Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Inkcube-Revolver
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 12 Feb 2017 04:33

Sorry, y'all! Got a bit caught up with work on my end:

LOGLORN, show us what you're made of!
(...hopefully it's normal stuff, and nothing too questionable)
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 17 Feb 2017 02:49

I don't know if you saw the most recent post already, Loglorn, but I picked you to be the next person to provide a map and protoform. If you've changed your mind, someone else should go.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 17 Feb 2017 03:22

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:I don't know if you saw the most recent post already, Loglorn, but I picked you to be the next person to provide a map and protoform. If you've changed your mind, someone else should go.
The email hadn't popped. Next to qwed's mine is a piece of cake.
Edit: Image
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ashtăr Balynestjăr » 17 Feb 2017 06:55

Image

I’m going to guess something like [ˈqẽʈekã].

Proto-Red: *entak
Proto-Yellow: *ŋẽɖgã
Proto-Southern Green: *kenteɕ
Proto-Northern Green: *kẽɖiɕa
Proto-Blue: *ʔˤetxai (or something like that)

The initial consonant appears to have been lost in Red, reduced to a glottal stop in Blue. Both Yellow and Green agree on the fact that it was some kind of dorsal consonant. The initial diphthong in [æeʈxaj] can be explained if the initial consonant was uvular and coloured some sort of front vowel. I’m not aware of any language allowing initial uvular nasals, so I’ll posit a uvular stop that was nasalized in Yellow by a following nasal vowel.

As for the next segment, I already discussed why I think it was a nasal front vowel. Most languages show something like [e] or [ɛ], so that’s what I’ll reconstruct.

The next consonant was a coronal stop of some sort. Yellow, Red and Southern Green show a homorganic nasal before it, but that’s probably just because of the nasal vowel before it. Yellow, Northern Green and Blue all show a retroflex stop.

I assume that the [ɕ] in Green and the [x] in Blue are reflexes of the same segment. There’s an oral front vowel before it in all of Green that was elided in Blue. Yellow seems to have elided it as well, with each language dealing with the consonant cluster differently: [ŋeŋgaŋ] kept this segment and deleted the retroflex stop, and the others deleted this segment. [entak] probably retains the original form; in Green, [q] > [k] and [k] > [ɕ], and in Blue [q] > [ʔ] and [k] > [x].

The last segment was probably a nasal vowel, judging by the reflexes in Yellow. Yellow and Blue both show an [a] in most cases, so I’ll reconstruct that.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 17 Feb 2017 16:54

Yellow, red and blue are groups. Green definitely not so much.

Proto-red is right and Proto-yellow is radically wrong.

Finding out the right protoform is probably easier than explaining the nasals in yellow.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » 17 Feb 2017 19:08

Alright, so first of all, as a tentative guess I'll posit *kenʈʰac by just staring at the map for a while. I'll now write out some thoughts and actually work on reconstructing as I write this post.

I believe there is a major split among the languages based on the retention of the medial nasal:

Image

Notice that I consider ŋeːɖaːŋ to retain this nasal. This because of the next point: A cluster of languages in the top left (yellow in Ashtâr's grouping, which I shall retain) clearly shows some form of ambidirectional nasal spreading, akin to Guaraní. The other words in [+N] do not show this and are otherwise similar enough to posit a clear subdivision of [+N] into two further groups.

[-N] is more tricky. All of [-N] bar jeːɾɛːɕ show a medial retroflex. All show an onset that can be plausibly traced back to *k or *kʰ (it is not immediately clear whether the j- onset of jeːɾɛːɕ is from vowel breaking or palatalization of the onset). It seems however pretty clear that the southern two words can be separated from the rest in a major subgroup, distinguished by the following features:
-Loss of final ɕ
-Debuccalization of initial velar

Thus the new map:

Image

Focusing on each subgroup now:

Red is the most straightforward. The two westernmost lemmas show loss of the initial velar; one of them has lost the coda, the other might have fortified it or retained a more archaic form. Fortition seems more plausible, as the entirety of the quite distant Green also shows final ɕ. The onset can be reconstructed quite plausibly to be *kʰ, with retention in the middle group and lenition elsewhere. I posit both because of this, and because of the vowels, that the middle two form one subgroup versus the other four, leading me to this reconstruction:

Image

Staying within [+N], we then move on to Yellow, spoken in Paraguay and parts of Brazil. These are all quite distinct from each other, but I'd reckon ŋeːɖaːŋ and eːⁿɖaːŋ to be most closely related; it's not really possible to say to which of the other languages that group is closer. I posit this reconstruction:

Image

It's also possible that the *eː in the proto-form was actually short and only became long in branch 1 by compensatory lengthening. However, I posit they were long and that branch 2 had a raising of long vowels. It is possible that the proto-vowels were nasalized, but there's no data to back this up, except the nasal vowels in branch 2, which can be easily explained by the loss of adjacent ŋ.

Now onto the non-nasal half, where we can start with Green:

Green is messy. Two forms (jeːɾɛːɕ, kjuʈjaɕ) are quite divergent from the rest. The vowels in Green are also more over the place than elsewhere, and generally appear to be higher. Based on the lack of an internal retroflex, I'd say jeːɾɛːɕ is the most divergent branch. There's only one clear subgroup: xeɖiɕ and xɛʐiɕ. I'd then say that kɛɖɦiɕ is closest to that, but it's also possible that kɛɖɦiɕ and kʰəʈeɕ form a group.

With both these attempts, I fail to reconstruct a plausible Proto-Green:

Image

It might actually be possible that jeːɾɛːɕ and kjuʈjaɕ fall outside of Green, into a group I shall call J. The aspiration of the medial plosive is only attested in one descendant as breathy voice, so it might not have been there at all, or only in traces. Nevertheless I choose to reconstruct it based on Proto-Red's aspirate. This would make a plausible Proto-Green (sans J) lemma *kʰɛʈʰiɕ

This leaves us with the outlier group, Blue. I can agree with Ashtâr's hypothesis that the vowel breaking was caused by loss of the initial, which would make ʔiʈxa more conservative in the onset. Comparison with the other branches clearly shows that it did however lose its coda, which was lenited in æeʈxaj. I guess I'll just reconstruct Proto-Blue as *ʔiʈxaj

This then leaves us with the following forms:
  • [+N]
  • Proto-Red: *kʰentʰaɕ
  • Proto-Yellow: *ŋeːɳɖaːŋ
  • [-N]
  • Proto-Green: *kʰɛʈʰiɕ
  • Proto-Blue: *ʔiʈxaj
  • Unclassified: jeːɾɛːɕ, kjuʈjaɕ
Assuming my classification is correct, there are two clearly more conservative forms than the others in both branches: Proto-Red and Proto-Green. Evidence from other branches in [-N] indicates that the high vowel in Proto-Green is an innovation, perhaps raising because of the following palatal.

Since I cannot find any motivation for retroflexes to arise, especially not independently in both major branches, I posit that the original word contained at least a retroflex plosive. It's not really possible to tell whether the nasal was also retroflex, but perhaps it makes sense to assume it wasn't, which could explain the common de-retroflexion. Thus, I posit:

*kʰenʈʰaɕ
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

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loglorn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 17 Feb 2017 19:58

Definitely didn't expect the medial nasal to be used as a divider. It isn't.

The internal breaking of Yellow is very good, even though the actual changes are all wrong. The internal breaking of green is not that good, but i admit it is the hardest to tree.

You lumped too much into red, and that stopped you from seeing some stuff.

The reconstruction itself is close, but it's missing some important details.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » 17 Feb 2017 20:19

One thing that I assumed at first but then threw out because it didn't align with my classification (which is now confirmed wrong) is that there are basically two codas:

-A velar stop/nasal (the nasal can be shown to be from the plosive due to guaraní changes)
-A palato-alveolar fricative

The velar is reflected in Proto-Yellow, and in Proto-Entak, which I assume is thus not part of Red after all. The palatal is found everywhere else, with a consistent -ɕ in Red and Green, including the two unclassifieds; and null/j in Blue. This would point to a division like this:

Image

All this would point to a classification more akin to this:

Image

Where the unclassified roots are definitely part of C, and probably belong to a wider Green subbranch, but I can't really place them. Possibly they are split off before the red/green split. That's not to say they're all that close to each other, I could even see kjuʈjaɕ being closer to Blue.

All in all the major adjustment to the reconstruction is that I'd say the final consonant ought to be reconstructed as *c, not *ɕ
Edit: One problem with this classification is that Blue and Green both have to have lost the internal nasal independently of each other, while Red retains it. Perhaps this does point to Green and Blue being closer to each other, but that really doesn't feel right based on the forms.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 17 Feb 2017 21:08

A hint, which probably doesn't help much: both the blue and parts of yellow underwent one same change, independently.
Edit: If i told you which is blue's closest i'd ruin all the fun
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 17 Feb 2017 21:48

I grouped together

A:
kɛɖiɕ
kʰentʰeɕ
kʰendeɕ
kʰəʈeɕ
kjuʈjaɕ


which had me yield *kʰønʈeɕ as a protoform, since the <ju> in the last attested form listed there had me doing double takes. It also seems easier for a verb like *ø to yield either or [e] at some point, as well as having that [k] look like it's going to go under palatalization on that last daughter-form.

B:
xeɖiɕ
xɛʐiɕ
xendʱaɕ
xandaɕ


seems to hint at something like *xænɖeɕ or *xænɖajɕ, possible even *xænɖəjɕ.

I grouped together

C:
ŋeŋgaŋ
ŋeːɖaŋ
eːⁿɖaːŋ
ĩɳɖõ


*ŋenɖaŋ, in which ŋeŋgaŋ's [g] (C2) could be a misheard [ɖ], which would explain the original medial nasal yielding [ŋ].

D:
ʔiʈxa
æaʈxaj


when compared to Group C, indicates that the sound change that happened in both groups was with the initial consonant, for it's not too much of a stretch to say that initial [ŋ] > [ʔ] and deletes in all those forms save for D1. D1 and D2 also indicate in the medial consonants were formerly aspirated, reanalyzing the aspirated consonant as two separate phonemes, indicating: *ŋajCʈʰaj. The change that could've happened independently in both groups could be the deletion of the medial nasal.

C: *ŋenɖaŋ
D: *ŋajCʈʰaj

could possibly yield from *ŋajnʈʰaɟ or *ŋajnʈʰaʝ, but I have my doubts on this.

E:
enta
entak


yields *entak easily enough, so far with

A: *kʰønʈeɕ
B: **xænɖəjɕ
C: *ŋenɖaŋ
D: *ŋajCʈʰaj
E: *entak

If Group A's protoform is correct or close, there's something that would have to have fronted the original vowel, it could've been the [e] in the second syllable, but that might be a bit of a stretch of another stretch.
A and B < *kʰCenʈəjɕ ?
and I grouped C, D, and E to get *ŋajnʈʰæki ??

I'm having trouble deciding whether the original protoform to rule them all is *ŋkajnʈʰekʲ or *kʰjanʈʰeki, but those two seem a tad closer than my original sketch *kʰeɳɖaki.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 17 Feb 2017 22:00

Your reconstructed form is really, i mean really, far off.

Your groups A and B definitely ain't groups.

But, on the other hand, you saw some stuff Adarain hadn't. And actually brought to my attention there's not only one, but two changes that happened independently both in yellow and blue.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 17 Feb 2017 22:22

Every loss in one place is a win somewhere else xD

Back to the drawing board I go!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ashtăr Balynestjăr » 17 Feb 2017 23:24

I’m going to propose that kjuʈjaɕ is actually closest to Adarain’s Red, but not exactly part of it. Presumably, Green split off first with its loss of the medial nasal, and then Red split off from kjuʈjaɕ upon the loss of retroflexion of *t.

It could have lost the aspiration at any time, but I’ll just suppose it was at the beginning: *kʰenʈʰaɕ > *kenʈaɕ.

The *e breaks into *ea, and the following syllable undergoes vowel harmony: *kenʈaɕ > *keanʈaɕ > *keanʈeaɕ. Alternatively, both vowels assimilate toward each other, yielding something which then breaks into *ia: *kenʈaɕ > *kænʈæɕ > *keanʈeaɕ.

The first element of the diphthong is reanalysed as *j, and the first vowel undergoes nasalization, becoming retracted: *kianʈiaɕ > *kjɑ̃ʈjaɕ.

Finally, the *ɑ̃ is raised and loses its nasalization along the way: *kjɑ̃ʈjaɕ > kjuʈjaɕ, similar to the development of the Slavic back yus.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » 18 Feb 2017 02:18

Image

There are some weird changes in there, environments are often implied, and nothing works if ja -> i doesn't happen (which is the most handwavy change in there, je: -> ju at least has the adjacent retroflex as a motivation for backing). I'm going to bed now.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 18 Feb 2017 02:37

The relationships between the branches ain't quite right and you've got more than a couple changes backwards. Details mostly. Think about the backward changes.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 18 Feb 2017 06:50

Loglorn,

From your response to Adarain about the medial nasal not being a focus for dividing the attested forms, it had me notice a pattern that follows quite nicely in my opinion, though I'm not sure if this was the original intention either. Regardless, it's something I picked up on:

Upon further investigation, it seems as though medial [ɖ] and [ʈ] developed from medial clusters of *-[nd]- and *-[nt]- respectfully by coalescence.
Evidence of this comes from about a third of the attested forms having variations of [nt] and [nd] as medials and comparing them to the ones with retroflexes and lost nasals. The ones that have the medial clusters are what I propose to be relexes of the original protoform.

What led me to this conclusion is a single attested form with -ɳɖ- in ĩɳɖõ that would indicate a common nasal, one that would be wrongly placed with retroflexive dentals by nearly everyone involved, making this particular form integral to finding the original protoform. In the following breakdown, I will be as thorough as possible:

First group here has suspected coalescence occuring:
keɖɦiɕ
kʰəʈeɕ
xeɖiɕ
xeʐiɕ
ŋeːɖaːŋ
ĩɳɖõ
eːⁿɖaːŋ
kjuʈjaɕ
ʔiʈxa
æeʈxaj

Second group does not have coalescence:
ŋeŋgaŋ
xendʱaɕ
xandaɕ
kʰentʰeɕ
kʰendeɕ
entak
enta
jeːɾɛːɕ

Group A is the only one that disrupts this division scheme I set up but for the better, consisting of:
ŋeŋgaŋ < *ŋenɖaŋ (I figure this is still correct, as I made note of this in my previous post and you didn't object)
ŋeːɖaŋ < *ŋendaŋ
eːⁿɖaŋ < *ʔendaŋ < *ŋendaŋ
ĩɳɖõ < *ʔinɖɔŋ < *ʔendaŋ
Group A's protoform *ŋendaŋ

Group B:
keɖiɕ
kʰəʈeɕ

with protoform *kʰɛʈʰeɕ

Group C:
xeɖiɕ
xeʐiɕ

with protoform *xeɖiɕ

Group D:
kʰentʰeɕ
kʰendeɕ

with PF: *kʰentʰeɕ

Now, Group D is also very important for being one of the most conservative branches I found throughout this process.

Group E:
ʔiʈxa < *ʔeʈxa(j)
æeʈxaj < *ʔeʈxaj < *ʔentxaj
PF: *ŋentʰaj

Group F:
xendʱaɕ
xandaɕ

PF: *xændʰaɕ

Group G:
entak
enta

PF: *entak

Group H:
kjuʈjaɕ < *kjəntjəɕ < *kentɛɕ
jeːɾɛːɕ < *jendɛCɕ < gjendeCɕ
PF: *kentɛCɕ
I saw that there was lengthening occuring in the second syllable of jeːɾɛːɕ, and I wasn't sure if it was just mimicking the first syllable, which lost its nasal and was why it was lengthened, or if another nasal was in the second syllable, as well. I ended up going with the second possibility, which led to a turning point in my notes.

Now this is where things get a little tricky. According to my hunch, Group B's *kʰɛʈʰeɕ would have truly come from *kʰɛntʰeɕ, Group C's *xeɖiɕ from *xendiɕ, allowing me to group

(B) *kʰɛntʰeɕ
(C) *xendiɕ
(D) *kʰentʰeɕ
(F) *xændʰaɕ

to find *kʰentʰeɕ

(A) *ŋendaŋ
(E) *ŋentʰaj
has me think these two are from *ŋentʰaŋ. Comparing *entak had me believe
(G) *entak < *ʔentak < *ŋentak
with (A), (E), and (G) < *ŋentʰaŋk.

So it all boils down to

*kʰentʰeɕ
*ŋentʰaŋk
*kentɛCɕ


Now this has me stumped right here. Some real hardcore conlangery and tomfoolery is at play, the answer is staring dead at me and I can't seem to find the answer. *Vnkʰentʰæŋk could be the answer for all I know, but that seems like it would be too much of a stretch, even though it could potentially explain what's going on here if I've made it this far with everything checking out well and out.
-Vŋ and -Vɕ are very common endings, in which I originally had thunk that the coda had something along the lines of *-Vki in my first post, but that didn't quite explain the nasal, the thought process behind that being -ki > -gi > -ŋ(i), which wouldn't really happen with a nasal that wasn't even there to begin with, so even I thought that wasn't right. The coda seems to tell of a -Vŋk, which may yield both -Vɕ and -Vŋ more reasonably through lenition and interaction with the adjacent vowel form.

I will leave the original protoform as *[C]ʰentʰæŋk~*kʰentʰæŋk, maybe even *ŋkʰentʰæŋk, I dunno. I'm pretty much stumped at this point, but everything else seems to make sense in my head. Tell me how I did xD
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 18 Feb 2017 13:37

This one is less bizarrely away from the answer, but you've also got some changes backward. And the fact that most of the forms who have the nasal are dental and vice-versa is coincidental.

I gather qweds method would be quite suited to find the protoform, even though wouldn't help treeing the family.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 18 Feb 2017 14:34

I'm still working on the details (and I've not looked at anyone else's work), but it looks almost like it might be *keɳʈek

Code: Select all

keɳʈek > kentek > kʰentek > kʰentak  > xentak  > hentak   > entak    > enta
                                                          > entak    > entak
                          > kʰentex  > kʰenteɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
                                               > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ
                                                          > xendaɕ   > xandaɕ 
                                                                     > xendʱaɕ
         keɳɖek > keɳɖak  > ʔeɳɖaʔ   > ʔeŋgaʔ  > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ
                                     > ŋeɳɖaŋ  > ŋẽɳɖãŋ   > ŋẽ:ɳɖã:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ
                                                                                > e:nɖa:ŋ
                                                                     > ŋĩɳɖõŋ   > ĩɳɖõ
                > keɳɖek  > keɳɖik   > kɛɳɖikʲ > kɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ     > xɛɖiɕ
                                                                     > xɛɖʲiɕ   > xɛɖʐiɕ    > xɛʐiɕ
                                                          > kɛɖʱiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ    > kɛɖɦiɕ
         keʈek     > keʈex   > keʈeɕ > kjeʈex > kjeʈeɕ    > kjəʈjeɕ  > kjuʈjaɕ
                                              > kjeɖeɕ    > kjeɻɛɕ   > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
                                     > kəʈeɕ  > kʰəʈeɕ    > kʰəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ
                   > keʈxe   > ʔeʈxe > ʔiʈxa  > ʔiʈxa     > ʔiʈxa    > ʔiʈxa
                                     > ʔeʈxe: > æeʈxe:    > æeʈxej   > æeʈxaj
Something like that, I'd imagine.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1871
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 18 Feb 2017 16:07

Just a heads up, the initial and final nasals in yellow come from different processes.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet

User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4455
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 18 Feb 2017 16:48

maybe it's something like
/ŋˤeŋdəɲˀ/?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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