Challenge to David J. Peterson

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Locked
HoskhMatriarch
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 May 2015 17:48

Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 27 Mar 2016 03:55

David J. Peterson thinks morphemes don't exist. Therefore, I will pay him a billion dollars if he does this:

Make a highly polysynthetic language of the compositionally polysynthetic type. It has to have about as many root words in open classes, which consist of nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, and derivational affixes as English or Latin. It also has productive noun + noun compounding, object incorporation, subject incorporation, locative incorporation, instrument incorporation, adverb incorporation, and root serialization, all of unlimited length. Verbs conjugate for the maximum number of categories that WALS recognizes. Now, make me a big table of word forms of every possible form of a single transitive verb that can incorporate anything, both derivationally and inflectionally. That means you have to not only inflect a verb for all 13 categories (which alone will be millions of verb forms), you have to incorporate every possible object, location, instrument, and adverb into it, which includes all the compound words you can make for the objects and locations, and serialize it with every other verb root, into massive poly-root constructions of 10+ verbs and permutations of those verbs. We're looking at probably more word forms than stars in the Milky Way Galaxy for a single verb; effectively and infinite number of forms for a single verb. Do we have a deal?
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 6255
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 01:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Ahzoh » 27 Mar 2016 05:26

Pretty sure he doesn't visit this site.
Image Ӯсцӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Vṛḵažaẇ (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3829
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 27 Mar 2016 05:55

I'd like to see your half of the deal up front. It'd be fun to see a photo of that much cash.
Last edited by Thrice Xandvii on 27 Mar 2016 08:45, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Micamo
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7201
Joined: 05 Sep 2010 18:48
Contact:

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Micamo » 27 Mar 2016 06:31

I get what you're doing here, but polysynthetic languages aren't even that big of a challenge to a word-and-paradigm analysis: The standard method to deal with such things is you say that a paradigm isn't entirely kept in the brain, but rather is only partially kept there (of the forms you hear most for particular noun and verb roots) and the rest is constructed on-the-fly through a process of analogy with similar paradigms. It's inconvenient and loses much of the elegance and theoretical appeal of word-and-paradigm, but no more so than the gymnastics you have to go through to explain, say, suppletive paradigms in a strict item-and-arrangement analysis.

Also if you want to say "word-and-paradigm analysis is stupid", why not just say that? Why bring Peterson into this?
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

My shitty twitter

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5702
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Lao Kou » 27 Mar 2016 07:40

HoskhMatriarch wrote:David J. Peterson thinks morphemes don't exist. Therefore, I will pay him a billion dollars if he does this: [snip] Do we have a deal?
You might like joining the Conlang Mailing List, challenging him directly, and putting a Master's in Linguistics in his place over there :roll:, rather than setting him up as your straw man here.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4595
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Creyeditor » 27 Mar 2016 13:03

Well, if you are brave enough write him a mail, you should be able to find his e-mail address somewhere on the internet. He's a nice guy, especially to fellow conlangers. If you write a friendly request, his answer will be friendly, I guess.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2005
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by masako » 27 Mar 2016 13:26

HoskhMatriarch,

I get the feeling that while setting up your straw-man you've also stumbled into a bit of green jelly. I know David, I've talked with David, I get the sense that he would smile at you and say something nice and promptly walk away. In the last 5 years, he's created at least 14 languages for no fewer than 9 projects, and written three books. He's most likely not interested in your hollow challenge and as has been said will likely never see it.

Image

User avatar
Lambuzhao
korean
korean
Posts: 7798
Joined: 13 May 2012 01:57

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Lambuzhao » 27 Mar 2016 13:30

From all his projects, hasn't he amassed a billion dollars already? [B)]

User avatar
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2005
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by masako » 27 Mar 2016 13:38

Lambuzhao wrote:From all his projects, hasn't he amassed a billion dollars already? [B)]
I don't think so. In all seriousness, my guess is that a consultant's fee for a TV program is no more than 1/4 mil p/y. So, give him 4 thousand years or so.

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3486
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by elemtilas » 27 Mar 2016 15:40

HoskMatriarch wrote:David J. Peterson thinks morphemes don't exist.
Thrice Xandvii wrote:I'd like to see your half of the deal up front. It'd be fun to see a photo of that much cash.
I see we're still gnawing away at that old bone... I thought this business about morphemes not existing was dealt with in that other thread (about how people are approaching conlanging)?

Anyway, as a matter of interest to all and sundry, our firm (Dewey, Cheatham and Howe, LLC) have just this week end received of our courier from our Harare branch, the requisite sum of front money so that the challenge may now proceed apace.

Image
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera

User avatar
Lambuzhao
korean
korean
Posts: 7798
Joined: 13 May 2012 01:57

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Lambuzhao » 27 Mar 2016 16:54

masako wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:From all his projects, hasn't he amassed a billion dollars already? [B)]
I don't think so. In all seriousness, my guess is that a consultant's fee for a TV program is no more than 1/4 mil p/y. So, give him 4 thousand years or so.
You say 'one million', and I say 'one billion'
Billion, million, mother-loving vigintillion
Let's call the morpheme off!

[xP]

cromulant
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 157
Joined: 13 Jan 2012 00:04

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by cromulant » 27 Mar 2016 18:02

The reason your challenge is impossible has nothing to do with any problem in Peterson's analysis. The problem is time. He simply won't have enough time in his natural lifespan to coin 100 billion words, or even one billion words. This has nothing to do with whether morphemes exist or not.

(If he does manage to do this, I don't think 1B is nearly enough compensation.)

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4595
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Creyeditor » 27 Mar 2016 18:10

Well he could write something like a word form generator. I don't know if this counts as morphemes [:D]
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

cromulant
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 157
Joined: 13 Jan 2012 00:04

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by cromulant » 27 Mar 2016 18:21

That's true. This is actually a pretty easy billion for DP!

KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 640
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 28 Mar 2016 01:23

Maybe if you have really strong faith in morphemes, it doesn't matter if people say morphemes don't exist: you know they exist, and that's what matters. Other people have chosen a life without morphemes and you can only hope it's best for them. [;)]

Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2580
Joined: 22 May 2012 02:05

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Keenir » 28 Mar 2016 05:55

Lambuzhao wrote:
masako wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:From all his projects, hasn't he amassed a billion dollars already? [B)]
I don't think so. In all seriousness, my guess is that a consultant's fee for a TV program is no more than 1/4 mil p/y. So, give him 4 thousand years or so.
You say 'one million', and I say 'one billion'
Billion, million, mother-loving vigintillion
Let's call the morpheme off!

[xP]
Second verse, (same as) the first?
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2580
Joined: 22 May 2012 02:05

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Keenir » 28 Mar 2016 05:59

HoskhMatriarch wrote:David J. Peterson thinks morphemes don't exist. Therefore, I will pay him a billion dollars if he does this:
first rule of westerns, hostage films, and other things: never ever issue a reward you can't award right out of the gate.
Do we have a deal?
Is it irony that this challenge is
* coming from someone who has never posted more than whisps of a conlang
* to someone who (as has been stated) has multiple books in bookstores & libraries, and multiple conlangs accessible online and in tv
?
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

cntrational
roman
roman
Posts: 953
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 03:59

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by cntrational » 29 Mar 2016 11:46

this is rather dramatic, isn't it
Thrice Xandvii wrote:I'd like to see your half of the deal up front. It'd be fun to see a photo of that much cash.
Image

User avatar
Ossicone
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3696
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 04:20
Location: I've heard it both ways.
Contact:

Re: Challenge to David J. Peterson

Post by Ossicone » 05 Apr 2016 19:27

Modicone: Locking this. It's just at the edge flaming and trolling IMO.

Locked