Page 1 of 2

Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 22 Oct 2015 23:15
by Shemtov
The langauge of an alien species called the Tanhiir.

/p ⁿb p̺ ⁿb̺ t ⁿd ʈ ⁿɖ k/ < p b pt bd t d th dh k/

/ m m̺ n ɳ ŋ/ <m mn n nh ng>

/f ṽ ɸ̺ β̺ ̃s z̃ ʂ ʐ̃ x ɣ̃/ <f v fs vz s z sh zh h g>

/ɹ ɻ w j/ <r rh w y>



/a i u/ <a i u>

/a: i: u:/ <aa ii uu>

/ã ĩ ũ/ <ã ĩ ũ/

/a̤ i̤ ṳ̤/ <ä ï ü>

Phonotactics:
CVC

Morphosyntactical ideas:
SOV
Tri-Lateral roots
Noun case marked non-concatavnivly (SP)

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 25 Oct 2015 02:10
by shimobaatar
Looks cool in terms of phonemes and the orthography; hopefully we get to see more of the language sometime in the future.
Shemtov wrote:Noun case marked non-concatavnivly (SP)
Sorry, as I'm sure this should be obvious, but what does "SP" stand for here?

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 25 Oct 2015 02:29
by thaen
shimobaatar wrote:Looks cool in terms of phonemes and the orthography; hopefully we get to see more of the language sometime in the future.
Shemtov wrote:Noun case marked non-concatavnivly (SP)
Sorry, as I'm sure this should be obvious, but what does "SP" stand for here?
I would think it means something along the lines of "spelling" referencing his uncertainty regarding the accuracy of the way he spelled the previous word. But I could be rong (SP)

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 25 Oct 2015 05:44
by shimobaatar
thaen wrote: I would think it means something along the lines of "spelling" referencing his uncertainty regarding the accuracy of the way he spelled the previous word. But I could be rong (SP)
Ah, OK. Thank you.

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 29 Oct 2015 02:37
by Shemtov
Nouns:
Simple nouns (those not derived from Verbal derived stems or other nouns) mostly (85% of the time) follow the pattern CVCiiC. The first vowel in these simple nouns determine the case. Most noun roots double as verbal and/or adjectival roots. For example MN-S-H means "to speak"
The Cases:
Nominative: CaCiiC
Accusative: CuCiiC
Dative: CäCiiC
Genitive: CuuCiiC
Locative: CiiCiiC
Ablative: CiCiiC
Allative: CĩCiiC
Perlative: CïCiiC
Instrumentive: CaaCiiC
Translative: CũCiiC

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 29 Oct 2015 02:56
by Ahzoh
shimobaatar wrote:
Shemtov wrote:Noun case marked non-concatavnivly (SP)
Sorry, as I'm sure this should be obvious, but what does "SP" stand for here?
It means "spelling" and the correct spelling of that word is concatenatively

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 29 Oct 2015 03:13
by Shemtov
Notes on roots:
<y w> cannot occur as radicals. <r rh> can only occur as the final radical in a root.

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 31 Oct 2015 02:28
by shimobaatar
Shemtov wrote:Nouns:
Simple nouns (those not derived from Verbal derived stems or other nouns) mostly (85% of the time) follow the pattern CVCiiC. The first vowel in these simple nouns determine the case. Most noun roots double as verbal and/or adjectival roots. For example MN-S-H means "to speak"
The Cases:
Nominative: CaCiiC
Accusative: CuCiiC
Dative: CäCiiC
Genitive: CuuCiiC
Locative: CiiCiiC
Ablative: CiCiiC
Allative: CĩCiiC
Perlative: CïCiiC
Instrumentive: CaaCiiC
Translative: CũCiiC
Cool. If you don't mind my asking, do any of the cases have uses that aren't commonly associated with their names, so to speak?
Ahzoh wrote: It means "spelling" and the correct spelling of that word is concatenatively
Yeah, that's the meaning thaen gave above, too. You guys are probably correct, I'd imagine.
Shemtov wrote:Notes on roots:
<y w> cannot occur as radicals. <r rh> can only occur as the final radical in a root.
[+1] Interesting.

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 31 Oct 2015 14:58
by CMunk
Shemtov wrote:p̺ ⁿb̺ ɸ̺ β̺
How can bilabials be apical? I know you don't mean labiodental, because you have /f and ʋ/. Are they linguolabial? Or is it a completely alien sound?

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 01:47
by Shemtov
CMunk wrote:
Shemtov wrote:p̺ ⁿb̺ ɸ̺ β̺
How can bilabials be apical? I know you don't mean labiodental, because you have /f and ʋ/. Are they linguolabial? Or is it a completely alien sound?
The combination of a bilabial and the apical diacritic seems to be used for "labiolingual" in the literature I've read.
Also,it's not /ʋ/ it's a nasalised /v/.

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 02:01
by Shemtov
shimobaatar wrote:
Shemtov wrote:Nouns:
Simple nouns (those not derived from Verbal derived stems or other nouns) mostly (85% of the time) follow the pattern CVCiiC. The first vowel in these simple nouns determine the case. Most noun roots double as verbal and/or adjectival roots. For example MN-S-H means "to speak"
The Cases:
Nominative: CaCiiC
Accusative: CuCiiC
Dative: CäCiiC
Genitive: CuuCiiC
Locative: CiiCiiC
Ablative: CiCiiC
Allative: CĩCiiC
Perlative: CïCiiC
Instrumentive: CaaCiiC
Translative: CũCiiC
Cool. If you don't mind my asking, do any of the cases have uses that aren't commonly associated with their names, so to speak?
The Translative case can be used as a benefactive when applied to proper nouns. With nouns of location, The Instrumentive, Genitive, Dative and Translative cases can be the equivalents of the Locative, Allative, Ablative and perlative cases with the meaning of "The environs of". So,for example:
Wädũhiirh
Wä-dũhiirh
LOCATION-TRANS\prayer
"[going] around the Temple"

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 02:02
by qwed117
Shemtov wrote:
CMunk wrote:
Shemtov wrote:p̺ ⁿb̺ ɸ̺ β̺
How can bilabials be apical? I know you don't mean labiodental, because you have /f and ʋ/. Are they linguolabial? Or is it a completely alien sound?
The combination of a bilabial and the apical diacritic seems to be used for "labiolingual" in the literature I've read.
Also,it's not /ʋ/ it's a nasalised /v/.
I think it has a separate diacritic, namely ̼ . Unless, it's labiolingual, and not linguolabial like I assume it to be. After all, it's an alien language.

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 02:23
by Shemtov
What I read seems to indicate that  ̼ is used with the corresponding alveolar, and the apical diacritic with the corresponding labial.
Then again my source IS Wikipedia.....

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 02:32
by qwed117
Shemtov wrote:What I read seems to indicate that  ̼ is used with the corresponding alveolar, and the apical diacritic with the corresponding labial.
Then again my source IS Wikipedia.....
I just use the linguolabial diacritic for both. [:x] Am I a bad person? [xD]

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 02:52
by Shemtov
A quick note on phonotactics:
Labiolinguals cannot occur syllable-finally, so if they occur in a pattern with them as the final consonant, they are followed by a <a> (except in one process, see later in this post). Some dialects distinguish this <a> from the phoneme /a/ by pronouncing the extra one as a schwa, but this is not standard. Similarly, geminated labiolinguals are pronounceed as a b ilabial-labiolingual cluster.

Plural:
The Plural is formed by The Pattern CVCiCi. Thus
Mnasiih
"language"
Mnasihi
"Languages"

Dual:
The dual is only used for common pair. It's pattern is the plural with the final radical placed as a coda after the final /i/. If the last radical is labiolingual, the final consonant becomes bilabial:
Shabiib
"Horn"*

Shabibi
"Horns"

Shabibib
"Pair of horns"

Kaziipta
"Hand"
Kazipti
"Hands
Kaziptip
"Pair of hands"



*The speakers have horns

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 02:57
by qwed117
Personally, I'm just amazed at the fact that we somehow came up with the same romanization for a limguolabial. Then again, if more people used them, I guess I wouldn't be too surprised. Overall, the language looks very aesthetically pleasing, in stark contrast to dishashta.

Ptiptepta " I am habitually you"

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 01 Nov 2015 22:28
by shimobaatar
Shemtov wrote: The Translative case can be used as a benefactive when applied to proper nouns. With nouns of location, The Instrumentive, Genitive, Dative and Translative cases can be the equivalents of the Locative, Allative, Ablative and perlative cases with the meaning of "The environs of". So,for example:
Wädũhiirh
Wä-dũhiirh
LOCATION-TRANS\prayer
"[going] around the Temple"
That's really cool; thanks for the explanations!
Shemtov wrote:A quick note on phonotactics:
Labiolinguals cannot occur syllable-finally, so if they occur in a pattern with them as the final consonant, they are followed by a <a> (except in one process, see later in this post). Some dialects distinguish this <a> from the phoneme /a/ by pronouncing the extra one as a schwa, but this is not standard. Similarly, geminated labiolinguals are pronounceed as a b ilabial-labiolingual cluster.
Shemtov wrote: Dual:
The dual is only used for common pair. It's pattern is the plural with the final radical placed as a coda after the final /i/. If the last radical is labiolingual, the final consonant becomes bilabial:
These rules are quite interesting as well. I like the variety of ways they can come into play. Are geminate labiolingual consonants spelled as if they were bilabial-labiolingual clusters, or are they just pronounced that way?

(Also, I assume that labiolingual consonants and linguolabial consonants are just two names for the same concept, not two separate concepts?)

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 03 Nov 2015 01:50
by Shemtov
Verbs:
There are two kinds of Verb Patterns, Tense Patterns and Mood Patterns. The Mood Patterns do not mark tense; if tense is marked the verb is Indicative, except in verb chaining.
Tense patterns:
Past: CaCãC
Distant past (before any Tuunhiir alive was alive):CiiCãC
Present: CaCaC
Future: CüCaaC

Tense Patterns also exist for the Passive voice:
Past: CĩCãC
Distant past (before any Tuunhiir alive was alive):CiC:ãC
Present: CaC:aCa
Future: CaCäC


Mood Patterns:
imperative: CĩC:aC
Jussive: CäCuuC
Interrogative: CaC:uuCa
Conditional: CuuCaaC (used as a protasis with an Indicative apodeisis)
Assumptive:CiiC:aaC
Potential: CiiCaCi
Dubitative: CüC:aaC
Optative: CïCiCuu


"Person" marking:
"Person" does not exist in Tuunhiir Mnasiih as it does in Human languages. Instead, it marks animacy of the Subject. However, the animate subjects are distinguished by a cultural view of whether or not they are participating in the needs of the community by there action. This is called "Communal" and "Individual". The Subject is marked by a prefix on the verb, along with the subject's number. Dual may be treated as singular or plural, depending on pragmatics, but that's a separate post.
Communal singular: yü
Communal plural: yaa
Individual singular: waa
Individual plural: wã
Inanimate singular: yu
Inanimate plural: yã

The copular Verb -M-T:
The copular verb M-T is used as the copula, but is marked like other verbs. Because it is Biliteral, it takes a prosthetic dummy radical at the front: <y> if the first syllable's vowel is a high vowel, <w> if it's a rounded vowel, and <r> or <rh> for all others (<rh> is used only for the Interrogative)

Verb chaining:
To express both tense and mood, a mood verb is followed by a tense verb. They share tense and mood. If the verbs are meant to be separate, the second verb is prefixed with the "person" prefix, as in verb chains, only the first verb takes the "person" prefix. If only one verb is semantically necessary, but the speaker wishes to specify both tense and mood, the copular verb can be used as a dummy verb to show tense.

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 03 Nov 2015 02:05
by Shemtov
An example sentence:
Dhafipi Tuunhiir Mnusiih yaazakkuupta mnüsaah?
Dhafipi Tuunhiir Mnusiih yaa-zakkuupta mnüsaah ?
PLR\human GEN\Tanhiir ACC\language COMNL.PLR-INTER\learn FUT\speak
"Will humans learn to speak Tuunhiir Mnasiih?

Re: Tuunhiir Mnasiih scratchpad

Posted: 03 Nov 2015 06:41
by Shemtov
Adjectives:
Adjectives follow nouns. They take the same case as the noun, though all the Locative cases take the Locative case. Their pattern is CVCïCu.
Dhuufiip shuubïrhu pafsiirh zakïptu dĩhhaf
GEN\human GEN\quick book easy IMP\destroy
"Destroy the quick human's easy book!"