Tloko / Omya redux

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masako
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Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 02 Jun 2015 22:19

So, I have decided to sort of start anew with Omya (Kala glyphs). The syllabary will definitely stay, as it is probably as good as it can be, but the logograms were made hastily, and I'm sorta not sure how I wish to proceed.

Image

What you see here are some potential logograms made by editing syllabograms and then rotating them. Given that there are over 200 syllabograms, there are thousands and thousands of possible logographic glyphs.

Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:

1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning

2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc

3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)

4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived

Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by protondonor » 02 Jun 2015 23:58

I like the look of these glyphs. My own two cents is I would choose option 3 or 4, mostly because they seem the most diachronically plausible (although 4 might be putting the cart before the horse; I'm not aware of any languages where a logographic system derived from a syllabary that way).
Kaimen Keling: Uralic goes Germanic
Kolyma Ainu: Ainu language spoken in mainland Siberia
Wetokwa: a priori, spoken in a Death Valley-like environment, former speedlang
Mañi: a Ngerupic language inspired by Oto-Manguean, Cariban, and Mataco-Guaicuruan

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by kanejam » 03 Jun 2015 04:00

I think most logographic syllabaries come from pictographic systems, so it would likely be mostly 3, although you would expect so arbitraryness and probably also some relation to the syllabary. I can imagine if glyph X that was used eg for 'pala' came to be used for just 'pa', the glyph might be doubled XX to mean 'pala'. As your system is somewhat restricted, I wouldn't expect too many glyphs as they would start being very easily confused. I would expect lots of logographic compounding, not necessarily at all related to the individual phonetic or even semantic elements.

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masako
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 03 Jun 2015 10:30

kanejam wrote:I think most logographic syllabaries come from pictographic systems, so it would likely be mostly 3, although you would expect so arbitraryness and probably also some relation to the syllabary.
Yes, yes...
kanejam wrote:I can imagine if glyph X that was used eg for 'pala' came to be used for just 'pa', the glyph might be doubled XX to mean 'pala'. As your system is somewhat restricted, I wouldn't expect too many glyphs as they would start being very easily confused.
Interesting.
kanejam wrote:I would expect lots of logographic compounding, not necessarily at all related to the individual phonetic or even semantic elements.
Alrighty, then.

All of what you said is completely reasonable and well informed. A scholarly answer that I appreciate, very much.

protondonor wrote:My own two cents is I would choose option 3 or 4
Option 3 seems good. It's just gonna take for-bleeding-ever.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by kanejam » 03 Jun 2015 11:24

masako wrote:All of what you said is completely reasonable and well informed. A scholarly answer that I appreciate, very much.
De nada! It wasn't particularly scholarly, it's more just what happens in real world syllabaries. Clawgrip would be the one to go to for a scholarly answer!

Having said what I said above, I'll add that you could just base all your logograms on Hanzi etc as they would be warped beyond recognition. It'll still be interesting and you can add in irregularities later on, but it would save you a lot of work.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 23 Dec 2015 16:39

2016 will be the year of the glyph for Kala.

My goal is to have 500 logograms by the end of 2016. 600 if circumstances permit.

Stay tuned.

/necro

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 23 Dec 2015 17:50

masako wrote:Stay tuned.
Indeed I shall!
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 31 Dec 2015 16:34

As of right now, there are 175-ish defined glyphs, listed here:

http://i.imgur.com/qmeswXQ.png | http://i.imgur.com/iQOIajo.png | and http://i.imgur.com/GjwbvA7.png

I've devised a "radical" scheme that I like, so, I will have two ways of displaying the glyphs, 1st listed in "pataka" (alphabetical) order, then by glyph radicals.

Subject to change, these are the radicals, along with variations:

Image

Basically, if the glyph is dominated (i.e. takes up the majority of the nine points) by a radical listed, it belongs to that radical.

Updates to follow.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 31 Dec 2015 17:04

(As a slight aside, you had a script you used as a hand-written version of these glyphs, didn't you? I can't recall what you called it though. But, I'd love to see some more of that along with your developments of the Tloko characters... That is if it's still a thing.)
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 31 Dec 2015 17:35

Yes, the handwritten version is still alive, though, I only use it to write syllables...or, to put it another way, when using the handwritten version, glyphs are not used.

Here are the "ka" syllables:

Image

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masako
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 23 Jul 2017 05:00

The basic principles for writing Omyatloko are simple, namely that writing characters should be economical, with the fewest hand movements to write the most strokes possible. This promotes writing speed, accuracy, and readability. This idea is particularly important since as learners progress, characters often get more complex. Since stroke order also aids learning and memorization.

General Guidelines:

Write from top to bottom, and left to right.
Horizontal before vertical.
Outside before center (unless otherwise indicated).
Enclosures before exteriors.
Dots and minor strokes last.


A few examples:

Because each glyph uses all nine points in a 3x3 grid, each point is named to define and explain stroke order
Image

Image
In these examples you can see that each point is not pronounced or listed as it may not be a juncture or stopping point for the brush. However, each point is covered by the brushstroke. A colon ":" marks a raise of the pen/brush.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by kiwikami » 23 Jul 2017 05:21

It's great to see this again, masako; this is a really beautiful system!
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Frislander » 23 Jul 2017 12:11

I do like the look of this, but I can't escape the feeling that it looks and seems to work a lot like the 9now apparently inactive) Pseudoglyphs (see also Omniglot).
Edit: EDIT: actually I've checked the page and it seems you're already aware of its existance, sorry.

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masako
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 23 Jul 2017 13:10

kiwikami wrote:It's great to see this again, masako; this is a really beautiful system!
I'm glad you enjoy it. I have fallen deep under its spell.
Frislander wrote:I do like the look of this
Good. Thank you.

Now, the 3x3 grid is a common starting point for many "glyph-type" conscripts, but what is important here is to know that the genesis of this script actually comes from Ngala, created and published a few years before Andrew had begun to publish info on Pseudoglyphs. However, I will say that his site has continued to spur me on. His genius is magnificent.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by lsd » 23 Jul 2017 13:34

Still impressive ...
Especially the outline style...
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces...
But it's an outside opinion of the project that comes more from my way of working logograms...
masako wrote:Now, the 3x3 grid is a common starting point for many "glyph-type" conscripts, but what is important here is to know that the genesis of this script actually comes from Ngala
It seems to use a 4x4 grid...
(for myself I use a 5x5)...
The change for 3x3 and the outline style make it very near pseudoglyph style...
a Maya style without the pictography madness...

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masako
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 26 Jul 2017 18:58

lsd wrote:The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces
That's only a consequence of the handwritten version.
lsd wrote:a Maya style without the pictography madness
A friend referred to them as "abstract ideographs complimented by a syllabary."

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by clawgrip » 28 Jul 2017 14:39

I see no problem with glyphs being in several pieces. cf. j, Ξ, Ы, હ, ஊ, ప, ฐ, 늜, 띢, い, ふ, シ, 信, 桑, 彩, 洲. Seems fine to me.

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by lsd » 28 Jul 2017 16:37

What disturbs me is that the regular square pattern seems to be artificially filled with piece additions ... such as a calligraphic regularity imposed by a standardized treatment ...
But this is not a problem in itself ... giving an appearance of Peruvian wall rather than Mayan glyph...
Image

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masako
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako » 30 Jul 2017 16:38

clawgrip wrote:I see no problem with glyphs being in several pieces. cf. j, Ξ, Ы, હ, ஊ, ప, ฐ, 늜, 띢, い, ふ, シ, 信, 桑, 彩, 洲. Seems fine to me.
Thank you. With your breadth of knowledge I am assured that I've not strayed too far from 'natural'.
lsd wrote:giving an appearance of Peruvian wall rather than Mayan glyph...
yeah, but, at a distance, or even an angle, several of these look much more like a wall to me:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/de ... Panels.jpg

http://www.shieldsaroundtheworld.com/origs/P0000611.jpg

https://elaineelliott.files.wordpress.c ... es-104.jpg

https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display ... 850966.jpg

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Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Lambuzhao » 30 Jul 2017 16:47

masako wrote: Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:

1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning

2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc

3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)

4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived

Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?
I would do what you did with Kala: originality, some subjectivity, and some easter eggs (e.g. yama).
I mean, 'cept for the easter eggs, don't Chinese and Egyptian sort of do this anyway.

For example, your glyph for flower is simple and elegant, and clearly shows sepals, petals and the pistil - very clear!

That has to be one of the most original, economical, and quite self-evidentmost glyphs I have ever seen.
[+1]

Also, that, or glyphs like it, could be a great for concepts like 'open', 'unfold' , and who knows what else.

It is for you to only unfold them.
[;)]

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