Conlangs with no infinative

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Tuslaven Kukristo
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Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Tuslaven Kukristo » 22 Feb 2015 01:52

Does anybody have a semi-romantic conlang without infinatives? I created Teeverb Kuluxem intentionally without them, but I'm considering making a revision.

Some examples in Teeverb Kuluxem:

Otnocet otvan - I need to go
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ot /I/ van /go/

Otnocet ubayooda - I need you to help
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ub /you/ ayooda /help/
Fluent: :usa:
Learning: :esp: + :grc: + :rus: + :epo: + :heb: + Toki Pona + ASL
Conlang: Image(Teeverb Kuluxem)

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elemtilas
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by elemtilas » 22 Feb 2015 02:30

Tuslaven Kukristo wrote:Does anybody have a semi-romantic conlang without infinatives? I created Teeverb Kuluxem intentionally without them, but I'm considering making a revision.

Some examples in Teeverb Kuluxem:

Otnocet otvan - I need to go
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ot /I/ van /go/

Otnocet ubayooda - I need you to help
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ub /you/ ayooda /help/
You could always involve some other verbal noun construction:

I am in need of going
I am at going's need
Going is what I need

You can also simply go in the direction you're already seeming to be headed:

I need therefore I go / I need and I go

The second one:

I need your help
I am in need of your helping
Your helpfulness is what I need
I need therefore you help

Image

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Znex » 22 Feb 2015 03:32

Tuslaven Kukristo wrote:Does anybody have a semi-romantic conlang without infinatives? I created Teeverb Kuluxem intentionally without them, but I'm considering making a revision.

Some examples in Teeverb Kuluxem:

Otnocet otvan - I need to go
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ot /I/ van /go/

Otnocet ubayooda - I need you to help
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ub /you/ ayooda /help/
What Mandarin does is use one indeclinable form for each verb and then use verbs in series.
eg. 我要走 <wǒ yào zǒu> lit. I must go
我需要你帮忙 <wǒ xūyào nǐ bāngmáng> lit. I want you help
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: :wls: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: : [:S] | :nor: :deu: :rom: :ind: :con: : [:x]
Conlangs: Pofp'ash, Ikwawese, Old Quelgic, Nisukil Pʰakwi, Apsiska

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Prinsessa » 23 Feb 2015 13:15

Surprised nobody has mentioned the common use of that as seen in (Modern) Greek and (Classical) Arabic alike: I need that I go (as a side note, need/must is an impersonal verb inflected for the third person singular in both of these languages: (it) needs that I go).

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by clawgrip » 23 Feb 2015 13:47

Japanese has no infinitive form. For the sentences above, it uses a conditional for the first one. The second one cannot be translated literally without sounding awkward and unnatural, but can be translated as "I want you to help." This uses an adverbial form called a gerundive (since it is like an adverb in some ways, but it creates subordinate clauses that are sort of like participle phrases.

So:

行かなければならない。
Ikanakereba naranai.
go-NEG-COND become-NEG
"I need to go." (Lit. "If (I) don't go (it) doesn't become.")

手伝ってほしい。
Tetsudatte hoshii.
help-CONJ desireable
I need your help.

I always gloss the adverbial/gerundive form -te as CONJ because it frequently conjoins clauses.

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Creyeditor
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Creyeditor » 23 Feb 2015 14:00

So, if semi-romantic refers to romance languages and infinative refers to infinitive, I think I've got an idea. Since the languages of the Balkan sprachbund seem to avoid infinitives, it is probably a good idea to have a look at the romance languages present there.

:ron: Aromanian:
Are tā s-yinj.
have that.SBJV SBJV come.1SG
I have to come. (literally: It has that I come. )

:ron: Romanian(some dialects)
Vreau să scriu.
want.1SG COMPL write.1SG.SBJV
I want to write. (literally: I want, that I write.)

The conjugated subjunctive form is used instead of the infinitive.
Edit: Typo
Last edited by Creyeditor on 23 Feb 2015 14:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Prinsessa » 23 Feb 2015 14:05

If I'm not mistaken the Greek word distinguishes meanings like should and must or the like, depending on whether the subjunctive is used or not. It's a sensible conlang idea, either way.

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Birdlang » 23 Feb 2015 14:06

How is that pronounced? In IPA?
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by kanejam » 23 Feb 2015 19:58

Birdlang wrote:How is that pronounced? In IPA?
[ðæt] in isolation, although as a grammatical particle it often reduces down a lot.

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Iyionaku » 23 Feb 2015 20:53

As you were asking for conlangs: My main conlang Yélian doesn't use infinitives too (although I've created principle forms, they are never used). An auxillary verb in English is a classifier in Yélian, which is a prefix at the verb. The verb keeps its finiteness.

Re ivavànai. Re ianvànai.
I want to go. I have to go. (Literally: 1SG want-go-1SG, 1SG must-go-1SG)
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Lambuzhao » 23 Feb 2015 21:43

I have come 180 degrees, regarding infinitives in Rozwi.

Originally, I had them. And I used them a lot. But they were a nappy, unkempt, rag-tag lot. [>:(]
So then I regularized them by pretty much jettisoning the older INFs and replacing them with an alternate <NMLZ> form in CēC(C)æ.

But I don't much like how these look. [:S]

So, more and more, I am slowly ebbing toward more and more subjunctive clausal usages, a la Romance and Modern :ell:, and other langs as well.

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Plusquamperfekt » 23 Feb 2015 21:55

Modal verbs in Miwonša:

Yežiman maškiwa. = want-1SG-IPFV go-INF = I want to go (infinitive)
Kwamišan maškjanti. = COP-1SG-IPFV.IND go-SPN = I must go. (supine + indicative)
Kwamišai maškjanti. = COP-1SG-SBJ go-SPN. = I should go. (supine + conditional)
Trenšiman maškiwa. = need-1SG-IPFV go-INF = I need to go. (infinitive)

:/

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by eldin raigmore » 24 Feb 2015 01:16

Tuslaven Kukristo wrote:Does anybody have a semi-romantic conlang without infinitives? I created Teeverb Kuluxem intentionally without them, but I'm considering making a revision.

Some examples in Teeverb Kuluxem:

Otnocet otvan - I need to go
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ot /I/ van /go/

Otnocet ubayooda - I need you to help
ot /I/ nocet /need/ - ub /you/ ayooda /help/
(infinitives, not infinatives).

In the Balkan sprachbund (linguistic area) most languages either have no infinitives/supines* or use them much more rarely than they use other constructions and than other languages use them.
Some Balkan languages are in fact Romance -- are they not?
I know you asked about conlangs, and my "answer" is about natlangs, but maybe you'd rather have natlangs.

*(e.g. "Give that I may drink" rather than "Give me something to drink".)
(But the loss of the infinitive (and/or supine) is not completely uniform (or, not uniformly complete) in the Balkan sprachbund; nor is its replacement by the subjunctive, when/where it has been lost.)

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Micamo » 24 Feb 2015 04:45

To join the bandwagon, Mithara is another example of a lang with no infinitives or indeed, any deverbal forms of any sort. Even verbal nouns are fully inflected as if they were main clause verbs. As an alternative it uses either predicate raising, or two main clauses.

ʔušłak̓anxʷi
u-sh-zuk-'an-xwi
IRRL-1s.A-fish-eat-DESID
I want to eat a fish.
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by eldin raigmore » 24 Feb 2015 06:11

Micamo wrote:To join the bandwagon, Mithara is another example of a lang with no infinitives or indeed, any deverbal forms of any sort. Even verbal nouns are fully inflected as if they were main clause verbs. As an alternative it uses either predicate raising, or two main clauses.

ʔušłak̓anxʷi
u-sh-zuk-'an-xwi
IRRL-1s.A-fish-eat-DESID
I want to eat a fish.
I forget; how Romance-ish is Mithara?

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Micamo » 24 Feb 2015 11:14

Mithara resembles a romance language about as well as a cat resembles an octopus.
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 24 Feb 2015 11:21

Micamo wrote:cat [...] octopus.
Now I want there to be a catopus (felipus? octopussy? yeah... definitely not that last one) in my conworld. [:/]
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Birdlang » 24 Feb 2015 11:54

No. I meant Tuslaven Kukristo's language in IPA.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 24 Feb 2015 11:57

It may have been slightly more clear had you quoted the relevant post.
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Re: Conlangs with no infinative

Post by Lambuzhao » 24 Feb 2015 12:13

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Micamo wrote:cat [...] octopus.
Now I want there to be a catopus (felipus? octopussy? yeah... definitely not that last one) in my conworld. [:/]
Octopuss?

http://www.chrisbeetles.com/sites/defau ... TW0266.jpg

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/567383253024870304/

http://data1.whicdn.com/images/6634360/thumb.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TwCy-DSFAvo/U ... opussy.jpg

Ceviche de gatopulpo... not to be missed! [:P]

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