Proto-Skawlas

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Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 19 May 2015 12:50

So, while I'm kind of stuck with a creative block regarding Proto-Sirdic and Lesi Kirra, I thought I'd start some work on a third proto-language for Yantas called Proto-Skawlas.

Phonology


Phoneme Inventory


Consonants

/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ/ <p t ṭ k>
/p t ʈʰ k ʔ/ <b d ḍ g q>
/s ʂ h/ <s ṣ h>
/m n/ <m n>
/r l/ <r l>
/w j/ <w j>


Vowels

/i u/ <i u>
/a/ <a>
/m n r l/ <ṃ ṇ ṛ ḷ>

Where derive from a syllabic /j w ʔ/, <ị ụ ạ> are used instead.
[e o ə] are written <e o ë> , except when [ə] derives from syllabic /h/, where it is written <>

Syllable Structure

(s)C(r, l, w, j)V(p, t, k, ʔ, s, h, m, n, r, l, w, j)

If C is followed by another sound, it cannot be one of /r l w j/
If C is preceded by /s/, it cannot itself be /s/


Ablaut and Stress

Stress and ablaut interact with each other, causing certain sounds to reduce in certain environments.

The placement of stress is somewhat complex, but largely relies on interactions between underlying stress of morphemes, i.e. some morphemes are stressed, while others are not.

Stress Placement

a) Monosyllabic morphemes are either unstressed or stressed.
b) Polysyllabic morphemes are stressed on the final syllable, unless the penultimate syllable is heavier, in which case stress moves backwards.
c) If two or more syllables within a fully formed word are stressed, the rightmost syllable receives primary or “strong” stress on the phonetic level.
d) Other stressed syllables receive secondary or “weak” stress, unless adjacent to the fully stressed syllable, in which case they are unstressed.
e) If no syllable is stressed within a fully formed word, then the final syllable is stressed, unless the penultimate syllable is heavier, in which case stress moves backwards.

Ablaut

a) Strongly stressed /i u a/ are realised as in closed syllables and [i: u: a:] in open syllables.
b) Weakly stressed /i u a/ are realised as [e o ə].
c) Unstressed /i u a/ are realised as either [ə] (when followed by a tautosyllabic plosive or /s/) or [0] (when followed by any other sound).
d) Syllabic instances of /j w ʔ h/ are realised as [i u a ə].

A note regarding the final point, is that only post-vocalic /j w ʔ h m n r l/ can become syllablic, so, for instance instressed /kju/ would become [kjə], not [ki] and likewise unstressed /nwin/ would become [nwṇ], not [nun].



Allophony


Aspirated Plosives

When two aspirated plosives appear as the onset of two adjacent syllables, the right-hand one causes the left-hand one to de-aspirate, e.g. /kʰatʰu/ > [katʰu]. This process is regressive, so de-aspiration amongst a group of three aspirated plosives will affect the middle on, and the first and third in a group of four and so on and so on.


Coda Nasals

Coda nasals, but not syllabic nasals, assimilate to the POA of a following plosive onset.


Retroflex Consonants

When /s l r n t/ directly precede either /ʈ/, /ʈʰ/ or /ʂ/, they in turn become retroflex [ʂ ɭ ɽ ɳ ʈ]

Similarly, if /r l/ directly follow /ʈ/, /ʈʰ/ or /ʂ/, they become retroflex [ɽ ɭ]

This assimilation process does not affect syllable sounds.


Vowel Clusters

Vowel clusters are handled after stress and ablaut have taken place, meaning that, realistically speaking, if two vowels appear together, one will be a weakly stressed vowel, [e o ə], or an unstressed syllabic vowel, while the other will be a strongly stressed. vowel, .

Code: Select all

     [i]- [u]- [a]-
-[i] [i:] [uj] [aj]
-[u] [iw] [u:] [aw]
-[a] [iʔ] [uʔ] [a:]
-[e] [i:] [uj] [aj]
-[o] [iw] [u:] [aw]
-[ə] [ih] [uh] [ah]
-[m] [im] [um] [am]
-[n] [in] [un] [an]
-[r] [ir] [ur] [ar]
-[l] [il] [ul] [al]

     [i]- [u]- [a]- [e]- [o]- [ə]- [m]-  [n]-  [r]-  [l]-
-[i] [i:] [uj] [aj] [ej] [oj] [əj] [ṃmi] [ṇni] [ṛri] [ḷli]
-[u] [iw] [u:] [aw] [ew] [ow] [əw] [ṃmu] [ṇnu] [ṛru] [ḷlu]
-[a] [iʔ] [uʔ] [a:] [eʔ] [oʔ] [əʔ] [ṃma] [ṇna] [ṛra] [ḷla]
When a stressed vowel is followed by an unstressed or weakly stressed vowel, the unstressed or weakly stressed vowel becomes non-syllabic, reverting back to its consonantal counterpart.

When a strong vowel is preceded by an unstressed or weakly stressed vowel, on the other hand, stress shifts backwards to the unstressed or weakly stressed vowel, which maintains its quality, causing the stressed vowel to become non-syllabic, shifting to its consonantal counterpart.*

The exception to this final rule involves syllabic /m n r l/, which when followed by a stressed vowel, remain unstressed an syllabic, as does the stressed vowel, but takes an epenthetic non-syllabic consonant which appears between the two vowels.

I'll try and add some examples regarding stress and ablaut as I go along. Right now it's more at an idea stage.

*One thing I've noticed about this is that it allows all vowels to appear in phonetically stressed syllables (except syllabic /m n r l/). I'll likely still describe everything beyond /i u a/ as allophonic, since their appearance is conditioned, but it's a lot more complicated than I'd originally thought it would be.
Last edited by sangi39 on 19 May 2015 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 19 May 2015 13:42

So, quick test of the stress-ablaut rules:

/sur-as/ > [sur.as] > [su.rás] > [sə.rás] > [srás]
/sur-ít/ > [su.rít ] > [su.rít] > [sə.rít] > [srít]
/míl-as/ > [mí.las] > [mí.las] > [mí.ləs] > [mí.ləs]
/míl-ít/ > [mí.lít] > [mi.lít] > [mə.lít] > [mlít]

/kilán-as/ > [ki.lá.nas] > [ki.lá.nas] > [kə.lá.nəs] > [klá.nəs]
/kilán-ít/ > [ki.lá.nít] > [ki.la.nít] > [ke.lə.nít] > [kel.nít]
/túrpʰa-as/ > [túr.pʰa.as] > [túr.pʰa.as] > [túr.pʰə.əs] > [túr.pʰəs]
/túrpʰa-ít/ > [túr.pʰa.ít] > [tur.pʰa.ít] > [tor.pʰə.ít] > [tor.pʰít]
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by smappy » 19 May 2015 14:23

Looks a little like PIE but in the best way possible. I'm super curious to see how the syllabic consonants will develop and how these complicated stress/ablaut changes will interact with morphology!
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 19 May 2015 16:24

smappy wrote:Looks a little like PIE but in the best way possible.
Thanks [:)] PIE was definitely one of the main inspirations behind the structure of this conlang, but I'm still trying to go for something original.

The stress and ablaut pattern, for example, was something I could actually try and get my head around and have a definite origin for (and it's more or less based on similar systems I've used before when trying to show how apophonic processes might arise), as opposed to the more opaque and somewhat more mysterious ablaut found in PIE, which in some instances allows for a stressed zero-grade.
smappy wrote:I'm super curious to see how the syllabic consonants will develop and how these complicated stress/ablaut changes will interact with morphology!
Well, the syllabic allophones of /j w h ʔ/ will likely stay as they are, although I can imagine [ə] is going to undergo some changes fairly early on. As for [ṃ ṇ ṛ ḷ], I've got a few divergent plans for them.

One of the reasons that I didn't want prevocalic /r l/ to become syllabic in the zero-grade was so that I could have unpredictable metathesis in some forms. For example, say we have /klV/ and /kVl/, which would appear as [klV] and [kḷ] in the zero-grade. In one language, I want these two to merge into [klə], meaning that in one word the /klV/ structure will always be maintained, but in another word the it varies between /kVl/ and /klV/. In another language, however, I wanted to re-insert [ə] before [ṃ ṇ ṛ ḷ] so that you'd get the following correspondences between the two languages:

PS > A : B
/klV/ > [klV] : [klV]
~[klə] > [klV] : [klV]
/kVl/ > [kVl] : [kVl]
~[kḷ] > [klV] : [kVl]

So in B, there's no variation, at least in syllable structure, at all, while in A there is. Likewise, A's [klV] corresponds to either [klV] or [kVl] in A and B's [kVl] corresponds to either [kVl] or [klV] in A. It certainly might make looking at the side by side quite fun [:)]

As for how ablaut and stress might interact with morphology, I'll have to get on that fairly soon [:P]
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by shimobaatar » 19 May 2015 22:04

sangi39 wrote:So, while I'm kind of stuck with a creative block regarding Proto-Sirdic and Lesi Kirra, I thought I'd start some work on a third proto-language for Yantas called Proto-Skawlas.
Well, on the one hand, I'm sorry to hear you're feeling stuck in some areas, but on the other hand, we get to see another Yantas language! [:D]

sangi39 wrote:Where derive from a syllabic /j w ʔ/, <ị ụ ạ> are used instead.
[e o ə] are written <e o ë> , except when [ə] derives from syllabic /h/, where it is written <>


Very cool bit of orthographic depth here!

sangi39 wrote:a) Monosyllabic morphemes are either unstressed or stressed.
b) Polysyllabic morphemes are stressed on the final syllable, unless the penultimate syllable is heavier, in which case stress moves backwards.
c) If two or more syllables within a fully formed word are stressed, the rightmost syllable receives primary or “strong” stress on the phonetic level.
d) Other stressed syllables receive secondary or “weak” stress, unless adjacent to the fully stressed syllable, in which case they are unstressed.
e) If no syllable is stressed within a fully formed word, then the final syllable is stressed, unless the penultimate syllable is heavier, in which case stress moves backwards.


That's a lovely level of detail!

In this language, what characteristics make a syllable "heavy"?

sangi39 wrote:c) Unstressed /i u a/ are realised as either [ə] (when followed by a tautosyllabic plosive or /s/) or [0] (when followed by any other sound).


Ablaut is nice in general, but it's especially fun to see it coming into existence, so to speak. (Forgive my ignorance, but [0] is no different from [Ø], correct? They both just represent deletion?)

sangi39 wrote:A note regarding the final point, is that only post-vocalic /j w ʔ h m n r l/ can become syllablic, so, for instance instressed /kju/ would become [kjə], not [ki] and likewise unstressed /nwin/ would become [nwṇ], not [nun].


I'm probably missing something, but why would unstressed /kju/ become [kjə] instead of [kj0~kj~ki]? Since the /u/ isn't followed by a tautosyllabic stop or /s/, wouldn't it be deleted?

sangi39 wrote:This process is regressive, so de-aspiration amongst a group of three aspirated plosives will affect the middle on, and the first and third in a group of four and so on and so on.


Oh, cool! Does this happen in any natlangs that you know of with Grassmann's law-type rules like this, or is it something you came up with as a logical extension of that type of law? It feels like a perfectly naturalistic thing to me, but I'm not sure how many actual Ancient Greek/Sanskrit/etc. words had three or more aspirated stops "in a row".

sangi39 wrote:The exception to this final rule involves syllabic /m n r l/, which when followed by a stressed vowel, remain unstressed an syllabic, as does the stressed vowel, but takes an epenthetic non-syllabic consonant which appears between the two vowels.


Interesting! (I also quite like the way these situations are transcribed - [ṃma] [ṇna] [ṛra] [ḷla], etc.)

[hr][/hr]

Looking forward to seeing more of this in the future! [:D]

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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 20 May 2015 11:39

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:So, while I'm kind of stuck with a creative block regarding Proto-Sirdic and Lesi Kirra, I thought I'd start some work on a third proto-language for Yantas called Proto-Skawlas.
Well, on the one hand, I'm sorry to hear you're feeling stuck in some areas, but on the other hand, we get to see another Yantas language! [:D]
Thanks [:)] I think some of it might be a time issue. I feel like I have the time to get some conlanging done, but when I'm at work most days, my ideas are pretty random and not often related to a conlang I'm actually working on. When I get home I end up expanding on those, doing some reading, seeing what I can do with it, and then shelving it as a potential idea in the future. By the end of the day, I'll have ended up doing almost nothing in relation to Proto-Sirdic or Lesi Kirra [:P]

I'm still enjoying those two, though, I just need to focus a bit more. Saying "would you like a carrier bag" or "that's X pounds" for 8 hours a day with a fake smile on my face certainly draws time away from conlanging lol

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Where derive from a syllabic /j w ʔ/, <ị ụ ạ> are used instead.
[e o ə] are written <e o ë> , except when [ə] derives from syllabic /h/, where it is written <>


Very cool bit of orthographic depth here!


I as tempted to leave them at just <i u a e o ë>, but it made more sense, to me at least, to show where some of the allophones came from as well. It's not a perfect system, though, since it doesn't distinguish between underlying /j w h ʔ/ and instances of [j w h ʔ] which derive from vocalic fortition in vowel clusters, but by the time I'd come up with that, I was already pretty happy with the orthography [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:a) Monosyllabic morphemes are either unstressed or stressed.
b) Polysyllabic morphemes are stressed on the final syllable, unless the penultimate syllable is heavier, in which case stress moves backwards.
c) If two or more syllables within a fully formed word are stressed, the rightmost syllable receives primary or “strong” stress on the phonetic level.
d) Other stressed syllables receive secondary or “weak” stress, unless adjacent to the fully stressed syllable, in which case they are unstressed.
e) If no syllable is stressed within a fully formed word, then the final syllable is stressed, unless the penultimate syllable is heavier, in which case stress moves backwards.


That's a lovely level of detail!

In this language, what characteristics make a syllable "heavy"?


Heavy syllables are just closed syllables. So for the penultimate syllable of a morpheme to be heavier than the final one, the final one would have to be open and the penultimate one closed.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:c) Unstressed /i u a/ are realised as either [ə] (when followed by a tautosyllabic plosive or /s/) or [0] (when followed by any other sound).


Ablaut is nice in general, but it's especially fun to see it coming into existence, so to speak. (Forgive my ignorance, but [0] is no different from [Ø], correct? They both just represent deletion?)


Yeah, I've always been uneasy with having an ablaut system that sort of came out of nowhere. They can look cooler, but I prefer the idea of starting with a small set of rules and seeing how they go [:)]

And, yep, [0] and [Ø] would be the same thing, i.e. deletion. Given all the copying and pasting and "insert symbol" stuff I do when I get into conlanging, I'm surprised I keep using [0] instead [:P]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:A note regarding the final point, is that only post-vocalic /j w ʔ h m n r l/ can become syllablic, so, for instance unstressed /kju/ would become [kjə], not [ki] and likewise unstressed /nwin/ would become [nwṇ], not [nun].


I'm probably missing something, but why would unstressed /kju/ become [kjə] instead of [kj0~kj~ki]? Since the /u/ isn't followed by a tautosyllabic stop or /s/, wouldn't it be deleted?


My general thought was that the vowel is only deleted in an open syllable if the onset can also appear in coda position or if the next morpheme begins with a vowel (which would keep the onset as an onset). It's basically an exception to the rule which preserves onset clusters (it also applies to unstressed open syllables with an aspirated plosive for an onset).

I do have a plan, expanding on what I wrote above about the development of syllabic consonants, is for one branch to include /r l w j/ in onsets in becoming syllabic, such that in that particular branch, unstressed /kju/ would indeed shift to [ki].


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:This process is regressive, so de-aspiration amongst a group of three aspirated plosives will affect the middle on, and the first and third in a group of four and so on and so on.


Oh, cool! Does this happen in any natlangs that you know of with Grassmann's law-type rules like this, or is it something you came up with as a logical extension of that type of law? It feels like a perfectly naturalistic thing to me, but I'm not sure how many actual Ancient Greek/Sanskrit/etc. words had three or more aspirated stops "in a row".


I can't really imagine a scenario where it's going to turn up, and I can't think of an attested example in Ancient Greek or Sanskrit, so it's really just an extension of Grassman's Law more than anything else, one that pretty much stands there as a "just in case". I'd rather have the law and not need it than need the law and not have it [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:The exception to this final rule involves syllabic /m n r l/, which when followed by a stressed vowel, remain unstressed an syllabic, as does the stressed vowel, but takes an epenthetic non-syllabic consonant which appears between the two vowels.


Interesting! (I also quite like the way these situations are transcribed - [ṃma] [ṇna] [ṛra] [ḷla], etc.)


I quite liked it as well. I was a bit unsure about what to do with these vowel clusters, but epenthesis seems to have worked out quite nicely [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:Looking forward to seeing more of this in the future! [:D]


Me too [:)] While it kind of looks a bit like PIE at the moment, because all we have is the phonology, I've been thinking about adding in features that aren't found in PIE, like direct-inverse marking.
Last edited by sangi39 on 20 May 2015 17:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 20 May 2015 17:12

Reduplication

Reduplication is a feature of Proto-Skawlas found in nouns, adjectives and verbs, serving a number of different functions, from forming plurals to indicating repetition or intensity.

Nouns

Reduplication in nouns performs two functions, 1) forming plurals and 1) forming augmentative nouns.

Plural Reduplication

When forming plurals, the final syllable of the noun's root is reduplicated, either fully or partially.

Consonantal stems are only partially reduplicated, with only the rhyme being repeated:

/'skar/ (dog) > /ska'rar/ (dogs) ['skar] > ['skrar]
/'mik/ (man) > /mi'kik/ (men) > ['mik] > ['mə'kik]
/'lis/ (woman) > /li'lis/ (women) > ['lis] > [lə'lis]
/si'pik/ (boat) > /si.pi'kik/ > (boats) ['spik] > [sep'kik]

Vocalic stems, on the other hand, are fully reduplicated, with the onset and nucleus being repeated:

/pi'li/ (round object) > /pili'li/ (round objects) ['pli] > [pel'li]
/'rap.ʈʰi/ (plough) > /rap.ʈʰi'ʈʰi/ (ploughs) ['rap.ʈʰə] > [rəp.ʈə'ʈʰi]
/'ma/ (mother [informal]) > /ma'ma/ (mothers) ['ma] > [mə'ma]

You might notice that the reduplicated element and the original root form a single plural root, causing stress to fall on that root according to the rules mentioned about, hence the movement of stress between forms.


Augmentative Reduplication

One method of forming augmentative nouns, typically from inanimate objects, but also from familial words, especially "informal" ones, is to use initial reduplication, repeating the onset and nucleus of the first syllable:

/ju'ku/ (stone) > /ju.ju'ku/ (large rock) ['jə'ku] > [joj'ku]
/'tlah.ma/ (hill) > /tla'tlah.ma/ (mountain) ['tlah.mə] > [tlə'tlah.mə]
/hi'rus/ (woods) > /hi.hi'rus/ (forest) ['hrus] > [heh'rus]

Plural augmentatives are naturally formed by means of two lots of reduplication:

/ju.ju'ku/ (large rock) > /ju.ju.ku'ku/ (large rocks) [joj'ku] > [jəjok'ku]
/tla'tlah.ma/ (mountain) > /tla.tlah.ma'ma/ (mountains) [tlə'tlah.mə] > [tlə.tləh.mə'ma]
/hi.hi'rus/ (forest) > /hi.hi.rus'rus/ (forests) [heh'rus] > [hə.he.rəs'rus]
Last edited by sangi39 on 22 May 2015 21:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by shimobaatar » 21 May 2015 00:41

sangi39 wrote:I think some of it might be a time issue. I feel like I have the time to get some conlanging done, but when I'm at work most days, my ideas are pretty random and not often related to a conlang I'm actually working on. When I get home I end up expanding on those, doing some reading, seeing what I can do with it, and then shelving it as a potential idea in the future.
Heh, I know the feeling.
sangi39 wrote:I'm still enjoying those two, though, I just need to focus a bit more. Saying "would you like a carrier bag" or "that's X pounds" for 8 hours a day with a fake smile on my face certainly draws time away from conlanging lol
Sorry to hear you have a job like that. [:(]
sangi39 wrote:I've been thinking about adding in features that aren't found in PIE, like direct-inverse marking.
Looking forward to seeing how this comes into play!

The system of noun reduplication is also cool. I especially like how ablaut and allophony keep reduplicated words (especially plural augmentatives) from sounding too repetitive!

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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 21 May 2015 01:46

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:I think some of it might be a time issue. I feel like I have the time to get some conlanging done, but when I'm at work most days, my ideas are pretty random and not often related to a conlang I'm actually working on. When I get home I end up expanding on those, doing some reading, seeing what I can do with it, and then shelving it as a potential idea in the future.
Heh, I know the feeling.
At least now, unlike previous conlanging attempts, I've actually got something I'm more or less set on working with, i.e. Yantas. Before, my conlanging efforts never really amounted to anything, and being fairly disorganised, they often fell apart after I became board with them. With this one, I'm trying to spread the work out while maintaining some sort of pattern, which is probably why Proto-Sirdic and Lesi Kirra are at round about the same point of development (ish). Once I hit a roadblock, move onto something else and keep going until I get to about the same point, then go back to an older area. I'm hoping that'll work anyway [:P]

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:I'm still enjoying those two, though, I just need to focus a bit more. Saying "would you like a carrier bag" or "that's X pounds" for 8 hours a day with a fake smile on my face certainly draws time away from conlanging lol
Sorry to hear you have a job like that. [:(]
It definitely sucks, and it's really not what I thought, 5 years ago, I'd be doing. Graduating from university came with a lot of hopes and dreams that I've more or less given up on through sheer exhaustion. But that's a topic for a different thread, so I'd rather not go any further into it here.

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:I've been thinking about adding in features that aren't found in PIE, like direct-inverse marking.
Looking forward to seeing how this comes into play!

The system of noun reduplication is also cool. I especially like how ablaut and allophony keep reduplicated words (especially plural augmentatives) from sounding too repetitive!
Thanks.

One think that I did start to worry about was the occurrence of words like [tlə.tləh.mə'ma] and [hə.he.rəs'rus] which get quite clunky. But then I remembered that I want quite a big divergence to occur fairly early on in relation to how [ə] is handled, especially following onsets which, if codas, would become syllabic.

So, to take [tlə.tləh.mə'ma] as an example. In one branch this would become [tl.tlim'ma] (singular: [tl'tla:m]) while in another it might become something like [tla.tla:m'ma] (singular: [tla'tla:m]). Similarly [hə.he.rəs'rus] would become [i.he.ris'rus] (singular: [he:'rus]) and [he.ras'rus] (singular: [e:'rus]).

The clunkiness that I was worried about gets taken care of in the daughter languages, although I suppose I'm going to have to see if any kind of regularisation process takes place once I can come up with enough examples to find any patterns involved.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by Lao Kou » 21 May 2015 02:35

sangi39 wrote:they often fell apart after I became board with them.
And lo, the Chinese expression 呆板 was born. [xP]
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 21 May 2015 10:03

Lao Kou wrote:
sangi39 wrote:they often fell apart after I became board with them.
And lo, the Chinese expression 呆板 was born. [xP]
I may be missing something that makes this funny, but Wiktionary gives this as meaning "stiff, awkward, inflexible, mechanical", coming from a combination of two characters meaning "dull-minded, stupid, simple" and "board" respectively. After that, I don't get it [:P]
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by Lao Kou » 21 May 2015 10:23

sangi39 wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
sangi39 wrote:they often fell apart after I became board with them.
And lo, the Chinese expression 呆板 was born. [xP]
I may be missing something that makes this funny, but Wiktionary gives this as meaning "stiff, awkward, inflexible, mechanical", coming from a combination of two characters meaning "dull-minded, stupid, simple" and "board" respectively. After that, I don't get it [:P]
"bored" unintentionally misspelled as "board"
→ "board" = 板 (board)
→ "呆板" = boring, dull, monotonous
→ boring → bored
→ back full circle
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 21 May 2015 10:38

Lao Kou wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
sangi39 wrote:they often fell apart after I became board with them.
And lo, the Chinese expression 呆板 was born. [xP]
I may be missing something that makes this funny, but Wiktionary gives this as meaning "stiff, awkward, inflexible, mechanical", coming from a combination of two characters meaning "dull-minded, stupid, simple" and "board" respectively. After that, I don't get it [:P]
"bored" unintentionally misspelled as "board"
→ "board" = 板 (board)
→ "呆板" = boring, dull, monotonous
→ boring → bored
→ back full circle
Lao Kou free-forming, don't dig too deep. [:$]
Ah, yeah, I didn't even notice I'd spelt it wrong :P Still, that does work out fairly well [:)]
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 22 May 2015 18:05

Nominal Morphology: Case

Okay, so taking a stab at nominal morphology again, let's talk about case.

Proto-Skawlas nouns decline for up to 4 cases, the nominative, accusative, prepositional and the genitive, with human nouns declining for the genitive.


The Nominative

The nominative is universally unmarked.

The nominative is used to mark the subject of intransitive verbs, and the agent of transitive verbs.


The Accusative

The accusative is marked by means of -/al/ (underlyingly unstressed).

The accusative is used to mark the direct object of transitive verbs.


The Prepositional Case

The prepositional is marked by means of -/ís/ (underlyingly stressed).

The prepositional is the form taken by a noun in the majority of other circumstances, the recipient of ditransitive verbs, when followed by a preposition and is used when forming genitive constructions with non-human nouns.


The Dative-Genitive

The genitive is marked by means of -/át/ (underlyingly stressed).

It is used with human nouns to mark possession but is also used to mark a human recipient of a ditransitive verb.

I'll throw some examples together in a bit and see how that affects ablaut.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 22 May 2015 18:24

3 quick examples:

Code: Select all

/'skar/     > ['skar]   : /skar-'ar/     > ['skrar]
/'skar-al/  > ['ska.rḷ] : /skar-'ar-al   > ['skra.rḷ]
/'skar-'is/ > ['skris]  : /skar-'ar-'is/ > [skərris]

/'mik/     > ['mik]   : /mik-'ik/     > [mə'kik]
/'mik-al/  > ['mi.kḷ] : /mik-'ik-al/  > [mə'kikḷ]
/'mik-'is/ > [mə'kis] : /mik-'ik-'is/ > [mek'kis]
/'mik-'at/ > [mə'kat] : /mik-'ik-'at/ > [mek'kat]

/si'pik/     > ['spik]   : /si.pik-'ik/     > [sep'kik]
/si'pik-al/  > ['spi.kḷ] : /si.pik-'ik-al/  > [sep'ki.kḷ]
/si'pik-'is/ > [sep'kis] : /si.pik-'ik-'is/ > [spek'kis]
So for, what seems to happen is that the nominative and accusative singular take one form, the nominative and accusative plural, as well as the genitive and prepositional singular take another and their plural counterparts take a third form. I wonder if this will hold through the rest of the examples we've had so far [:)]
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by shimobaatar » 22 May 2015 21:17

sangi39 wrote:The prepositional is the form taken by a noun in the majority of other circumstances, the recipient of ditransitive verbs, when followed by a preposition and is used when forming genitive constructions with non-human nouns.
Could any prepositions ever be dropped because they could be inferred from the context of the noun in the prepositional case (and maybe also the verb)?
sangi39 wrote:So for, what seems to happen is that the nominative and accusative singular take one form, the nominative and accusative plural, as well as the genitive and prepositional singular take another and their plural counterparts take a third form. I wonder if this will hold through the rest of the examples we've had so far [:)]
What do you mean by this, exactly? I like the way the examples have turned out, but I think I might be missing something. All the forms look distinct to me.

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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 22 May 2015 21:47

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:The prepositional is the form taken by a noun in the majority of other circumstances, the recipient of ditransitive verbs, when followed by a preposition and is used when forming genitive constructions with non-human nouns.
Could any prepositions ever be dropped because they could be inferred from the context of the noun in the prepositional case (and maybe also the verb)?
I'm definitely thinking of looking into verb-framing to see if this might be possible. If I can drop prepositions where it wouldn't be ambiguous, that would be awesome [:)]
shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:So for, what seems to happen is that the nominative and accusative singular take one form, the nominative and accusative plural, as well as the genitive and prepositional singular take another and their plural counterparts take a third form. I wonder if this will hold through the rest of the examples we've had so far [:)]
What do you mean by this, exactly? I like the way the examples have turned out, but I think I might be missing something. All the forms look distinct to me.
Ah, I meant the forms of the roots, minus the suffixes (including the reduplicated plural suffix) [:)]
Last edited by sangi39 on 22 May 2015 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 22 May 2015 22:03

Just to give out another three examples:

Code: Select all

/'ma/     > ['ma]  : /ma-'ma/     > [mə'ma]
/'ma-al/  > ['mal] : /ma-'ma-al/  > [mə'mal]
/'ma-'is/ > ['mis] : /ma-'ma-'is/ > [mə'mis]
/'ma-'at/ > ['mat] : /ma-'ma-'at/ > [mə'mat]

/pi'li/     > ['pli]   : /pili-'li/     > [pel'li]
/pi'li-al/  > ['plil]  : /pili-'li-al/  > [pel'lil]
/pi'li-'is/ > [pe'lis] : /pili-'li-'is/ > ['ple'lis]

/'rap.ʈʰi/     > ['rap.ʈʰə]  : /rap.ʈʰi'ʈʰi/     > [rəp.ʈʰə'ʈʰi]
/'rap.ʈʰi-al/  > ['rap.ʈʰəl] : /rap.ʈʰi'ʈʰi-al/  > [rəp.ʈʰə'ʈʰil]
/'rap.ʈʰi-'is/ > ['rəp'ʈʰis] : /rap.ʈʰi'ʈʰi-'is/ > [rəp.ʈʰe'ʈʰ'is]
The three-forms thing seems to hold and there's definitely an emerging pattern, and even shifting stress leftward in stems doesn't seem to have a huge impact on what happens in the non-singular non-nom/acc forms which all seem to follow the same pattern.

So far I've only dealt with monosyllabic and bisyllabic roots, though, so the next step is to look at the augmentative forms which end up longer in the plural.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 22 May 2015 22:23

And taken from the augmentative examples above:

Code: Select all

ju.ju'ku     > [joj'ku]    : ju.ju.ku-'ku     > [jə.jok'ku] 
ju.ju'ku-al  > [joj'kul]   : ju.ju.ku-'ku-al  > [jə.jok'kal] 
ju.ju'ku-'is > [jə.jo'kis] : ju.ju.ku-'ku-'is > [joj.ko'kis] 

tla'tlah.ma     > [tlə'tlah.mə]  : tla.tlah.ma-'ma     > [tlə.tləh.mə'ma] 
tla'tlah.ma-al  > [tlə'tlah.məl] : tla.tlah.ma-'ma-al  > [tlə.tləh.mə'mal] 
tla'tlah.ma-'is > [tlə'tləh'mis] : tla.tlah.ma-'ma-'is > [tlə.tləh.mə'mis] 

hi.hi'rus     > [heh'rus]      : hi.hi.rus-'rus     > [hə.he.rəs'rus] 
hi.hi'rus-al  > [heh'rusl]     : hi.hi.rus-'rus-al  > [hə.he.rəs'rusl] 
hi.hi'rus-'is > [hə.he.rə'sis] : hi.hi.rus-'rus-'is > [heh.ros.rə'sis] 
And it looks, again, like the three-form pattern holds, and it looks like there's a definite pattern in the ablaut grades as well.

This actually looks like it could be a lot more interesting in the two descendant branches as well.
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Re: Proto-Skawlas

Post by sangi39 » 23 May 2015 11:13

The general pattern, without taking into account stress movement in nominative-accusative forms, is:

Code: Select all

C1-F   : C1-0-C1-F
C1-F-l : C1-0-C1-F-l
C1-is  : C1-R-C1-is
C1-at  : C1-R-C1-at

C1-F-C2     : C1-0-C2-F-C2
C1-F-C2-0-l : C1-0-C2-F-C2-0-l
C1-0-C2-is  : C1-R-C2-0-C2-is
C1-0-C2-at  : C1-R-C2-0-C2-at

C1-0-C2-F   : C1-R-C2-0-C2-F
C1-0-C2-F-l : C1-R-C2-0-C2-F-l
C1-R-C2-is  : C1-0-C2-R-C2-is
C1-R-C2-at  : C1-0-C2-R-C2-at

C1-0-C2-F-C3     : C1-R-C2-0-C3-F-C3
C1-0-C2-F-C3-0-l : C1-R-C2-0-C3-F-C3-0-l
C1-R-C2-0-C3-is  : C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C3-is
C1-R-C2-0-C3-at  : C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C3-at

C1-R-C2-0-C3-F   : C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C3-F
C1-R-C2-0-C3-F-l : C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C3-F-l
C1-0-C2-R-C3-is  : C1-R-C2-0-C3-R-C3-is
C1-0-C2-R-C3-at  : C1-R-C2-0-C3-R-C3-at

C1-R-C2-0-C3-F-C4     : C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C4-F-C4
C1-R-C2-0-C3-F-C4-0-l : C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C4-F-C4-0-l
C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C4-is  : C1-R-C2-0-C3-R-C4-0-C4-is
C1-0-C2-R-C3-0-C4-at  : C1-R-C2-0-C3-R-C4-0-C4-at
F = stressed full grade
R = reduced grade (secondary stress)
0 = either null or schwa, in line with phonotactics.

Nouns with a root morpheme that drags stress leftward have a distinct singular nominative-accusative form:

C1-F-C2-0-(l)
C1-F-C2-0-C3-(l)
C1-0-C2-F-C3-0-(l)
C1-0-C2-F-C3-0-C4-(l)

... but all other forms are identical to nouns which have root morphemes which do not drag stress leftward.
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