Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

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Linguifex
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Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 05 Jun 2015 22:33

Protolanguage phonology

/m n ŋ/
/p pʰ pʼ b bʱ t tʰ tʼ d dʱ k kʰ kʼ g gʱ q qʰ qʼ ɢ ɢʱ/
/ts tsʰ tsʼ dz dzʱ/
/s z/
/ɾ/

/u o a e i/ + length

Syllable structure

(S)(C)(C)(C)V(C), where S is a stop and C is any consonant, with the exception of clusters of stops/stop plus affricate at the same POA and dorsal-obstruent clusters

The daughter languages will probably end up using different strategies to iron out clusters such as mixed-voice clusters.

Some morphology

*-rqʼu agent trigger
*-no patient trigger

*kʰtsʰoː "to roll", "roll (imperative)" > *kʰtsʰoːrqʼu, *kʰtsʰoːno

The patient trigger can also be used for a few other significations with the use of other suffixes:

*-bʱ locative
*-kʼ benefactive
*-g reflexive
*-ɢʱ reciprocal

Numbers one through ten, for Janko (incidentally, *gorentse "to count"):

1. *tskʰte
2. *kʰtso
3. *qoː
4. *tsbidʱ
5. *btsʰuq
6. *mdzoː
7. *kʼme
8. *bnoː
9. *neːtʼ
10. *dzaŋko
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Jun 2015 23:22

I love the aesthetic, and it's always interesting to see this kind of alignment. Any ideas as of yet for how one would say something like "to count to ten", or "I'm counting to ten"?

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Dezinaa » 06 Jun 2015 04:38

I really like the phonology. Interesting consonant clusters. I'm looking forward to seeing more grammar and sound changes.
Linguifex wrote:10. *dzaŋko
I see what you did there. [:P]

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by AndrewTheConlanger » 06 Jun 2015 14:07

Looks pretty great! I'm sure I could guess, but how would you romanize some of those, like /ɢ/?

And this might just be a stab in the dark, but, based on your Happy Wheels picture, does that mean you're also https://www.man-in-space.tumblr.com, 'cause I've followed him since day one!?

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 08 Jun 2015 07:21

shimobaatar wrote:I love the aesthetic, and it's always interesting to see this kind of alignment. Any ideas as of yet for how one would say something like "to count to ten", or "I'm counting to ten"?
Maybe using the locative: gorentsenobʱ dzaŋko-IND
Dezinaa wrote:I really like the phonology. Interesting consonant clusters. I'm looking forward to seeing more grammar and sound changes.
I hope to do this soon.
Dezinaa wrote:
Linguifex wrote:10. *dzaŋko
I see what you did there. [:P]
[:)] Did you also see what I did with the verb for "to count"?
AndrewTheConlanger wrote:Looks pretty great! I'm sure I could guess, but how would you romanize some of those, like /ɢ/?
I'm not sure. For the protolang I'd probably just leave it like it is.
AndrewTheConlanger wrote:And this might just be a stab in the dark, but, based on your Happy Wheels picture, does that mean you're also https://www.man-in-space.tumblr.com, 'cause I've followed him since day one!?
Change https to http and you've got me! Who are you on Tumblr?

I'm considering a somewhat arbitrary division of noun endings.

Direct singular *-Ø
Indirect singular *-t
Direct plural *-bʱ
Indirect plural *-n

Direct singular *-Ø
Indirect singular *-oːs
Direct plural *-rtse
Indirect plural *-go

Direct singular *-Ø
Indirect singular *-aːs
Direct plural *-rtsa
Indirect plural *-ren

Direct singular *-Ø
Indirect singular *-tsʼu
Direct plural *-ne
Indirect plural *-ni

Direct singular *-a
Indirect singular *-e
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-tsʰet

Direct singular *-dʱo
Indirect singular *-dzʱo
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-dzʱe

Direct singular *-n
Indirect singular *-m
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-s

Direct singular *-on
Indirect singular *-oːm
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-u
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 08 Jun 2015 07:52

Possibly the start of a subfamily:

V[- long]r > Vː / _{C,#}
u o > ɯ ɤ / _C[+dorsal]{C,#}
C[+dorsal] > Ø / _C
q > Ø / _# (series)
S > ʔ / _#
s t(s) > ʃ tʃ / _{u,i} (series)
{k,q} (series) > p / _u
o(ː) e(ː) > u(ː) i(ː)
In clusters of 3+ consonants, the first drops out
If multiple ejectives are in a word, only the last one stays ejective
Regressive voicing assimilation of stops/affricates
u(ː) ɯ(ː) i(ː) > o(ː) ɤ(ː) e(ː) / _#
ts dz > t d / _#

tpʰe "rope" > tpʰe
ŋtʰoːq "claw, nail" > ŋtʰɤː
pubʱtqʼu "hill, ridge" > putpʼo
tʰuːq "to cast metal" > tʰɤː
kʰtso "beer, mead" > kʰtʃo
ndʱo "tea" > ndʱo
rtsʼu "to hail (weather)" > rtʃʼo
trudz "to blizzard" > trud
tsʼutsʼ "blue, gray" > tʃutsʼ
kʰer "sometimes, occasionally" > kʰeː
qugutʰ "valley, ravine" > pubuʔ
ŋmeːt "to change the shape of something" > ŋmiːʔ
kʼuːg "neck" > kʼɯːʔ
nenotʰ "light (color)" > ninuʔ
tsʰeːb "to figure something out" > tsʰiːʔ
tqʼtʰeː "to win (war)" > qʼtʰeː
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Omzinesý » 08 Jun 2015 22:09

Very interesting! Could I also use this as a proto-lang. If you make the proto-lang yourself, you start designing it for the doughter-lang and that's not good at all.


What is Tibetan in this lang? I don't know the family too well.

What is the indirect case? I know the direct marks both subject and object but what's the indirect?

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by shimobaatar » 08 Jun 2015 22:41

Linguifex wrote:q > Ø / _# (series)
S > ʔ / _#
s t(s) > ʃ tʃ / _{u,i} (series)
I like the looks of the noun endings and sound changes so far. This is probably a stupid question, but what does "series" mean in this context?
Omzinesý wrote:What is the indirect case? I know the direct marks both subject and object but what's the indirect?
As far as I know, in languages like this with Austronesian/Austronesian-like morphosyntactic alignment systems, the direct case marks the agent when the verb is marked with an agent trigger, and the patient when the verb is marked with a patient trigger. The indirect case marks the agent when the verb is marked with a patient trigger, and the patient when the verb is marked with an agent trigger.

That's a rather general description, of course; Linguifex is really the only one who can explain the exact uses of those cases in their own language.

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by AndrewTheConlanger » 14 Jun 2015 23:21

Linguifex wrote:
AndrewTheConlanger wrote:And this might just be a stab in the dark, but, based on your Happy Wheels picture, does that mean you're also http://www.man-in-space.tumblr.com, 'cause I've followed him since day one!?
Change https to http and you've got me! Who are you on Tumblr?
Why, I'm the-dankabyss!

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 23 Jun 2015 20:48

Omzinesý wrote:Very interesting! Could I also use this as a proto-lang. If you make the proto-lang yourself, you start designing it for the doughter-lang and that's not good at all.
Would you be comfortable with having the daughterlang in my setting? If so, I'd be honored. Also, I plan on making more than one descendant language from this.
Omzinesý wrote:What is Tibetan in this lang? I don't know the family too well.
The phonotactics and the two aspirate series in the protolang.
Omzinesý wrote:What is the indirect case? I know the direct marks both subject and object but what's the indirect?
shimobaatar wrote:As far as I know, in languages like this with Austronesian/Austronesian-like morphosyntactic alignment systems, the direct case marks the agent when the verb is marked with an agent trigger, and the patient when the verb is marked with a patient trigger. The indirect case marks the agent when the verb is marked with a patient trigger, and the patient when the verb is marked with an agent trigger.

That's a rather general description, of course; Linguifex is really the only one who can explain the exact uses of those cases in their own language.
That's basically it, though I do plan on having some sort of extra things involving the patient and/or agent in the indirect with something else in the direct.
shimobaatar wrote:I like the looks of the noun endings and sound changes so far.
[:D]
shimobaatar wrote:This is probably a stupid question, but what does "series" mean in this context?
That's not a stupid question at all! It means that I used a shorthand in the sound changes and all the corresponding consonants change.
AndrewTheConlanger wrote:Why, I'm the-dankabyss!
Cool!

Thinking about doing a present/absent contrast in the third-person pronouns. If so, should I limit it to the third-person singular?
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Omzinesý » 23 Jun 2015 21:18

Linguifex wrote: Thinking about doing a present/absent contrast in the third-person pronouns. If so, should I limit it to the third-person singular?
Are derived from pronouns 'this' and 'that'? I think plurals would be quite natural as well.
Does this distinction appear in any nat-lang?

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Jun 2015 21:22

Linguifex wrote:It means that I used a shorthand in the sound changes and all the corresponding consonants change.
Ah, so "q > Ø / _# (series)", for example, would mean that all uvulars are dropped word-finally?
Linguifex wrote:Thinking about doing a present/absent contrast in the third-person pronouns. If so, should I limit it to the third-person singular?
I personally wouldn't limit it.

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by opipik » 23 Jun 2015 21:28

A gift:
Spoiler:
tr/ʈʂ/_
rts/ʈʂ/_
ʱ//_C
ʱ//_#
ʱ/r/_V
dr/ɖʐ/_
[ŋnm]/ⁿ/_C
ʼ/ʰ/_
ː/́/_
q//C_C
tt/t/_
b/́/_#
b//_C
tq/k/_
t//_T
kʰ/ʰ/_C
ʰts/tsʰ/_
ʰ//_#
ʰ//_C
ⁿ//_N
Z/S/_#
r/ʔ/_#
q/ʔ/_#
dz/ts/_#
ts/ʔ/_#
tst/tʰ/_
ⁿ/n/V_C
́́/́/_
tsb/pf/_
/ⁿ/_Z
ⁿⁿ/ⁿ/_
ɢ/ⁿg/_
Spoiler:
tpʰe
ŋtʰoːq
pubʱtqʼu
tʰuːq
tskʰte
kʰtso
qoː
tsbidʱ
btsʰuq
mdzoː
kʼme
bnoː
neːtʼ
dzaŋko
ndʱo
rtsʼu
trudz
tsʼutsʼ
kʰer
qugutʰ
ŋmeːt
kʼuːg
nenotʰ
tsʰeːb
tqʼtʰe
gorentsenobʱ dzaŋko
gorentse

thus yields:

pʰe
ⁿtʰóʔ
pukʰu
tʰúʔ
tʰe
tsʰo

pfit
tsʰuʔ
ⁿdzó
me

nét
ⁿdzanko
ⁿɖʐo
ʈʂʰu
ʈʂuʔ
tsʰuʔ
kʰeʔ
quⁿgut
mét
kʰúk
nenot
tsʰé
tʰe
ⁿgorentsenó ⁿdzanko
ⁿgorentse

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 14 Sep 2015 06:23

Omzinesý wrote:
Linguifex wrote: Thinking about doing a present/absent contrast in the third-person pronouns. If so, should I limit it to the third-person singular?
Are derived from pronouns 'this' and 'that'? I think plurals would be quite natural as well.
Does this distinction appear in any nat-lang?
Wari' has a three-way present/absent contrast (two categories of absence: "recently seen" and "gone", IIRC). It's where I got the idea from.
shimobataar wrote:Ah, so "q > Ø / _# (series)", for example, would mean that all uvulars are dropped word-finally?
Correct.
shimobaatar wrote:
Linguifex wrote:Thinking about doing a present/absent contrast in the third-person pronouns. If so, should I limit it to the third-person singular?
I personally wouldn't limit it.
OK.
opipik wrote:A gift
[:D] ! Thank you (sorry this is so belated)!
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 04 Apr 2017 04:19

This is either a really great idea or a really harebrained one. But it would not leave me, so here we go.

ɾ ~ l ~ ɬ
S → Ø / #SS_
S → Ø / S_S
Sʱ → Sʰ
ts dz → s z / #
ts dz → θ ð → t̪ d̪
SʰS → SʰSʰ / ! _S’
SSʰ → SʰSʰ / ! S’_
KS → [+ click]
ʘ ǀ ǁ → PF TS TL / _E
ŭ ŏ ă ĕ ĭ → ʊ ɔ ə ɛ ɪ / _%
uː oː eː iː → au̯ uː iː ai̯ / _C%
g → h / V_V
C’ → ʔ / _%
{o,e} → a / _N%
um am im → ou̯ au̯ i̯u
un uŋ → ʉ u̯o / _%
on oŋ → ɵ ɔ / _%
an aŋ → ə ɔ / _%
en eŋ → ə a / _%
in iŋ → i i̯e / _%
uː iː → u̯ɔ i̯ɛ
oː eː → oi̯ ei̯
a aː → æ ɑ
s → Ø / _T
t t̪ d d̪ → ʔ t l d
{g,ɢ} → Ø / _#

tskʰte → tsʰɛ
kʰtso → kǀʰɔ
qoː → qoi̯
tsbitʰ → zbiʔ
btsʰuq → pʰtʰuq
mdzoː → ndoi̯
k’me → k’mɛ
bnoː → bnoi̯
neːt’ → ni̯ɛʔ
dzaŋko → zəʔɔ

tpʰe → ʔpʰɛ
ŋtʰoːq → ŋ!ʰu̯ɔq
pubʱtq’u → pʊqʘ’ʊ
tʰuːq → ʔau̯q
kʰtso → kǀʰɔ
ndʱo → nʔɔ
rts’u → rt’ʊ
trudz → ʔrud
ts’uts’ → t’uʔ
kʰer → kʰer
qugutʰ → qʊhuʔ
ŋmeːt → ŋmi̯ɛʔ
k’uːg → k’au̯, k’au̯g-
nenotʰ → nɛnoʔ
tsʰeːb → si̯ɛb
tq’e → ts’ɛ

skrem → tɬau̯
pʰtskak’ → kǀæʔ
ŋpʰeːmo → pɸʰei̯mɔ
dgats → g!æt
skram → skǁau̯
gdzan → gǀə
p’keŋ → pɸ’æ
kpom → kʘau̯
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 05 Apr 2017 00:41

Two quick changes—final short vowels are lost; final long vowels become short. This pair of changes occurs before the stuff with nasal codas.

Pronouns

1SG *teŋkotɛʔ
1PL *kʰtsimtamtsʰi̯uʔau̯
2 *dgung!ʉ
3.M *ndimandɪm
3.F *tsesagsɛsə
3.3 *qt’aɢq!’æ
3.4 *dʱŋoːp’ŋ!ʰu̯ɔʔ
3.5 *gbeːrebβai̯r
3.6 *nikenɪk
3.7 *skponsʘɵ
3.8 *iŋdʱii̯etʰ
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 05 Apr 2017 03:51

Going to redo these noun endings.

Direct singular *-ko
Indirect singular *-ŋo
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-gu

Direct singular *-m
Indirect singular *-Ø
Direct plural *-bʱ
Indirect plural *-t

Direct singular *-eːs
Indirect singular *-oːs
Direct plural *-rtse
Indirect plural *-go

Direct singular *-daː
Indirect singular *-daːs
Direct plural *-rtsa
Indirect plural *-gan

Direct singular *-Ø
Indirect singular *-tʼu
Direct plural *-ne
Indirect plural *-ni

Direct singular *-a
Indirect singular *-e
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-qet

Direct singular *-n
Indirect singular *-m
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-s

Direct singular *-kon
Indirect singular *-kʰem
Direct plural *-Ø
Indirect plural *-kaː

And adding in a few new sound changes…

s → h
Coda /h/ → onset aspiration, deletes
Sʰ → F / _%
F → Ø / _%, yields falling tone
ʔ → Ø / _%, yields low (glottalized) tone
S → Ø / _%, yields low tone
CʰV́ → CV̋
CʰV̀(ˀ) → CV̄(ˀ)
r → s / _(C)%
ɵ ʉ → ø y

tet-ko → k!ɔ́
tet-ŋo → ŋ!ɔ́
tet-Ø → ʔèˀ (→ k!èˀ by analogy, unless this ends up being a really common word)
tet-gu → g!ʊ́

bdeː-ko → bdèˀi̯
bdeː-ŋo → bdɔ́
bdeː-Ø → bdéi̯
bdeː-gu → bde̋i̯

----

ktʰesi-m → k!ɛ̋hi̯ú
ktʰesi-Ø → k!ɛ̋
ktʰesi-bʱ → k!ɛ̋hî
ktʰesi-t → k!ɛ̋hì

ŋu-m → ŋóu̯
ŋu-Ø → ŋʊ́
ŋu-bʱ → ŋû
ŋu-t → ŋù

----

tatk-eːs → ʔə́tsi̯ɛ̋
tatk-oːs → ʔə́k!u̯ɔ̋
tatk-(u)rtse → ʔə́k!ùs
tatk-oː → ʔə́k!u̯ɔ̄

q-eːs → qi̯ɛ̋
q-oːs → qu̯ɔ̋
q-rtse → qstɛ́
qgo → ʔɔ́ (→ qɔ́ or → qu̯ɔ́ by analogy)

----

iŋ-daː → ɪ́ŋ!ǽ
iŋ-daːs → ɪ́ŋ!æ̋
iŋ-rtsa → i̯ès
iŋ-gan → ɪ́ʔə́ (→ ɪ́ŋ!ə́ by analogy?)

qti-daː → tsɪ́dǽ
qti-daːs → tsɪ́dæ̋
qti-rtsa → tsɪ̀s
qti-gan → tsɪ́hə́ (→ tsɪ́də́ by analogy?)

----

rum-Ø → si̯ú
rum-t’u → si̯ùˀ
rum-ne → si̯ún
rum-ni → si̯ún

ka-Ø → kə́
ka-t’u → kə̀ˀ
ka-ne → kə́ (→ kə́n by analogy)
ka-ni → kə́ (→ kə́n by analogy)

----

mon-a → mǿ
mon-e → mǿ
mon-Ø → mə́ (→ mý by analogy?)
mon-qet → mə́qèˀ (→ mʏ́qèˀ by analogy?)

tig-a → ʔɪ̋
tig-e → ʔɪ̋
tig-Ø → ʔí
tig-qet → ʔɪ́ʔèˀ

----

do-n → dǿ
do-m → dóu̯
do-Ø → dɔ́
do-s → dɔ̋

doː-n → du̯ɔ́n
doː-m → du̯ɔ́m
doː-Ø → dói̯
doː-s → du̯ɔ̋

----

kep-kon → kɛ́kʘǿ
kep-kʰem → kɛ́pɸa̋u̯
kep-Ø → kè
kep-kaː → kɛ́kʘǽ

ru-kon → sʊ́kǿ
ru-kʰem → sʊ́ka̋u̯
ru-Ø → sʊ́ (→ sù by analogy)
ru-kaː → sʊ́kǽ
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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by All4Ɇn » 05 Apr 2017 20:08

I'm really liking the look of everything so far. I might end up making my own descendent of it too if that's alright [:)]

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Re: Tibetan-and-Georgian-inspired language family

Post by Linguifex » 06 Apr 2017 00:56

All4Ɇn wrote:I'm really liking the look of everything so far.
Thank you!
All4Ɇn wrote:I might end up making my own descendent of it too if that's alright [:)]
Feel free. I love it when people make work based on my own.
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