bʱ]). However, you then go on to say that <dh> is not [dʱ], but [dʲ], and that <zh> is not [z̤] or whatever a "breathy z" would be, but [ʒ] or some similar sound. The terminology you use here is confusing.

If you're not familiar with the International Phonetic Alphabet, I would suggest that you learn it, or at least refer to a listing of the characters and their phonetic values until you do.

From what I can tell, your phoneme inventory looks something like this (with the romanization on the right):
/p pʰ b bʱ t tʰ d dʱ k kʰ g gʱ/ <p ph b bh t th d dh k kh g gh>
/v s z ʃ ʃʰ(?) ʒ h/ <v s z sh shh zh h>
/t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ <ch j>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/r(?)/ <r>
/j l/ <y l>
(Note: I chose the alveolar trill /r/ for <r> because it's a pretty common rhotic, but <r> could really be [ɾ], [ɽ] [ɹ], [ɻ], [ʁ], [ʀ], [ʙ], or anything else; it could even be a non-rhotic that happens to be transcribed with <r>. This is one of the many good reasons to specify what your phonemes are.)

/i iː e eː u uː o oː a aː/ <i ī e ē u ū o ō a ā>
/ai̯ au̯ ao̯ ua̯/ <ai au ao ua>
(The vowels are especially likely to be wrong because vowel letters can represent so many more sounds across orthographies and romanizations than consonant letters can; again, another good reason to specify your phonemes.)

If my reconstruction is accurate, there are a few pretty strange things about this inventory (mainly in the fricatives), but I'll wait for you to clarify before I pass any judgement.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Khemehekis » 30 Jan 2015 23:15

Daipnaum? Sounds like a conlang for sapient lungfish.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 31 Jan 2015 04:29

ok so what the Lh is pronounced like the L's in the word bull and the normal l is the L in like. Dh is like how Vietnamese d is pronounced, if you know how it sounds. I just wanna clarify that there is a j and y in the letter inventory too.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by GrandPiano » 31 Jan 2015 05:22

OK, so <lh> is [ɫ]. It looks like Vietnamese doesn't have a <dh>, but <đ> is pronounced [ɗ], which is an implosive, and has nothing to do with palatalization, so your two explanations are contradictory. It would be nice if you would go through and explain how each phoneme is pronounced, because letters can stand for a lot of different sounds. Letters like <j> and <y> can especially stand for a lot of sounds; <j> can variously stand for [j], [x], [dʒ], [dʑ], [ʒ], [ɟ], [ɗʒ], [ʄ], [ʝ], and a lot of other sounds. <y> can be a vowel or a consonant, but it seems like you're using it as a consonant, which means it's probably either [j] or [ʝ]. Again, clarification would be great.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 31 Jan 2015 06:00

I see that it's been suggested at least once... But I feel like it would make this conversation a lot easier for everyone if you take a look at it, Johnnyboi.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by GrandPiano » 31 Jan 2015 13:54

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
I see that it's been suggested at least once... But I feel like it would make this conversation a lot easier for everyone if you take a look at it, Johnnyboi.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 04 Feb 2015 21:04

Ok so here are the correct letters and their IPA name:

/p t k pʰ tʰ kʰ b d g ɖ /p t k ph th kh b d g dh
/m n ŋ ɲ /m n ng ny
/v s z ʃ t͡ʃ ʒ ʃʰ t͡ʃʰ dʒ/ v s z sh ch zh shh chh j
/w j l ɭ / w y l lh
/r/ r
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 04 Feb 2015 21:27

Were GrandPiano's guesstimations of your vowels correct?
GrandPiano wrote:/i iː e eː u uː o oː a aː/ <i ī e ē u ū o ō a ā>
/ai̯ au̯ ao̯ ua̯/ <ai au ao ua>
Looks like your stops are pretty standard, if that's a thing, aside from the one lonely retroflex. You do have /v/ without /f/ which is somewhat odd.

Also, I might suggest a somewhat more unified romanization, since you have <h> working overtime as a marker for aspiration, retroflexion, and as a part of digraphs for affricates. But, that may just be my own hang up since I like to assure that my entire system is very unambiguous... Which, may or may not be your goal. Also, it may be moot depending on how your conscript is set up (which you alluded to before).

I'd much like to see a script, since I enjoy conscripting quite a bit.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 04 Feb 2015 22:12

To be honest, I really don't know if it should have f as a consonant, because I don't know if /f/ is common in the Hindu or Southeastern Asian Languages.

The Vowels are on point GrandPiano!!!! [:D] [:D] [:D] also there is /ɛi/ei and /wa~ ua/ ua and e is usually pronounced /ɛ/

Also there are other Diacritics to the vowel system:

They are:

(C)r(V)
(C)(V)m
(C)y(V)
(C)ø (ø means no vowel
(C)ʰ (Aspirated consonant)
(C)(Ṽ̃̃) (Nasal Vowel)
There are also tones:
High (V́)
Low (V̀)
Mid (No marks)
Falling (V̌)
Rising (V̂)
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 04 Feb 2015 22:26

And here is more stuff:
I use /'/ to show a stop in the sentence. This is only used for words that have more than two vowels anywhere in it.
Here is an example:
Ma'a /Ma.a/
Dhau'ē /Dhau.ē/
Glottal stops are only put if the word ends with /t/. Ex. Wat /Waʔ/
There are usually stops on h(V)b(V) word stuctures. Ex. Mahabata /Maha.ba.ta/
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 04 Feb 2015 23:12

I... don't know what you mean by "stops". At first I thought you meant syllable breaks, but I don't see how /maha/ is one syllable. The standard definition of stop is the same as plosive, in terms of phonology, so that also doesn't makes sense...
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by GrandPiano » 05 Feb 2015 00:16

Glottal stops replace all word-final /t/s? That sounds an awful lot like some dialects of English...

You say that <lh> is /ɭ/. How is this "the L's in the word bull" or a "glottal /l/"?

By the way, capital letters are never used in the IPA, regardless of orthographic conventions. And the period /./ is used to indicate a syllable break in a word, usually only used when it would create ambiguity, such as to distinguish a diphthong from two monophthongs. As Thrice Xandvii said, it's not exactly clear what you mean by "stops". Also: You say that <dh> is /ɖ/, but then you transcribe <dhau'ē> as /dhau.ē/? (also, you said that the mid tone was unmarked, but here you mark it with a macron?)

Interesting phonology, though.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Jonnyboi17 » 05 Feb 2015 02:11

The macron actually means a long vowel. Actually yes, the period is used to show a syllable break. And with the "baha" thing, its just that the syllable break between them is long and more exaggerated, even more like a glottal stop.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 05 Feb 2015 04:36

Just to be clear, we're not trying to criticize, just trying to figure out exactly what you mean with some non-standard usage of terminology.

What do you mean by comparing the syllable break to a glottal stop? Because that's a consonant, so having a syllable break act like a consonant seems... odd to me.
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Re: A conlang I need help with: Daipnaum

Post by GrandPiano » 05 Feb 2015 14:10

Thrice Xandvii wrote:Just to be clear, we're not trying to criticize, just trying to figure out exactly what you mean with some non-standard usage of terminology.
[+1]
Jonnyboi17 wrote:And with the "baha" thing, its just that the syllable break between them is long and more exaggerated, even more like a glottal stop.
What do you mean by this? How do you exaggerate a syllable break? You can't really have something between a glottal stop and no glottal stop, unless you've got some weird thing glottalization thing going on, maybe using stiff voice or creaky voice?
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