Quick Diachronics Challenge

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qwed117
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 21 Aug 2017 03:09

sangi39 wrote:And as for realism... Really? Other than a couple of typos here and there I don't see any individual sound changes that are inherently unrealistic
I think I was referring to the branching that you proposed being rather strange, splitting things up when there was no reason to. What I meant was that you were trying to connect the hypothesized word in a manner that seemed more like you were doing small step jumps to get to the end result without any thought about parsimony or whether the changes in each language seem consistent.

Would anyone be unhappy if I were to reveal the treeing, but not the word?
Spoiler:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 21 Aug 2017 03:36

qwed117 wrote:
sangi39 wrote:And as for realism... Really? Other than a couple of typos here and there I don't see any individual sound changes that are inherently unrealistic
I think I was referring to the branching that you proposed being rather strange, splitting things up when there was no reason to. What I meant was that you were trying to connect the hypothesized word in a manner that seemed more like you were doing small step jumps to get to the end result without any thought about parsimony or whether the changes in each language seem consistent.
Ohhh, well that makes sense [:)] As I said, I wasn't really looking at branching when I came up with by proto-word, but until I saw your last post, I'd been working on making it more consistent, while now I have no idea [:P]


qwed117 wrote:Would anyone be unhappy if I were to reveal the treeing, but not the word?
Is it wrong that I'd like to see how everyone decides to branch this rather than having it revealed. At least part of the reason I enjoy these challenges it how different people come to different results that, in the absence of any other evidence, actually look like they make some sort of sense.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 21 Aug 2017 23:25

So here is my second guess, based only on the diachrometric method and not on regular sound correspondences, subgroupings and sound changes like the last one (I admit, I assumed a lot of fortition)
Here's my idea about homologous parts:

Code: Select all

    ABCDEFG H
1.  fro   i n
2.  ŋ ɯx  ʌ ʒ
3.  ŋ ɵð  ɤɤʁ
4.    æθr uː
5.  frig  ʌ n
6.  x eθ  ɵ n
7.  h attro ŋ
8.  h əttrʌ n
9.    yʑ  ɯ̃
10.    ð  oːɲ
11.   ɛz  ĩ
12. gʒɛh  y n
A: I am really not sure where the /f/ came from. /x/,/h/,/ŋ/ and /g/ seems to hint at *g IMO.
B: If we look at 12. this might have been the original position of *r, since it yielded /r/ and /ʒ/.
C: The first vowel. We've got nearly everything here, but since I assume sesquisyllabicity, this has to be either *a or *i. My feeling somehow tells me *a since there are only two high vowels in the descendants.
D: There seem to be two groups involved here. /tt/,/z/ and the other coronals can be traced back to *tt, but /h/, /g/ and /x/ look different from the rest. Maybe a cluster *ttk?
E-F: I will just assume that the /r/s here come from some kind of weird metathesis. I mean why not?
G: Again, this is rather hard. The descendants have front and back, rounded and unrounded, high and mid, and tense and lax vowels. There are no low vowels and there are no front mid vowels. Based on the following statistics I will assume *ɤ here.
  • 3/12 front
    8/12 back
    1/12 central
    7/12 unrounded
    5/12 rounded
    5/12 high
    7/12 mid
H: This again looks like *g because it yields /ŋ/,/ʁ/ and /ʒ/.

So, all in all my second guess is *grattkɤg. I don't really feel it's better than my first guess though. This crazy initial /f/s really bug me.
Edit: Maybe rather *graktɤg, the gemination could just be assimilation. Also here is a new and detailed grouping.
Spoiler:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 25 Aug 2017 06:04

OK! This is the first challenge I've been able to participate in for some time!

Here comes the long-ass text!
Spoiler:
Groupings:

Group A:

1) ˈfroin
5) ˈfrigʌn

are definitely related, deriving from */ˈfregon/:

*ˈfregon → *ˈfrigon → ˈfrigʌn
*ˈfregon → *ˈfreɣon → ˈ*frejən → ˈ*frəjn → ˈfroin


Group B:

2) ŋɯxʌʒ
3) ŋɵðɤɤʁ

derive from */ŋuθor/~*/ŋuθõr/:

*ŋuθor (loses nasality) → *ŋɯˈxoʐ~*ŋɯˈxor̝ → *nɯˈxʌʒ
*ŋuθõr → *ŋɵˈðoːr (nasality lengthens stressed vowel) → ŋɵˈðɤɤʁ


Group C, the largest of the groups, comprises of

7) hattroŋ
8) həttrʌn
4) æθruː
6) xeθɵn
13) hæθroːn (the recently discovered cognate on the Northern axe)

which all derive from */xaˈt̪ron/~*/xæˈt̪ron/:

*xæˈt̪ron → *xaˈt̪ron → *haˈtron → *hat.ˈtron → hat.ˈtroŋ
*xæˈt̪ron → *xaˈt̪ron → *haˈtron → *hət.ˈtron → hətˈtrʌn



7 and 8 are more closely related to each other, and seem to have split more recently from each other than the others, keeping with the original stress, whereas the other three adopt initial stress:

*xæˈt̪ron
→ *ˈxæt̪ron → *ˈxæθrõn → *ˈhæθrõ(n) → *ˈ(h)æθrũ → ˈæθruː
→ *ˈxæt̪ron → *ˈxeθɤn → ˈxeθɵn
→ *ˈxæt̪ron → *ˈxæθrõn → ˈhæθroːn



Group D:

9) yʑɯ̃
11) ɛzĩ

Group D's evolution is a tad trickier to pin down, for they are obviously related, but the element of the fronting of vowels leaves this with a head-stratcher. The protoform I put is */ˈheʐun/, but getting from this to these two forms is messier.

There are two possible paths:

a)
*/ˈheʐun/
*ˈweʐun (unconditional change from h → w)
--→ *ˈwiʑun → *ˈyʑun → *ˈyʑũ(n) → ˈyʑɯ̃
--→ *ˈøʑyn → *ˈøzyn → *ˈøzĩn → ˈɛzĩ


or

b)
*/ˈheʐun/
→ *ˈhiʐun → *ˈ(h)yʑun → *ˈyʑũ(n) → *ˈyʑɯ̃
→ *ˈheʐun → *ˈ(h)øʑyn → ˈøʑyn → ˈøzin → ˈøzĩ(n) → ˈɛzĩ



Either way, I feel some confidence in the protoform for this pair.

So far, we have

Group A with */ˈfregon/
Group B with */ŋuθor/~*/ŋuθõr/
Group C: */xaˈt̪ron/~*/xæˈt̪ron/
Group D:*/ˈheʐun/

And now, the outliers: /gʒɛhyn/ (the other recently uncovered cognate from the Southern Tablet) and /ðoːɲ/

I originally chocked up /ðoːɲ/ to be the result of a front vowel that was broken up into a diphthong, something like
ðøn > ðoin > ðoːɲ ,
the lengthening of [o] for the loss of -i-, but some things didn't quite add up, especially with the indication that a lot of the OG protoform's first syllable, if not all of it, is completely eroded away.

After staring at these reconstructions for far longer than I'd like to admit, I came to the conclusion that both */ˈfregon/ and /gʒɛhyn/ had metathesis occur early on, though not in the same way, which led me to reconstruct:

*/ŋ̊aˈt̪ron/~*/ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ as the OG Protoform:


*/ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ → */ˈŋæt̪ron/ → */ˈgeθron/ → */ˈθregon/ → (Group A PF) */ˈfregon/
*/ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ → */ˈŋæt̪ron/ → */ˈŋeθrun/ → ˈ/geθryn/ → */ˈgrʲeθyn/ → /ˈgʒɛhyn/

which leads me to show how the other protoforms (PFs) are derived from this:

*/ŋ̊aˈt̪ron/ → */ŋoˈt̪ron/ → */ŋoˈθrõ(n)/ → (Group B PF) */ŋuˈθõr/
*/ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ → */xæˈt̪ron/~*/xaˈt̪ron/ (Group C)
*/ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ → */ˈxæd̪ron/ → */ˈheɖun/ → */ˈheʐun/ (Group D)

And I chock up ðoːɲ as coming about like so:

*/ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ → */xæˈt̪ron/ → */həˈθurn/ → */əˈðujn/ → */əˈðojn/ → /ðoːɲ/
And the TLDR spoiler:
Spoiler:
OG Protoform: */ŋ̊æˈt̪ron/ ~ */ŋ̊aˈt̪ron/

This one was quite the doozy, especially with introducing the newly uncovered cognates. I can't wait to be proven wrong!
Edit: Qwed, could you also tell us who's closer, so we have an idea of what's right and wrong? I mostly saw what was wrong with the reconstructions coming from your criticisms, so it would definitely help to have that sense of direction!
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by alynnidalar » 25 Aug 2017 16:50

Inkcube, I like your theories a lot. In particular, I find your explanation for the origin of /f/ very satisfying!

(I don't actually participate in these things, as my theories would be hilariously incorrect due to my inexperience, but I really enjoy reading what everyone else has to say and seeing if any of my personal ideas line up with them. My idea for /f/ was something like /g~ŋ/ -> /x/ -> /f/, with /r/ coming from metathesis, but your theory of the whole kit and caboodle metathesizing works way better.)

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 25 Aug 2017 23:54

alynnidalar wrote:Inkcube, I like your theories a lot. In particular, I find your explanation for the origin of /f/ very satisfying!

(I don't actually participate in these things, as my theories would be hilariously incorrect due to my inexperience, but I really enjoy reading what everyone else has to say and seeing if any of my personal ideas line up with them. My idea for /f/ was something like /g~ŋ/ -> /x/ -> /f/, with /r/ coming from metathesis, but your theory of the whole kit and caboodle metathesizing works way better.)
Aw, thank you! I appreciate the sentiment! Join in anyways, making mistakes is how ya learn!
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 26 Aug 2017 22:46

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:
Edit: Qwed, could you also tell us who's closer, so we have an idea of what's right and wrong? I mostly saw what was wrong with the reconstructions coming from your criticisms, so it would definitely help to have that sense of direction!
Right now Aero- is the closest. I'm in Europe right now, so I don't have my notes with me on the evolution, so I'm not able to critique.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 27 Aug 2017 00:26

qwed117 wrote: Right now Aero- is the closest. I'm in Europe right now, so I don't have my notes with me on the evolution, so I'm not able to critique.
Forgive me, but which user is Aero? I can't seem to find his guess for the puzzle.
Edit: Which submission was yours, Aero?
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » 27 Aug 2017 03:38

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:
qwed117 wrote: Right now Aero- is the closest. I'm in Europe right now, so I don't have my notes with me on the evolution, so I'm not able to critique.
Forgive me, but which user is Aero? I can't seem to find his guess for the puzzle.
Edit: Which submission was yours, Aero?
I was getting some déjà vu here, so I decided to search the board for "Aero". My suspicions were correct. About a month ago, something similar happened (qwed117 referring to a user named "Aero" and me having no idea who that was). How soon we forget. [:P]

Anyway, it's Click. Based on how qwed117 semi-frequently talks about using one of the chat sites that have been set up for CBB users, I assume that's Click's username there.

Have fun on your trip, qwed117!

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » 27 Aug 2017 21:42

Yes, that's me! I go by Aero on chat.

I've tweaked my reconstruction a bit in light of qwed's two new words. The changes are mainly concerned with development of *ṭr (and mutual relationships between languages that maintain one of [t θ]) and words whose first consonant is [ŋ]. A full write-up will be posted tomorrow. [:)]

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 27 Aug 2017 23:00

Well, there we go! Your reconstructions do look pretty tight after looking over them again.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » 28 Aug 2017 16:55

This is what I got (I stole crey's r > ʒ /g_ thing [:P] ). I'm kind of pleased with it, but I know there's some weird stuff to it.

Oh, and I wouldn't mind having the order listed, just hoping the next challenge has a map.

Code: Select all

ŋ̊ratuusŋ

	PROTO 13:
	(*)ŋ̊rætuusŋ
		(*)ŋrætuun > (*)grætyn > (*)græʔyn > (13)græhyn
	
		(*)ŋ̊rætuuʒŋ

			PROTO 2-3:
			(*)ŋ̊ættrooʒŋ
				(*)ŋeroʒ > (*)ŋoʀoʒ > (*)ŋoɣʌʒ > (2)ŋɯxʌʒ
				(*)ŋeðooʒ > (3)ŋɵðɤɤʁ

				PROTO 1-5:
				(*)hættrooʒŋ > ættrooʒn > æθrooʒn > frooʒn
					(1)froin
					(*)frogin > (5)frigʌn
 
					PROTO 10-12:
					(*)hættrooŋ
						(10)ðoːŋ
						(12)hæθroon
 
						PROTO 4-6-7-8:
						(*)hættroŋ
							(7)hattroŋ
							(*)æθroː > (4)æθruː
							(*)hettron
								(8)hɘttrʌn
								(*)xettɵn > (6)xeθɵn
	
							PROTO 9-11:
							(*)heron > (*)hɵron
								(*)ɵzɯ̃ 
									(9)yʑɯ̃
									(11)ɛzĩ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » 28 Aug 2017 20:50

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Well, there we go! Your reconstructions do look pretty tight after looking over them again.
Thanks! [:D]


I think this couple of paragraphs should describe the changes I've made to my reconstruction. Write-up under the spoiler.
Spoiler:
I've completely restructured the x-branch based on the similarity between *hæθroːn, which I view as the direct ancestor of Language 4's æθruː, and the small group consisting of Language 7 and Language 8. In my opinion these languages constitute a sub-group inside the x-branch whose closest relatives are Language 10 and Language 6, respectively.

The structure of the x-branch is as follows:
  • *xət̪ɾɤgin
    • *xət̪ɾogin
      • L6 xeθɵn (*xət̪rogin**xeθwənxeθɵn)

        *hət̪ɾogin
        • L10 ðoːɲ (*hət̪rogin**d̪ɹoːjnðoːɲ)

          *hət̪rown
          • *həttron
            • L7 hattroŋ
              L8 həttrʌn
            *hæθroːn
            • L4 æθruː
      *weʑĩ ~ *øʑĩ ~ *ɹeʑĩ (*xət̪rɤgin**əθɹegin*weʑĩ ~ *øʑĩ ~ *ɹeʑĩ)
      • L9 yʑɯ̃
        L11 ɛzĩ
      *frɤgin (*xət̪rɤgin**əθrɤginfrɤgin)
      • L1 froin
        L5 frigʌn
The word gʒɛhyn certainly belongs to a very divergent language, but I suspect that it is closer to the ŋ-branch than to the x-branch. My reconstruction of the ŋ-branch and gʒɛhyn is as follows:
  • *ŋəðɤʁgɪn
    • gʒɛhyn (*ŋəðɤʁgɪn**gəðɛhwɪngʒɛhyn)

      *ŋəðɤʁɣɪ ~ *ŋəðɤʁʒ
      • L2 ŋɯxʌʒ
        L3 ŋɵðɤɤʁ
Overall, I've reconstructed the proto-word as *ñhaṭàrgin /ŋ̊at̪ɤɾgin/.
Spoiler:
I have several sticking points regarding my reconstruction; firstly, I feel that I've resorted to explaining away many difficult developments as *r or *g changing to [w]. I'm also unsure whether the Languages 9 and 11 and the Languages 1 and 5 subgroups form a phylum with the proto-word being something like *θrɤgin, but I've erred at the side of caution and not included it in the write-up. Whether r-metathesis took place in the x-branch or the proto-word has a /ɾ/ + vowel sequence is also debatable.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 31 Aug 2017 22:55

I'm gonna give the victory to Click; it was *ñh·ṭràgun. His first reconstruction was the best. It became slightly less accurate in the second revision though.
There are three primary branches: ñ, x, and g. The g-branch is the hardest to reconstruct because it looks so similar to the x-branch. More details when I get home from my Europe trip. *gʒɛhyn came from the g-branch. The g-branch is important to realizing that the sesquisyllable is a syllabic nasal.
Spoiler:
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What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 31 Aug 2017 23:20

That was a damn close first approximation. Out by, what, two vowels? I don't know how close Click was to being right in terms of the branching of the family and each step of sound changes along the way, but I'd imagine fairly close [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 01 Sep 2017 14:13

sangi39 wrote:That was a damn close first approximation. Out by, what, two vowels? I don't know how close Click was to being right in terms of the branching of the family and each step of sound changes along the way, but I'd imagine fairly close [:)]
It's his first approximation here. It was his second reconstruction, since he messaged me his solution over irc.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 02 Sep 2017 00:58

The actual treeing of the family. Each word will be represented by its number, and the Northern axe will be HN, while the Southern Tablet will be HS

Code: Select all

R----------------1
 |   |  |
 |   |  |--------5
 |   | 
 |   |-----------4
 |   |  |--------7
 |   |     |-----8
 |   |
 |   |-----------6
 |      |---HN---10
 |
 |---------------2
 |   |-----------3
 |
 |---------------9
   |   |
   |   |---------11
   |
   |--------------HS
  • Root
    • 1,4,5,6,7,8,10
      • 1,5
        • 1 /froin/
        • 5 /frigʌn/
      • 4,7,8
        • 4 /æθruː/
        • 7,8
          • 7 /hattroŋ/
          • 8 /həttrʌn/
      • 6,10
        • 6 /xeθɵn/
        • 10 /ðoːɲ/
    • 2,3
      • 2 /ŋɯxʌʒ/
      • 3 /ŋɵðɤɤʁ/
    • 9,11
      • 9 /yʑɯ̃/
      • 11 /ɛzĩ/
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by DesEsseintes » 03 Sep 2017 11:50

So is Click going to make the next challenge?

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 03 Sep 2017 12:31

qwed117 wrote:
Spoiler:
The actual treeing of the family. Each word will be represented by its number, and the Northern axe will be HN, while the Southern Tablet will be HS

Code: Select all

R----------------1
 |   |  |
 |   |  |--------5
 |   | 
 |   |-----------4
 |   |  |--------7
 |   |     |-----8
 |   |
 |   |-----------6
 |      |---HN---10
 |
 |---------------2
 |   |-----------3
 |
 |---------------9
   |   |
   |   |---------11
   |
   |--------------HS
  • Root
    • 1,4,5,6,7,8,10
      • 1,5
        • 1 /froin/
        • 5 /frigʌn/
      • 4,7,8
        • 4 /æθruː/
        • 7,8
          • 7 /hattroŋ/
          • 8 /həttrʌn/
      • 6,10
        • 6 /xeθɵn/
        • 10 /ðoːɲ/
    • 2,3
      • 2 /ŋɯxʌʒ/
      • 3 /ŋɵðɤɤʁ/
    • 9,11
      • 9 /yʑɯ̃/
      • 11 /ɛzĩ/
So loss of the Initial consonant happened twice independently? Should have guessed that.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » 03 Sep 2017 13:31

DesEsseintes wrote:So is Click going to make the next challenge?
I'm working on it right now!

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