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Re: Silvish

Posted: 05 Sep 2015 17:46
by Dormouse559
I stumbled upon some of the earliest sentences I wrote in Silvish, from 2012. So I retranslated them to see what had changed and what had stayed the same (old selvesco first, then new sivés). It used to be a lot more of an Iberian-Italic mash-up, but back then I had no idea where Silvish was supposed to be, and I also had no idea what I was doing [:P] . "Oíc" and "oi" (both "yes") are interesting because I started out with "oíc", based on "hoc", then later switched to "sì" (based on sic), and recently switched to hoc-based "oi".

Old
No participo als deportis, dicánt non.
[no paɾˈtit͡ʃipo͡als deˈpoɾtis diˈkant ˈnon]

New
Gzo nê participi allis spórtis, d'ô non.
[ˈdʑɔ nə patɪˈtɕeˈpe̯‿aːllɪ ˈspoɾtɪ ˈdoː ˈnõː]

I don't participate in sports, so no.


Old
Ela persona sevént mi hat trescorso uni soziorno in une mançón orie.
[ˈela peˈɾsona seˈvent mi atːɾesˈkoɾso ˈuni soˈzjoɾno in ˈune manˈt͡ʃon ˈoɾje]

New
La pessona chi me siév á songzornad an mesóni uói.
[la pəˈsɔːna kɪ mə ˈse̯aː ˈɛ sõʑɔˈnaːɾ‿õ məˈzoːnɪ ˈo̯ɑːe̯]

The person after me has stayed in a ritzy hotel.


Old
Si io ti respondeva ab une frazi corte, no parró estraér mie conlimue, dicánt ti volo a donár uni responso longo, volént dicér, supono, va oíc, no ti volo a respondre ab une frazi corte. Creí vinci paralis in escriviént celci!
[ˈsiːo ti responˈdevaːb ˈune ˈfɾazi ˈkoɾte no paˌro͡estɾaˈeɾ mje konˈlimwe diˈkantːi ˈvolo͡a doˈnaɾ ˈuni resˈponso ˈloŋgo voˈlent diˈt͡ʃeɾ suˈpono va͡oˈik no ti ˈvolo͡a resˈpondɾe͡ab ˈune ˈfɾazi ˈkoɾte kɾeˈi ˈvintʃi paˈɾalis in escɾiˈvjent ˈt͡ʃelt͡ʃi]

New
Sì gzo te ripondevi con ne córt frás, gzo nê podrè demaressê le mi conlénv, e por quelli gzo te beglarò ne long ripons, volént dî, gzo supondi, ca oi, gzo nê te ripondrò con ne córt frás. Gzo ò cread chingi paráblis en crivént quelli !
[se ˈdʑɔ tə rɪpõˈdɛːvɪ kõː nə kʊ ˈfɾɛ ˈdʑɔ nə pɔˈdɾɛ dəmaɾəˈsɛː lə ˈme kõˈlẽː ɛ pɔ ˈko̯ɛːllɪ ˈdʑɔ tə bəɪ̯aˈɾɔ nə ˈlõː rɪˈpõ vɔˈlẽ ˈdeː ˈdʑɔ sʊˈpõːdɪ ka ˈo̯ɛ ˈdʑɔ nə tə rɪpõˈdɾɔ kõ nə kʊ ˈfɾɛ | dʑɔ ˈɔ kɾəˈaː ˈkẽːʑɪ paˈɾɛːblɪ ã kɾɪˈvẽ ˈko̯ɛːllɪ]

If I responded to you with a short sentence, I wouldn’t be able to develop my conlang, so I will give you a long response, meaning, I suppose, that yes, I won’t respond to you with a short sentence. I created fifteen words writing this!

Re: Silvish

Posted: 06 Sep 2015 02:38
by Dormouse559
I've changed the pronunciation of <gl>. Word-medially after a stressed syllable, it represents /e̯l/. In other positions, it represents /e̯/. For example:

soliglis /sɔˈleːe̯.le/
soligl /sɔˈleː/
ensoliglad /ã.sɔ.leˈaː/

EDIT: And new allophony rules:
e̯ > ɪ̯, e_ or _e
o̯ > ʊ̯, o_ or _o

Re: Silvish

Posted: 06 Sep 2015 22:26
by Dormouse559
I've been doing a little conculturing, and I've got a concept for the Silvish flag. It's drawn from the coat-of-arms of the princes of Silvia, which combines their original coat-of-arms (left), with the coat-of-arms of the Duchy of Savoy, which the Silvish nobility were vassals to until the 19th century. The official blazon is: Argent, a cross gules between four cinquefoils or, dimidiated with gules, a cross argent.

What do you all think? Do you like it? And separately, is it convincing?

Image

Re: Silvish

Posted: 06 Sep 2015 22:45
by Egerius
But... the heraldic rules say that metal (gold) on metal (silver) doesn't go (unless the background is white, but then again, white was used for silver in the Middle Ages when no silver was available).

Re: Silvish

Posted: 06 Sep 2015 22:59
by Dormouse559
Oh, foo. Didn't know about that. Back to the drawing board, then.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 06 Sep 2015 23:17
by shimobaatar
Dormouse559 wrote:I stumbled upon some of the earliest sentences I wrote in Silvish, from 2012. So I retranslated them to see what had changed and what had stayed the same (old selvesco first, then new sivés). It used to be a lot more of an Iberian-Italic mash-up, but back then I had no idea where Silvish was supposed to be, and I also had no idea what I was doing [:P] . "Oíc" and "oi" (both "yes") are interesting because I started out with "oíc", based on "hoc", then later switched to "sì" (based on sic), and recently switched to hoc-based "oi".
Spoiler:
Old
No participo als deportis, dicánt non.
[no paɾˈtit͡ʃipo͡als deˈpoɾtis diˈkant ˈnon]

New
Gzo nê participi allis spórtis, d'ô non.
[ˈdʑɔ nə patɪˈtɕeˈpe̯‿aːllɪ ˈspoɾtɪ ˈdoː ˈnõː]

I don't participate in sports, so no.


Old
Ela persona sevént mi hat trescorso uni soziorno in une mançón orie.
[ˈela peˈɾsona seˈvent mi atːɾesˈkoɾso ˈuni soˈzjoɾno in ˈune manˈt͡ʃon ˈoɾje]

New
La pessona chi me siév á songzornad an mesóni uói.
[la pəˈsɔːna kɪ mə ˈse̯aː ˈɛ sõʑɔˈnaːɾ‿õ məˈzoːnɪ ˈo̯ɑːe̯]

The person after me has stayed in a ritzy hotel.


Old
Si io ti respondeva ab une frazi corte, no parró estraér mie conlimue, dicánt ti volo a donár uni responso longo, volént dicér, supono, va oíc, no ti volo a respondre ab une frazi corte. Creí vinci paralis in escriviént celci!
[ˈsiːo ti responˈdevaːb ˈune ˈfɾazi ˈkoɾte no paˌro͡estɾaˈeɾ mje konˈlimwe diˈkantːi ˈvolo͡a doˈnaɾ ˈuni resˈponso ˈloŋgo voˈlent diˈt͡ʃeɾ suˈpono va͡oˈik no ti ˈvolo͡a resˈpondɾe͡ab ˈune ˈfɾazi ˈkoɾte kɾeˈi ˈvintʃi paˈɾalis in escɾiˈvjent ˈt͡ʃelt͡ʃi]

New
Sì gzo te ripondevi con ne córt frás, gzo nê podrè demaressê le mi conlénv, e por quelli gzo te beglarò ne long ripons, volént dî, gzo supondi, ca oi, gzo nê te ripondrò con ne córt frás. Gzo ò cread chingi paráblis en crivént quelli !
[se ˈdʑɔ tə rɪpõˈdɛːvɪ kõː nə kʊ ˈfɾɛ ˈdʑɔ nə pɔˈdɾɛ dəmaɾəˈsɛː lə ˈme kõˈlẽː ɛ pɔ ˈko̯ɛːllɪ ˈdʑɔ tə bəɪ̯aˈɾɔ nə ˈlõː rɪˈpõ vɔˈlẽ ˈdeː ˈdʑɔ sʊˈpõːdɪ ka ˈo̯ɛ ˈdʑɔ nə tə rɪpõˈdɾɔ kõ nə kʊ ˈfɾɛ | dʑɔ ˈɔ kɾəˈaː ˈkẽːʑɪ paˈɾɛːblɪ ã kɾɪˈvẽ ˈko̯ɛːllɪ]

If I responded to you with a short sentence, I wouldn’t be able to develop my conlang, so I will give you a long response, meaning, I suppose, that yes, I won’t respond to you with a short sentence. I created fifteen words writing this!
Wow, it's amazing how much has changed in only a few years! I personally think the changes that the word for "yes" has undergone are especially interesting.

And that last sentence is hilarious. [xD]
Dormouse559 wrote:I've changed the pronunciation of <gl>. Word-medially after a stressed syllable, it represents /e̯l/. In other positions, it represents /e̯/. For example:

soliglis /sɔˈleːe̯.le/
soligl /sɔˈleː/
ensoliglad /ã.sɔ.leˈaː/

EDIT: And new allophony rules:
e̯ > ɪ̯, e_ or _e
o̯ > ʊ̯, o_ or _o
If it's something you've thought about, how different, for lack of a better word, do you suppose the Silvish semivowels would sound to foreigners more used to /j/ and /w/?
Dormouse559 wrote:I've been doing a little conculturing, and I've got a concept for the Silvish flag. It's drawn from the coat-of-arms of the princes of Silvia, which combines their original coat-of-arms (left), with the coat-of-arms of the Duchy of Savoy, which the Silvish nobility were vassals to until the 19th century. The official blazon is: Argent, a cross gules between four cinquefoils or, dimidiated with gules, a cross argent.

What do you all think? Do you like it? And separately, is it convincing?
Spoiler:
Image
Well, I know very little about flags and heraldry and all that, but I think it looks aesthetically pleasing, and I personally find it convincing.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 06 Sep 2015 23:50
by Dormouse559
Okay, I changed the cinquefoils to azure. I did like the look of the or, but there was no real justification for breaking the rule.

Image


shimobaatar wrote:Wow, it's amazing how much has changed in only a few years! I personally think the changes that the word for "yes" has undergone are especially interesting.

And that last sentence is hilarious. [xD]
On "oíc", I'd completely forgotten that I'd ever used anything other than "sì", so that was the most unexpected part for me.

On the last sentence, yeah, I was reading that going, "What was I thinking?" [xP]
shimobaatar wrote:If it's something you've thought about, how different, for lack of a better word, do you suppose the Silvish semivowels would sound to foreigners more used to /j/ and /w/?
It's a very subtle difference. They're more open, so they sound like extremely short versions of [e] and [o] (or [ɪ] [ʊ]). The main reason I transcribe them phonemically as /e̯ o̯/ rather than simply /j w/ is that they pattern with /e o/.
shimobaatar wrote:Well, I know very little about flags and heraldry and all that, but I think it looks aesthetically pleasing, and I personally find it convincing.
Great to hear. [:)] This is the first time I've set out to make a flag and gotten something I liked.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 07 Sep 2015 03:05
by clawgrip
The flag looks nice. I also didn't know that colour rule.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 07 Sep 2015 03:06
by shimobaatar
Dormouse559 wrote:Okay, I changed the cinquefoils to azure. I did like the look of the or, but there was no real justification for breaking the rule.
Spoiler:
Image
For what it's worth, I think this looks just as good as the previous version!

Re: Silvish

Posted: 08 Sep 2015 08:39
by Thrice Xandvii
Assuming the left-hand edge is the hoist, it seems a little backward to me for some reason, though I'm not sure why.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 08 Sep 2015 08:41
by Thrice Xandvii
clawgrip wrote:The flag looks nice. I also didn't know that colour rule.
It's more a rule that applies to heraldry than flags, the whole "no metal on metal" thing. I'm sure there are flags that violate it, but I'm blanking on examples.
Edit: The Royalist flag of France during the Revolution featured 3 gold fleur-de-lys on a white field:
Image

Re: Silvish

Posted: 08 Sep 2015 09:26
by Dormouse559
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Assuming the left-hand edge is the hoist, it seems a little backward to me for some reason, though I'm not sure why.
Your assumption is correct. My thought is that the link to Savoy was established through marriage, a Silvish nobleman marrying a Savoyard noblewoman. Dimidiation puts the husband's arms on the left-hand side, so there you go.

All of this is subject to change, by the way. Over time, I'll work my way down through different levels of detail, and my story will need changing, which may change what flag/arms designs make sense.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 08 Sep 2015 09:40
by Thrice Xandvii
That makes sense. I don't really know why I felt that way in the first place though. I mean, generally, prominent features end up on the top of the hoist so that flapping doesn't diminish them as much... So even without your rationale, your placement makes sense. *shrug*

Re: Silvish

Posted: 09 Sep 2015 07:04
by Dormouse559
I was researching possibilities for borders, and the potential area for Silvia is much larger than I anticipated. On this map of the Savoie department, it could comprise the areas labeled 1, 5, 6 and 8.

Image

It's funny because that's 1,700 km2, several times larger than Andorra, but the region is mountainous, so it only has a population of 52,000. Andorra's is 85,000. What would that be? Microstate or very small state? Of course, if the area had become a country, that would proabably affect the population numbers, but you've got to start somewhere.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 09 Sep 2015 22:49
by qwed117
Dormouse559 wrote:I was researching possibilities for borders, and the potential area for Silvia is much larger than I anticipated. On this map of the Savoie department, it could comprise the areas labeled 1, 5, 6 and 8.

Image

It's funny because that's 1,700 km2, several times larger than Andorra, but the region is mountainous, so it only has a population of 52,000. Andorra's is 85,000. What would that be? Microstate or very small state? Of course, if the area had become a country, that would proabably affect the population numbers, but you've got to start somewhere.
Mini state, akin to Luxembourg

Re: Silvish

Posted: 09 Sep 2015 23:22
by Dormouse559
qwed117 wrote:Mini state, akin to Luxembourg
Mmm yeah. I considered that. I guess I wasn't sure because Luxembourg is quite a bit larger in land area, with more than 10 times more people.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 16 Sep 2015 01:48
by Dormouse559
New orthography notes:
1) /gl/ is spelled <ghl> to distinguish it from <gl> /e̯(l)/. Some words containing <ghl> are "ghlacia" (ice), "ghlêsa" (church), and "resenghlâ" (to resemble).

2) When a short vowel precedes consonant letters that would suggest it is long (dark letters), a silent <t> is often inserted before or among the consonants. Since <t> is a light letter, the rules listed in the orthophonology section dictate that the vowel becomes short. Examples of this are: vilatgi /veˈladʑe/ (*<vilagi> would be /veˈlaːdʑe/), statdi /ˈstade/ (*<stadi> = /ˈstaːde/).
A minimal pair distinguished like this is "songi" /ˈsõːdʑe/ (to_dream-1SG.SBJV) vs. "sontgi" /ˈsõdʑe/ (dream [noun])

Re: Silvish

Posted: 16 Sep 2015 04:39
by clawgrip
Nice, I like that you have a defined geographic location for your language now.

Re: Silvish

Posted: 16 Sep 2015 06:18
by shimobaatar
Dormouse559 wrote:New orthography notes:
1) /gl/ is spelled <ghl> to distinguish it from <gl> /e̯(l)/. Some words containing <ghl> are "ghlacia" (ice), "ghlêsa" (church), and "resenghlâ" (to resemble).

2) When a short vowel precedes consonant letters that would suggest it is long (dark letters), a silent <t> is often inserted before or among the consonants. Since <t> is a light letter, the rules listed in the orthophonology section dictate that the vowel becomes short. Examples of this are: vilatgi /veˈladʑe/ (*<vilagi> would be /veˈlaːdʑe/), statdi /ˈstade/ (*<stadi> = /ˈstaːde/).
A minimal pair distinguished like this is "songi" /ˈsõːdʑe/ (to_dream-1SG.SBJV) vs. "sontgi" /ˈsõdʑe/ (dream [noun])
[+1] I quite like the looks of some of these words, particularly "ghlêsa", "vilatgi", and "sontgi".

Re: Silvish

Posted: 17 Sep 2015 05:26
by Dormouse559
clawgrip wrote:Nice, I like that you have a defined geographic location for your language now.
Yeah, it's nice. The Silvish-speaking community will likely go beyond the country's borders, but Silvia is the only place where it's an official language.
shimobaatar wrote: [+1] I quite like the looks of some of these words, particularly "ghlêsa", "vilatgi", and "sontgi".
Yay! The <t> thing makes those words look a lot more Catalan/Occitan (which I don't mind at all).