Abanf, (helping)

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Abanf, (helping)

Post by Keenir » 22 Apr 2015 06:59

Pardon my dust. Construction is ongoing.

This is my attempt to construct a triconsonontal-ish conlang, using as my guidelines the examples and text of The Unfolding Of Language by Guy Deutscher.

Part 1: (Hollow Verbs, nouning them, and analogying)

for now, the copy-and-paste letters.
<hr> [r̥] Word-initial only.
<rd> [ɽ] Word-final only.
<w> [ɸ] (?)


Hollow Verbs:
rhit [r̥it] breathing
rhit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
rhat a [r̥it a] I (will be) breathing)

...yes, that's the famous A Mutation found in both the Semitic languages, as well as Cushtic and Germanic languages. (like Semitic and unlike Germanic, mutating the vowel to <a> changes it to the future tense, not the past tense)...

thid [Tid] walk
thid a [Tid a] I walk
thad [Tad] will walk
thad a [Tad a] I will walk

das [das] angry
das a [das a] I (am) angry
*das, das a {?} I will be angry {note: need to consider this one some more}

therd [Teɽ] sad
therd a [Teɽ a] I (am) sad
thard a [Taɽ a] I (will be) sad

Swelling the Words:
si [si]
si therd [si Teɽ] weep
si therd a [si Taɽ a] I weep

ba [ba] ones who...
ba thid [ba Tid] lit. ones who walk; nomads
ba therd [ba Tiɽ] lit. ones who are sad
ba si therd [ba si therd] lit. the ones who weep; mourners

e- [e] doing...
e-ba si therd [e.ba si Teɽ] lit. the ones who (are) doing the weeping; mourning
e-ba si therd a [e.ba si Teɽ a] I am mourning
e-ba thad a [e.ba Tid a] I will be a nomad

Come together: (the examples in the book, mind, didn't have to come together, as they had no spaces between them)
rhit a -> rhita [r̥it.a] I (am) breathing
rhat a -> rhata [r̥at.a] I (will be) breathing
ba thid [ba Tid] -> bathid [ba.Tid] nomads
e-ba thad a -> eba thada [e.ba Tad.a] -> ebathada [e.ba.Tad.a] I will be a nomad. (yes, it would probably regularize as [e.ba.Ta.da])

Attack of the Analogy! (can be done before doing the swelling, if you prefer)
Being sensible people, the speakers of Abanf reasoned that, if rhita and rhata are the examples of how present and future tenses work, then that should be extended to other verbs that appear hollow (pre- or post-come together)
...if it didn't apply to those verbs, well, that just shows how far the language has fallen into disrepair. In other words, the analogy is extended, whether those verbs want it or not.

kot [kot] (am) betting
was: koto [kot.o] (will be) betting
is now: kat [kat] (will be) betting

paletel [pa.le.tel] to marry
was: feletel [fe.le.tel] will marry
is now: palatal [pa.le.tal] will marry

To Be Continued (as I continue studying examples)
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Re: Abanf, part 2 (sycope - kill all your vowels)

Post by Keenir » 22 Apr 2015 10:21

Keenir wrote:Pardon my dust. Construction is ongoing.

This is my attempt to construct a triconsonontal-ish conlang, using as my guidelines the examples and text of The Unfolding Of Language by Guy Deutscher.

for now, the copy-and-paste letters.
<hr> [r̥] Word-initial only.
<rd> [ɽ] Word-final only.
<w> [ɸ] (?)


To Be Continued (as I continue studying examples)
Down the path of Erosion:
The impression one gets in the book, particularly from Chapter Six, from which all of post#1 in this thread is based upon, is that the goal is to downplay the importance of all vowels except for the "quirky vowel" which we saw change present tense into future tense, and to upplay the consonants having more staying power than those other vowels.

Yes, the consonants erode too, but the idea is to have the vowels erode first.

So, using what we've already coined, let's play...
si therd a -> sitherda [si.Teɽ.a] I weep
si thard a -> sitharda [si.Taɽ.a] I will weep

e-sitharda [e.si.Taɽ.a] I will (be) weeping {possibly now carrying the meaning - implicit or not - of "I will be in the middle of weeping" or simply not yet done crying}

And now we begin the process...

esitharda -> estharda [es.Taɽ.a]

And let's use that to generate a few new words, shall we? Just to test the water wings of what we've done thus far.

∅ kat [kat] (will be) betting -> ba kat [ba kat] (will be) gamblers/gamblers (will be) -> bakat [ba.kat] -> bkat [b.kat] {an epithentic vowel may arise at some point, but that's not the point}

WAIT! What about Past Tense?
Strictly speaking, I've not put past tense in here like I should, and the next step requires past tense. So, let's say that the past tense was originally the word , and as soon as it was latched onto words as a prefix, it went from being aʔ- to being a-

So what starts as e-ba thid a [e.ba Tid a] I will be a nomad
e-ba thad a [e.ba Tad a] I will be a nomad
a-e-ba-thid-a [a.e.ba.Tid.a] I was (being) a nomad

Actually, let's use one that doesn't use the e- doing...as it'll just complicate it too soon.

a-ba-thid-a [a.ba.Tid.a] I was a nomad
Which undergoes a syncope, or removing of central vowels... (erosion, yes)

abthid a [ab.Tid.a] I was a nomad

And remember how the coming together has given us bathada -> bthada [b.Tad.a]

...which reinforces the importance of the consonants, and drops more "hints" that the future tense's Quirky Vowel and its lookalike in the past tense, hold some special meaning.


Up next: back formation (unless I've shot myself in the foot en route, in which case I'll dodge around that & save it for later)...or laryngeals.

Note: One of the exceptions to the predominantly CV.CVC nature of this conlang, is
kalman [kalm.an] will carry out (a/the plan)...which was one of the victims of the backformation/analogying of the first post.
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Abanf, part 3 (a better past tense)

Post by Keenir » 22 Apr 2015 11:12

Keenir wrote:
Keenir wrote:Pardon my dust. Construction is ongoing.

This is my attempt to construct a triconsonontal-ish conlang, using as my guidelines the examples and text of The Unfolding Of Language by Guy Deutscher.

for now, the copy-and-paste letters.
<hr> [r̥] Word-initial only.
<rd> [ɽ] Word-final only.
<w> [ɸ] (?)

To Be Continued (as I continue studying examples)
Up next: back formation (unless I've shot myself in the foot en route, in which case I'll dodge around that & save it for later)...or laryngeals.
hm,,,thinking it over, back-formation will be easier to explain (imho) if I use a different past tense. that doesn't mean I have to get rid of a-...seemingly redundant features can appear in languages (as will be better explained in a later post of this thread)...

So, lets say wuy [ɸu:] starts out (during the a- era) as an emphatic or a marker for the distant past. But eventually it gets used as a prefix for the general past. wu- [ɸu].

si therd a -> sitherda [si.Teɽ.a] I weep

wu-sitherda [ɸu.si.Teɽ.a] I wept

abthida [ab.Tid.a] I was a nomad -> wu-abthida [ɸu.ab.Tid.a]

...and then, once more, use erosion/syncope, and we get:
wustherda [ɸus.Teɽ.a]
&
wubthida [ɸub.Tid.a]

...and then back-formation, which seems to be another word for analogy... After all, the Abanf-speakers noticed this pattern (though the initial <w>[ɸ]s sometimes were gone by that point), and what they saw was that the past tense was marked by an early -u-...and they spread that to all their words that they thought no longer obeyed that rule (which was mostly words that had never gone near that rule)

Such as...
vigotokt [vi.go.tokt] designing
(which thanks to the first Quirk Vowel)...-> vigotakt [vi.go.takt] will design (or vigtakt [vig.takt])
(and now)...-> vugtokt [vug.tokt] designed
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Re: Abanf, part 4 (holding tighter to the book)

Post by Keenir » 23 Apr 2015 06:30

Keenir wrote:Pardon my dust. Construction is ongoing.
This is my attempt to construct a triconsonontal-ish conlang, using as my guidelines the examples and text of The Unfolding Of Language by Guy Deutscher.
for now, the copy-and-paste letters.
<hr> [r̥] Word-initial only.
<rd> [ɽ] Word-final only.
<w> [ɸ]
(?)

okay, in case I missed something, or I misunderstood something, I'm going to emulate the book, example for example...still Chapter 6:

Code: Select all

VERB              ->   ADJECTIVE               ->  VERB
pil                    ša-pil                          a-šapil
lie                  low-lying, lowly           I became low, I humbled myself
...and to hold onto the case ending...šapil-um, as it'll be needed later.

VERB ----------------> ADJECTIVE -----------> VERB
beeh -------------- zom-beeh ---------------- i-zombeeh
[be:h] ------------- [zom.be:h] ---------------- i.zomb.e:h]
lie ------------- low-lying, lowly ---------------- I became low, I humbled myself

aaaand case ending...-iv.
..
now, for the Syncope:

Code: Select all

šapil  --------(with case ending)   šapilum    ---->    šaplum
šapil ---------(w/out case ending)  ašapil  -------->  ašpil   {verb}
zombeeh -------(with case ending) zombeehiv -------> zombhiv
zombeeh -----(w/out case ending) izombeeh -----------> izmbeeh {verb}
..
Back Formation:

Code: Select all

šaplum  'low'      a-špil   'I became low'
{?}  'twisted'    a-ptil   'I twisted'
patlum  'twisted'    a-ptil  'I twisted'
..
The '...-' stand for the person markers (I, we, etc)

Code: Select all

(Ancient Stem)                  Past               Future             Verbal Adjective
(ptil) 'twist'                 ...-ptil         ...-ptal         patlum  'twisted'
(šapil) 'become low'           ...-špil          ...-špal         šaplum  'low'
And earlier, we saw analogy striking at a word...lets see what it does now:
paletel [pa.le.tel] to marry
was: feletel [fe.le.tel] will marry
is now: palatal [pa.le.tal] will marry

paletel* ----(with new case ending) paleteliv [pa.le.tel.iv] --->palteliv [pal.tel.iv]
paletel* ----(w/out new case ending) zompaletel [zom.pa.le.tel] ---->zompletel [zom.ple.tel]

Not bad.
* = the verb now is a past tense, except in palatal. Right?

aaaand...
kalman [kalm.an] will carry out a/the plan.
(it probably used to be kam-la.(n), as some have suggested a link between zom- and kam- prefixes, and the <m><l> simply switched seats)
kalman ------(with new case ending) kalmaniv [kal.man.iv kalm.an.iv] ----> kalmniv [kalm.niv]
kalman --------(without new case ending) zomkalman [zom.kal.man] -----> zomklman [zomk.mlan] (another switching is best?)

..
Now the bare stem never crops up in speech on its own- the forms that speakers actually use are the past, the future, and the verbal adjective. Since new generations of speakers can no longer even recognize the stem from the verbal forms they do use, and since they can no longer discern the vowels of the original stem as a common denominator, all that has remained in their perception as a uniting factor between the different verbal forms are the three consonants. For new speakers faced with this set-up, what bears the core sense 'twist' is no longer a pronounceable chunk ptil, but only the three consonants p-t-l.
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Abanf, part 5 {Numbers!}

Post by Keenir » 23 Apr 2015 07:44

And now, in holding to both my original offer to Azoh, and my promise to Janko...the use of Appendix B {"Laryngeals Again?"} to make numbers...


in the example in the book.....

VERB -------> Past Tense ------------Present Tense
ṣīḥ ['laugh'] ---> aṣīḥ-u ['i laughed'] ----------- aṣīḥ ['i laugh']

...and then speakers inserted "a helping vowel a into it, in front of the bare laryngeal end; but in words where the laryngeal was not the last we hear, no helping vowel gets used.
ṣīḥ ['laugh'] ---> aṣīḥu ['i laughed'] ----------- aṣīaḥ ['i laugh']

...and then, as the -u gets eroded away, then we would be left with
ṣīḥ ['laugh'] ---> aṣīḥ ['i laughed'] ----------- aṣīaḥ ['i laugh']
and assume the reason why it was there was to indicate the present/future. And once this pattern is recognized, it could be extended by analogy to other verbs like mut, ptil, and so on, which never had a laryngeal to their name in the first place:
mūt 'die' amūt ('i died') amūat ('i die') {which in Akkadian got worn down further into amāt ('i die')}



BUT, my aim in this post, is to use analogy to indicate the numbers...

zomaḫ {1} [zom.max] {germination from zom-} ---> zomaūḫ [zom.ma.ux]

...which is promptly extended to cover...

dediūḫ [de.di.ux] {0?}

kliūḫ [kli.ux] {2}

kleoūḫ [kleo.ux] {3}

terliūḫ [terl.iux] {4}

walaūḫ [wa.la.ux] {5}

ḫepeūḫ [xe.pe.ux] {6}

bozaūḫ [bo.za.ux] {7}

romeūḫ [ro.me.ux] {8}

reneigiūḫ [re.nei.gi.ux] {9}

shawalaūḫ [Sa.wa.la.ux] {10}

romereūḫ [ro.me.re.ux] {11}

shaḫepeūḫ [Sa.xe.pe.ux] {12}

xiwalaūḫ [xi.wa.la.ux] {20}

ū
ūḫ
x (ḫ
x (ḫ
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re: Abanf, part 6 (reflexive, causative, intensive)

Post by Keenir » 23 Apr 2015 09:55

REFLEXIVE:

Reflexive requires something called metasynthesis, which I've just been calling switching with their neighbor. It is also seen in Old English...brid->bird, hros->horse, aksian->ask
Appendix C wrote:...t(s)...->...(s)t...
So let's use to- as our reflexive prefix on this.

And now, let us bring back some familiar faces from earlier in this thread...

sitharda [si.Taɽ.a] I will weep

kat [kat] (will be) betting

Okay, now Deutscher says that the metasynthesis will take place when the initial consonant refuses to follow a <t>...

t-sitharda...isn't really about to present a problem. not in the way that we see next:

t-kat -> ktat (imho, this would only work if there's a vowel in front of it)...

oktat [ok.tat okt.at] will be betting on myself

However, this does not exclude the possibility of analogy bringing the to- into the nonproblematic words; we may end up with...
stitharda [sti.Taɽ.a] (ostitharda?)
.


INTENSIVES:

Intensives are wrought into being by reduplication of the second consonant. So...

sitharda -> sithitharda [si.Ti.Taɽ.a] I will lament.

sitharda -> sithatharda [si.Ta.Taɽ.a] I will lament.

However, he then says that its possible the entire root was doubled and then worn down. (cited example: Trukese cön -> cöncön -> cöccön {adjective 'black'})

kat -> katkat [kat.kat] -> katat [ka.tat] (to risk everything)

katat -> katatkat [ka.tat.kat] -> kataktat [ka.takt.at] {idiom/idiomatic?} to have risked everything for everyone. e.g., Captain Rogers' plan wasn't just risky, it was utterly kataktat - but it won the entire war for us.

.


CAUSATIVES:

In Semitic and Germanic languages, these tend to come from using words that mean 'make' and 'cause'. Deutscher says these independent words can then be worn away to prefixes, such as ha- and a-. For this, he uses ša-...
kūn ----------------- ša-kun ---------------------- šakun

to be firm ------------ (a) firm (thing) ---------------- to make firm
...which all makes sense, right? Then he tells us to only look at the ends, ignore the middle...
kūn ----------------------------------- šakun

to be firm ----------------------------------- to make firm
Once again, once new speakers see a pattern like this, they can regularize it to yet more verbs...

sha-kat [Sa.kat] (will) making a bet, (will) making a gamble.

sha-kalman [Sa.kalm.an] will make a carry(ing) out of a/the plan. {a mission}

sha-paletel [Sa.pa.le.tel] make (a) to marry. {a wedding}

sha-vigotokt [Sa.vi.go.tokt] make (a) designing. {plans, layout}

.
planning for an upcoming update: attempting to pass these words through the Grimms Law.
(not sure if I'll try the Passive or Passive Reflexive)
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Re: Abanf, part 5 (Numbers!)

Post by Ahzoh » 23 Apr 2015 10:04

I've been reading this thread the entire time, and I'm still confused [:(]
These things are sensible, but I have a hard time understanding how these changes will relate to my own verbs and whatnot...

For instance, it seems to rely on affixed pronouns, which my conlang does not have.
The future is an ablaut form, while mine uses the prefix "?a-"
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Re: Abanf, part 5 (Numbers!)

Post by Keenir » 23 Apr 2015 10:18

Ahzoh wrote:I've been reading this thread the entire time, and I'm still confused [:(]
These things are sensible,
thank you.
but I have a hard time understanding how these changes will relate to my own verbs and whatnot...
sometimes the only thing that helps me, is to write it out...and see how it applies. (maybe write it out with your already-made words; maybe write it out first with some nonsense words)

don't worry about the elaborate and fancy things...ablauts and 3rd person reflexive obligations.....start with what the steps and examples demonstrate, and then use that as a springboard into other things.
For instance, it seems to rely on affixed pronouns, which my conlang does not have.
The future is an ablaut form, while mine uses the prefix "?a-"
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Re: Abanf, part 5 (Numbers!)

Post by Ahzoh » 23 Apr 2015 11:01

Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I've been reading this thread the entire time, and I'm still confused [:(]
These things are sensible,
thank you.
but I have a hard time understanding how these changes will relate to my own verbs and whatnot...
sometimes the only thing that helps me, is to write it out...and see how it applies. (maybe write it out with your already-made words; maybe write it out first with some nonsense words)

don't worry about the elaborate and fancy things...ablauts and 3rd person reflexive obligations.....start with what the steps and examples demonstrate, and then use that as a springboard into other things.
For instance, it seems to rely on affixed pronouns, which my conlang does not have.
The future is an ablaut form, while mine uses the prefix "?a-"
But I can't find the principal cause of the Analogy Machine, so I look at what you do and what Deutscher does for a clue.

Somewhere between Taksheyut and Pre-Vrkhazhian, a triconsonantal root system develops.
Here, I got some Taksheyut verbs:
sab "to kill"
?ol "to see"
?osh (sh is one consonant) "to burn"
khuzh "to be significant"
khut "to stab"
vil "to discipline"
gil "to look"

Then there are the verbal affixes -r (chaotizer), -m- (durational), reduplication (intensifier)
dazh "to separate"
sabr "to massacre" (from sab, in Pre-V is s-b-r)
dazhr "to disperse" (from dazh, in Pre-V is d-zh-r)
?əmosh "to burn for a long time" (?-m-sh)
khmup "to stab for a long time" (kh-m-p)
gigil "to search" (g-g-l)

So now I have to figure out how they will analogize into the active and passive present singular stems CuCaC and CaCeC, which are considered the "base" stem or unmarked stem.
After that, it can be as easy as:
nisu?ab > nis?ab "I/you/he/she/it killed"
sa?ebam > sa?bam "we/y'all/they are killed"
?asu?ab > ?as?ab "I/you/he/she/it will kill"
nizikhutsa?eb > nizkhutsa?eb > nizkhusta?eb "I/you/he/she/it promised to be killed"
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Re: Abanf, part 5 (Numbers!)

Post by Keenir » 23 Apr 2015 11:16

Ahzoh wrote:
Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I've been reading this thread the entire time, and I'm still confused [:(]
These things are sensible,
thank you.
but I have a hard time understanding how these changes will relate to my own verbs and whatnot...
sometimes the only thing that helps me, is to write it out...and see how it applies. (maybe write it out with your already-made words; maybe write it out first with some nonsense words)

don't worry about the elaborate and fancy things...ablauts and 3rd person reflexive obligations.....start with what the steps and examples demonstrate, and then use that as a springboard into other things.
For instance, it seems to rely on affixed pronouns, which my conlang does not have.
The future is an ablaut form, while mine uses the prefix "?a-"
But I can't find the principal cause of the Analogy Machine, so I look at what you do and what Deutscher does for a clue.
'cause'? analogy happens because people are built to see patterns (in landscapes, in words, in food), and when they see what they think is a pattern, they apply it all over the place.
Somewhere between Taksheyut and Pre-Vrkhazhian, a triconsonantal root system develops.
Here, I got some Taksheyut verbs:
sab "to kill"
?ol "to see"
?osh (sh is one consonant) "to burn"
khuzh "to be significant"
khut "to stab"
vil "to discipline"
gil "to look"

Then there are the verbal affixes -r (chaotizer), -m- (durational), reduplication (intensifier)
quite nice.
dazh "to separate"
sabr "to massacre" (from sab, in Pre-V is s-b-r)
that one seems to be a suffix -Vr that lost its vowel.
dazhr "to disperse" (from dazh, in Pre-V is d-zh-r)
possibly the same suffix at work there.
So now I have to figure out how they will analogize into the active and passive present singular stems CuCaC and CaCeC, which are considered the "base" stem or unmarked stem.
I think I see the problem: its something that grips me tightly too, and has killed more than its fair share of my conlangs and fanfics. the problem is that you're focused on the ending, nearly to the exclusion of all else.

work on the prefixes/suffixes and the eroding. practice that for a bit {with Taksheyut or with something else}. the analogying only works after you've done that.
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Re: Abanf, part 5 (Numbers!)

Post by Ahzoh » 23 Apr 2015 11:25

Keenir wrote:
So now I have to figure out how they will analogize into the active and passive present singular stems CuCaC and CaCeC, which are considered the "base" stem or unmarked stem.
I think I see the problem: its something that grips me tightly too, and has killed more than its fair share of my conlangs and fanfics. the problem is that you're focused on the ending, nearly to the exclusion of all else.

work on the prefixes/suffixes and the eroding. practice that for a bit {with Taksheyut or with something else}. the analogying only works after you've done that.
I knew there would be problems working diachronically backwards, but there has to be a way.
Maybe some sort of semantic shift or whatever of some tense becoming present tense... because it seems every Semitic language's base stems are all past tense.

?osh u > ?ush u > ?ushu(?)
sab u > sub u > subu(?)
sabr u > subr u > subru > subur(?)
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Re: Abanf, part 5 (Numbers!)

Post by Keenir » 23 Apr 2015 11:48

while you were typing this, I thought of another way of explaining analogy: look at the numbers. only two began with the mutation into -ūḫ...and I could have left it with all the numbers' -h endings and -ḫ endings changed into -ūḫ (which would be analogy, yes)...but I went even further, and said "okay, anything that is a number AT ALL, gets a -ūḫ ending.
Ahzoh wrote:
Keenir wrote:
So now I have to figure out how they will analogize into the active and passive present singular stems CuCaC and CaCeC, which are considered the "base" stem or unmarked stem.
I think I see the problem: its something that grips me tightly too, and has killed more than its fair share of my conlangs and fanfics. the problem is that you're focused on the ending, nearly to the exclusion of all else.

work on the prefixes/suffixes and the eroding. practice that for a bit {with Taksheyut or with something else}. the analogying only works after you've done that.
I knew there would be problems working diachronically backwards, but there has to be a way.
diachronics were never something I was good at. (that's why Grimms Law is on my to-do list)

sometimes, to go forward, you have to go back a bit - or vice versa in this instance.
Maybe some sort of semantic shift or whatever of some tense becoming present tense... because it seems every Semitic language's base stems are all past tense.
no idea. maybe that's an artifact of the quirk vowel and the erosion, maybe not.
?osh u > ?ush u > ?ushu(?)
sab u > sub u > subu(?)
sabr u > subr u > subru > subur(?)
the middle one (at least) reminds me of vowel harmony.
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Re: Abanf, part (Grimms Lawing it)

Post by Keenir » 24 Apr 2015 01:32

d -> t [t̪]
k -> ch [C]
p -> f [f]

das [das] angry -> tas [t̪as] hollow, empty, numb.

das a [das a] I (am) angry -> tas a [t̪as a] I (am) hollow, I (am) empty, I (am) numb.

kat (to gamble) -> katkat [kat.kat] (to risk it all) -> chatat [Ca.tat] to spend everything/it all

kat [kat] (will be) betting -> chat [Chat] (will be) spending.

ba thid [ba Tid] ones who walk; nomads -> ba thit [ba Tit̪] ones who farm; urbanites.

palatal [pa.le.tal] will marry -> falatal [fa.le.tal] eloping
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Re: Abanf, part 7 (dabbled in Grimms Law)

Post by GrandPiano » 24 Apr 2015 14:24

Keenir wrote:Hollow Verbs:
rhit [r̥it] breathing
rhit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
rhat a [r̥it a] I (will be) breathing)
Surely this should be:

hrit [r̥it] breathing
hrit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
hrat a [r̥at a] I (will be) breathing)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: Abanf, part 7 (dabbled in Grimms Law)

Post by Ahzoh » 24 Apr 2015 15:27

GrandPiano wrote:
Keenir wrote:Hollow Verbs:
rhit [r̥it] breathing
rhit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
rhat a [r̥it a] I (will be) breathing)
Surely this should be:

hrit [r̥it] breathing
hrit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
hrat a [r̥at a] I (will be) breathing)
And I don't know what the purpose of the a-vowel is. A pronoun?
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Re: Abanf, part 7 (dabbled in Grimms Law)

Post by Keenir » 25 Apr 2015 07:44

GrandPiano wrote:
Keenir wrote:Hollow Verbs:
rhit [r̥it] breathing
rhit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
rhat a [r̥it a] I (will be) breathing)
Surely this should be:

hrit [r̥it] breathing
hrit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
hrat a [r̥at a] I (will be) breathing)
oh. yes. typo on my part.

thank you.
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Re: Abanf, part 7 (dabbled in Grimms Law)

Post by Ahzoh » 25 Apr 2015 08:29

Keenir wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Keenir wrote:Hollow Verbs:
rhit [r̥it] breathing
rhit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
rhat a [r̥it a] I (will be) breathing)
Surely this should be:

hrit [r̥it] breathing
hrit a [r̥it a] I (am) breathing
hrat a [r̥at a] I (will be) breathing)
oh. yes. typo on my part.

thank you.
There are quite a few typo, especially regarding "palatal"

And what is the purpose of the a-vowel at the end?
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Re: Abanf, part 7 (dabbled in Grimms Law)

Post by Keenir » 25 Apr 2015 09:12

Ahzoh wrote:
Keenir wrote:oh. yes. typo on my part.

thank you.
There are quite a few typo, especially regarding "palatal"
yes or no - did my typos make it illegible or non-understandable?

you asked for help, and I have tried to give it.
And what is the purpose of the a-vowel at the end?
it was an "I am"...an A Mutation...though Deutscher had the A Mutation at the start of the hollow verbs (biconsonantal, you might call them)...so there it would be a rhit and not rhit a.
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Re: Abanf, (p1-7: an attempt to make a triconsonantal conl

Post by Ahzoh » 25 Apr 2015 09:19

yes or no - did my typos make it illegible or non-understandable?
They confused me, I thought the changes were allophonic.
it was an "I am"...an A Mutation...though Deutscher had the A Mutation at the start of the hollow verbs (biconsonantal, you might call them)...so there it would be a rhit and not rhit a.
So, a present tense suffix? And an e-mutation would do the same?
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Re: Abanf, (p1-7: an attempt to make a triconsonantal conl

Post by Keenir » 25 Apr 2015 09:38

Ahzoh wrote:
yes or no - did my typos make it illegible or non-understandable?
They confused me, I thought the changes were allophonic.
I have no idea.
(I haven't gotten to allophony in any of my lessons in any conlang)
it was an "I am"...an A Mutation...though Deutscher had the A Mutation at the start of the hollow verbs (biconsonantal, you might call them)...so there it would be a rhit and not rhit a.
So, a present tense suffix? And an e-mutation would do the same?
yes; I suppose it was signifigant there was a tense change alongside the addition of "I am".

if the only difference between e-mutation and a-mutation is which vowel changes, I don't see why it wouldn't do the same; if there's some other/additional difference, then I have no idea.
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